Monitors - your thoughts.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 by gef | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
What is your preference between TFT monitors as opposed to conventional monitors for creating themes.
This question is mainly for those who do a lot of graphics.
This question is mainly for those who do a lot of graphics.
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Shameless Designs
Reply #22 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:38 AM
When I clicked on this thread, "Monitors - Your Thoughts" for some reason I was certain I was going to read about some type of Orwellian Big Brother type conspiracy...
At any rate, as a design engineer, I've found over the years that a decent monitor is worth it's weight in gold, and from what I've seen so far, nothing out there now could convince me to give up my ViewSonic P225f. Yes it takes up a lot of room, but so does my girlfriend, and the monitor doesn't complain as much.
Reply #22 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:38 AM
When I clicked on this thread, "Monitors - Your Thoughts" for some reason I was certain I was going to read about some type of Orwellian Big Brother type conspiracy... At any rate, as a design engineer, I've found over the years that a decent monitor is worth it's weight in gold, and from what I've seen so far, nothing out there now could convince me to give up my ViewSonic P225f. Yes it takes up a lot of room, but so does my girlfriend, and the monitor doesn't complain as much.
Jafo
Reply #23 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:45 AM
Reply #23 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:45 AM
Jafo thinks that Shameless Designs is either very brave, very stupid, or his girlfriend is very much not into computers....
GreatSilverWyrm
Reply #24 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:00 AM
Reply #24 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:00 AM
I too, like my nice big Flat-Screen CRT. 
Desk space is a small issue...but, meh
Desk space is a small issue...but, meh
Shameless Designs
Reply #25 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:38 AM
Why should I limit myself? I'm eminently capable of demonstrating both characteristics -- occasionally in the same activity... As for my girlfriend, she claims to be very much into computers... but... but.. they're... [shudder] macintosh...
Reply #25 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:38 AM
| #23 by Admin Jafo - 2/11/2004 2:45:22 AM Jafo thinks that Shameless Designs is either very brave, very stupid, or his girlfriend is very much not into computers.... |
Why should I limit myself? I'm eminently capable of demonstrating both characteristics -- occasionally in the same activity...
As for my girlfriend, she claims to be very much into computers... but... but.. they're... [shudder] macintosh...
IPlural
Reply #27 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:40 AM
Reply #27 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:40 AM
ShamlessDesign, whats you thoughts on Referb's?
I found two sites that sell recertified factory referb's at as low as half the price. Mostly these are leased displays which get serviced and then sold...
I could have picked up a referbed SGI Triniton 21 inch (Sony basically) or ViewSonic 22 inch p220f, Mitsubishi 21 inch Dimondscan or a NEC 22 inch for $299.00, but my wife through a hissy fit...
I found two sites that sell recertified factory referb's at as low as half the price. Mostly these are leased displays which get serviced and then sold...
I could have picked up a referbed SGI Triniton 21 inch (Sony basically) or ViewSonic 22 inch p220f, Mitsubishi 21 inch Dimondscan or a NEC 22 inch for $299.00, but my wife through a hissy fit...
DesignCaddy
Reply #28 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:46 AM
you can say whatever you want online as long as she doesn't know your alias. my gf is also into mac.. she doesn't use the same sites i do.
Reply #28 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:46 AM
| #25 |
you can say whatever you want online as long as she doesn't know your alias. my gf is also into mac.. she doesn't use the same sites i do.
Doreen
Reply #29 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:31 PM
Reply #29 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:31 PM
Doreen goes to find their girlfriends and snitch on them...
Sput
Reply #30 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:41 PM
Reply #30 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 12:41 PM
Hmmm, I'm surprised by the number of people in favour of CRTs. At work I have a dual monitor set up with both running at 1280 @85Hz (one trinitron and I'm not sure of the other) and they look fine. BUT, I've also used 17" LCD screens at a native resolution of 1600x1200 and that looked fantastic. Now if I could have a nice dual LCD setup at that size I'd swap the CRTs out in a flash.
Not the view of hard core graphics users (neither am I...not at work) we've also been deploying 1000's of new machines since last summer, swapping peoples 15/17" crts for new 15" LCDs and WITHOUT EXCEPTION, the users have commented on how much better the display is. They're just everyday Windows users working at 1024x768, but for everyone (who expressed an opinion) to be in favour of LCDs then there must be something in them.
Just as an aside - the reason we opted for LCDs is because we looked hard at the total cost of ownership, and CRTs tend to burn a lot more electricity...I wonder if people have factored that into their decision making when buying something that is cheaper up front? :-?
Not the view of hard core graphics users (neither am I...not at work) we've also been deploying 1000's of new machines since last summer, swapping peoples 15/17" crts for new 15" LCDs and WITHOUT EXCEPTION, the users have commented on how much better the display is. They're just everyday Windows users working at 1024x768, but for everyone (who expressed an opinion) to be in favour of LCDs then there must be something in them.
Just as an aside - the reason we opted for LCDs is because we looked hard at the total cost of ownership, and CRTs tend to burn a lot more electricity...I wonder if people have factored that into their decision making when buying something that is cheaper up front? :-?
