Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

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Chickie
Reply #361 Friday, December 12, 2003 5:16 PM
I purchased the subscription. Hope it helps with WC.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #362 Friday, December 12, 2003 5:53 PM
all subscriptions help getting the new servers is the drives goal:)

i think the even the bigger picture is getting the site self sustaining .. that way the devs can worry more abt running the site rather than how to afford the mass bills every month...
HG_Eliminator
Reply #363 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:12 PM
the skinning at this site is unsurpased. these guys make the site. mormegil,pixstudio,frog boy,danillo, and the rest of these skilled artists. id personaly like to thank all of you for ur time and works of art..the skins i have gotten here have made boring days fun. the pleasure my family and i recieve in viewing the various desktops and goodies is unmeasurable. seasons greetings to u all
kona0197
Reply #364 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:18 PM
Karmagirl:

If and when Paypal is set up I will be THE FIRST to donate. In fact I will donate from every Ebay sell I make.

Might not be enough to get a sub but it will help.
WOM
Reply #365 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:41 PM
From where I sit, WC is over 1/2 way to the 500 subscriptions with over 1/2 a month left. So it looks very likely that they will go over 500. So it looks like nothing will change. So enjoy.



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kona0197
Reply #366 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:43 PM
I will still donate just so you guys can not call me a freeloader anymore
XX
Reply #367 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:59 PM
Hmm combo of paxx's idea and joetheblow's idea combined:

Unregistered: View previews.

User 2, less than appenice:
7 days delay, cap set to 50 mb, less than 1 mb downloads only

User 3, apperence or better
24 hours delay, no download cap, no download file size limit

User 4, or journeyman and higher
no delay on downloads.
Jafo
Reply #368 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:59 PM

WOM....things still will need to change...the economic model needs to improve...

An alternative slant on Frogboy's posting of this thread could just be a mild frustration that the 'uptake' of contributions was perhaps an indication that the general membership taken as a whole [the community] was a bit too reticent to actually come forward and be willing to contribute.

It's fantastic that several people are willing to 'donate' subs as prizes, etc.....but in reality the world would be a rosier place if no incentives were necessary.....when a need is felt everyone happily steps in to help out...

As is the norm with most groups, enterprises, communities....there will be those who sit back and leave the problem-solving/help to others....'never mind, someone will fix it if I wait long enough'.

Things go all pear-shaped when EVERYONE thinks exactly the same and no-one at all steps forward to help.

Assuming the massive visitor/user base this site has, one would imagine that a thousand or two new subs per month was a legitimate expectation.  The fact it's apparently not the case presupposes that more 'freeloaders' than imagined make use of the site and its content and the same old bunch of us are carrying the can.

Sure, circumstances differ from one person to the next...and it'd be totally unrealistic to imagine every visitor would/could register, etc....but the number of those who do to those who do not is 'disheartening'...

Leo the Lion
Reply #369 Friday, December 12, 2003 7:06 PM
WOM....things still will need to change...the economic model needs to improve...


Right,on Jafo.......in one, on the nail.

Not only that but we owe it to all those people who have subscribed to get things sorted at the "front door".

Mark my words.....If we don't get this sorted we will face this situation again in six months time and it will not be pretty to watch
bakerstreet
Reply #370 Friday, December 12, 2003 7:27 PM
I can appreciate the thought that has gone into a lot of these ideas, but I think all this kind of obfuscates the situation. Things were tolerable, the servers died, then they weren't.

If you direct unregistered downloaders to the sign-up page, you get them started on their 50 meg limit. This reduces traffic and sets visitors on the path toward a subscription. If the subscription drive repairs the servers, and forcing people to site-register creates at least *some* increase in income, wouldn't WC be better off than ever?

I don't think WC needs a painful, Soviet-esque 5-year plan. Just sew up the holes, replace the hardware and see if it floats. If it doesn't, then decide where to trim fat. No point in alienating legit users until you know it is necessary.


[Message Edited]
Leo the Lion
Reply #371 Friday, December 12, 2003 7:31 PM
And here's another thought for all of you who have been loyal contributors to Wincustomize and Stardock.......there are quite a number of people out there who have got illegal copies of Stardock software that they have not paid a penny for. They happily waltz in here on a daily basis and pick up all the skins that they want. As you have seen its as easy as pie to get round the 50mb download limit. How does that make you feel when you have shelled out 70 bucks for your rights? I know how it makes me feel. Oh! and i have met some of these people believe you me and they don't care a monkey's arse about Wincustomize. As far as they are concerned this place is their playground to come and go as they please and take the gear and run. There's also the "continual" trial users as well who do the same thing or the "just free programmes" brigade.

If we get the "front door" properly secured then everyone who loves this place and loves Stardock's products will benefit.......and benefit big time........sitting on our backsides slapping each other on the back after we achieve the 500 new subscribers will not make this problem go away. Next time it will return with a vengeance and it will not be nice for anyone concerned.
Leo the Lion
Reply #372 Friday, December 12, 2003 7:49 PM
BakerStreet.......tolerable? This place was like a well oiled machine before the server crash. By this i mean everything from the speed of the site to the way it was run by the admins. You could not ask for more........and if you compare it with other sites......well put it this way you cannot compare.....Wincustomize is in a totally different league and i am a paying and active contributor to several of them. This place rocks.....to coin a phrase, which is a testament to its past and present management. And whats more it will continue to rock.

Forget the 50mb starter limit........the piss takers walk right around this time and time again. Sorry about the language but i feel strongly about this.

alienating legit users?......I think you will find that we are very much in the minority
bakerstreet
Reply #373 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:01 PM
Leo: I dunno if you get what i am saying or not. I said if everything was fine before the servers crashed, why undertake massive change? Fix the servers with the drive money and maybe restrict anonymous downloads.

By 'tolerable', I mean I don't see the point in changing limits, new user levels, etc, if things were tolerable before the hardware trouble.
Leo the Lion
Reply #374 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:30 PM
BakerStreet........i get what you are saying and i am with you on most of it . I just don't want the membership to sit back and hope everything will sort itself out or someone will appear with a magic wand because it won't happen. I am hoping that my last two or three posts may have enlightened some people further.

There are a couple of other tricky angles to all this when you think about it as deeply as i have done. I am not going to touch on those until i get some answers in my head.

Sorry if i sound a bit touchy but i am fiercely loyal to this place and i love it and everything that goes with it. I understand you feel likewise.

The bottom line is Brad knows what he is doing and i am sure he will make the right decisions together with all the other seniors of this site.

[