Jafo
Reply #32 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:58 PM
Reply #32 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:58 PM
I'll never choose a LCD over a CRT....not while it appears to be acceptable policy/standard to demand a tolerance of failed or dead pixels....refusing to replace what is actual faulty product by arguing it's only a 'little faulty'. To me, one pixel of black [or white] that is 'stuck' means the screen is cactus.
Office-use machines do not need a game's high refresh rates, must do not need Pro graphic's resolution/s, and can be driven by economics of power consumption, but I'm betting a lot of it [changing to LCD] is about creating an impression rather than real practicality......and as for economics.....how about all those now redundant CRTs.......probably ending up as land fill and a damn sight more of an environmental issue than the supposed power reduction...
DesignCaddy
Reply #34 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:49 PM
Reply #34 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:49 PM
my gf's studio display's got one or two of those dead pixels. sucks. like 2,000$ screen.
at least my buddy got lucky with his powerbook.. had a warrenty so they replaced his screen. it was all ghosty.
at least my buddy got lucky with his powerbook.. had a warrenty so they replaced his screen. it was all ghosty.
IPlural
Reply #35 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:57 PM
very true...
Most places will have somewhere to take in old CRTs so they do not leech into the ground water and soil. If not almost all manufactures do recycle old CRTs for some of the usable resources and dispose of the rest in the proper manner.
Reply #35 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:57 PM
| how about all those now redundant CRTs.......probably ending up as land fill and a damn sight more of an environmental issue than the supposed power reduction... |
very true...
Most places will have somewhere to take in old CRTs so they do not leech into the ground water and soil. If not almost all manufactures do recycle old CRTs for some of the usable resources and dispose of the rest in the proper manner.
Shameless Designs
Reply #36 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:22 PM
Reply #36 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:22 PM
IPlural... Over the past 6 years, I have purchased about 20 refurbished monitors that were factory reconditioned by Sony and ViewSonic. The CAD operators, engineers and designers who use them on a daily basis have all been happy with them, and thus far, we only had two of the very first reconditioned monitors fail (after 4+ years). We test them on a routine basis, and to be quite honest, I've been very pleasantly surprised at how well this program has worked out.
Jafo, I'm with you re: uacceptable quality standards for LCD monitors and use by graphic artists, designers or engineers. When we're designing surfaces with complex curves, that have to mate using tolerances as low as +.005 mm, one dead pixel has the potential to ruin my whole month...
I truly think that LCD's that we have now are popular because the average user does NOT have to worry about the kinds of things that can drive an artist, skinner, or engineer crazy. (yes, I realize that for many of us that it's not a long drive
). I think the flat panel fad for now is more about status and looking cool than true functionality. But in a way, I'm grateful, because it has helped drive CRT prices down, at least in the short term.
[Message Edited]
Jafo, I'm with you re: uacceptable quality standards for LCD monitors and use by graphic artists, designers or engineers. When we're designing surfaces with complex curves, that have to mate using tolerances as low as +.005 mm, one dead pixel has the potential to ruin my whole month...
I truly think that LCD's that we have now are popular because the average user does NOT have to worry about the kinds of things that can drive an artist, skinner, or engineer crazy. (yes, I realize that for many of us that it's not a long drive
). I think the flat panel fad for now is more about status and looking cool than true functionality. But in a way, I'm grateful, because it has helped drive CRT prices down, at least in the short term. [Message Edited]
Sput
Reply #37 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:27 PM
Reply #37 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:27 PM
I agree that stuck pixels being considered acceptable by manufacturers is disconcerting...I was surprised that the in situ testing of the new systems we're taking delivery of allows for up to 6 such faulty pixels! BTW, they don't tend to be just black or white as just a single colour can fail leading to pure R,G, B or other combinations of pixels too.
However, isn't it the case that faults like this (if they have any) on LCDs are very noticable because they tend to be digital in nature, where as faults on CRTs tend to be analogue in nature and much harder to spot? How many large CRTs can claim 100% colour purity across the entire image? Or exact geometry for that matter? And people prefer them for engineering?!
As an aside, of the 100+ screens I've witnessed personally now being set up, not one has had even a single failed pixel, which has surprised me.
...and then of course with CRTs you have drift from fluctuating magnetic fields in an area requiring degausing...You know, with this discussion I'm reminded of all the valve amp advocates in the face of the digital revolution I'm betting you all have fancy analogue stereos too huh?
I'm wondering if some of the critisisms about LCDs looking poor is actually because they render an image very crisply, where as for artistic graphics, the innate tendency for the analogue circuits in a CRT to provide a degree of anti-aliasing just by the nature of the technology (phosphors glowing) makes the image look smoother/better?
BTW, refresh rates on LCDs have improved greatly in the past few years (though they refresh in a different way to CRTs so it's not comparing like with like). I used to ignore them when advising people on purchases if they wanted to play games for just that reason, but the latest generations are pretty darn acceptable I had to admit when I tested them...Certainly much better than they used to be, but admittedly still not CRT standard...yet.
The decision we took at work for LCDs wasn't based on good impression, but rather hard figures on TCO from a renowed auditing firm...they /are/ cheaper over the lifetime of a machine than a CRT.
The point about the old CRTs being land fill is a real issue. The EU has decreed that ex-computers are to be treated as toxic waste for some time now, and CRTs have been added to that recently, hence we had to pay for their safe disposal in the contract with the supplier of the new kit - but it still worked out cheaper. Ethically though, it's been difficult to justify to users why we're replacing their perfectly useable screen with a new one. Thankfully, most of the old kit is expected to be recycled and sold on or donated to charities, so they won't be in a landfill...yet.
I think what it comes down to though is that if you have a top of the range CRT it's going to out perform a top of the range LCD for the sorts of things people here wish to use it for, no argument....but I predict that when we all have 4000x3000 screens that theywon't be CRTs...they may not be LCDs either
However, isn't it the case that faults like this (if they have any) on LCDs are very noticable because they tend to be digital in nature, where as faults on CRTs tend to be analogue in nature and much harder to spot? How many large CRTs can claim 100% colour purity across the entire image? Or exact geometry for that matter? And people prefer them for engineering?!
As an aside, of the 100+ screens I've witnessed personally now being set up, not one has had even a single failed pixel, which has surprised me.
...and then of course with CRTs you have drift from fluctuating magnetic fields in an area requiring degausing...You know, with this discussion I'm reminded of all the valve amp advocates in the face of the digital revolution
I'm betting you all have fancy analogue stereos too huh? I'm wondering if some of the critisisms about LCDs looking poor is actually because they render an image very crisply, where as for artistic graphics, the innate tendency for the analogue circuits in a CRT to provide a degree of anti-aliasing just by the nature of the technology (phosphors glowing) makes the image look smoother/better?
BTW, refresh rates on LCDs have improved greatly in the past few years (though they refresh in a different way to CRTs so it's not comparing like with like). I used to ignore them when advising people on purchases if they wanted to play games for just that reason, but the latest generations are pretty darn acceptable I had to admit when I tested them...Certainly much better than they used to be, but admittedly still not CRT standard...yet.
The decision we took at work for LCDs wasn't based on good impression, but rather hard figures on TCO from a renowed auditing firm...they /are/ cheaper over the lifetime of a machine than a CRT.
The point about the old CRTs being land fill is a real issue. The EU has decreed that ex-computers are to be treated as toxic waste for some time now, and CRTs have been added to that recently, hence we had to pay for their safe disposal in the contract with the supplier of the new kit - but it still worked out cheaper. Ethically though, it's been difficult to justify to users why we're replacing their perfectly useable screen with a new one. Thankfully, most of the old kit is expected to be recycled and sold on or donated to charities, so they won't be in a landfill...yet.
I think what it comes down to though is that if you have a top of the range CRT it's going to out perform a top of the range LCD for the sorts of things people here wish to use it for, no argument....but I predict that when we all have 4000x3000 screens that theywon't be CRTs...they may not be LCDs either
Jafo
Reply #38 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:20 PM
Reply #38 Wednesday, February 11, 2004 10:20 PM
Sput....yes, eventually [but not right now], CRT screens WILL be replaced by technology which is actually better in all regards, but naturally there's been a century of CRT development wich the likes of LCD, Plasma, etc needs to catch up to.
I remember the first Sony 19" I ever took a close, really close look at.....I mean nose pressed to glass....and I was stunned by its quality.
One dodgey pixel in a [more expensive] LCD and it's a no-contest.
At the moment...
IPlural
Reply #39 Thursday, February 12, 2004 1:22 AM
all of the high end Graphics CRTs can for one....
soooo
Plasma wOOt as voo would say
Now theres a display for the future...
[Message Edited]
Reply #39 Thursday, February 12, 2004 1:22 AM
| How many large CRTs can claim 100% colour purity across the entire image? Or exact geometry for that matter? And people prefer them for engineering?! |
all of the high end Graphics CRTs can for one....
soooo
Plasma
wOOt as voo would sayNow theres a display for the future...
[Message Edited]
MadPyro
Reply #40 Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:38 PM
Reply #40 Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:38 PM
so far, i have seen nothing that will beat a crt, i want a huge one but i doubt my table will hold it, thats the only down side of crt's
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Reply #21 Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:41 PM
after some quick scouring online i decided i didn't have the funds or critical need to get another trinny, so i went down to staples and picked up a 19" true flat envision to be a big brother for the 17" envision i got a couple weeks ago. i have to say i'm very impressed. for 200$ and 100$ respectively, the monitors are very crisp and have wonderful color (after careful calibration) and are pretty bright. the 17" sits nicely at 75khz at 1280x960 and for that screen size, at that res, text is VERY easy to read and things just look wonderful. i almost didnt go back to the 19". on the 19, though its capable of the same khz at that res, 75khz at 1280 the pixels on the left side kind of split apart looking interlacey and making things distorted. so i drop to 70khz at 1280 and things look great. the trinny had 85khz at 1280 but what can you do, im satisfied. i'd definitly recommend these monitors. i'll tell you in a few years how well they hold up - but from color and brightness you can't beat this price. staples and comp usa carry them.. they seem to be the best consumer buy crts. and they even look nice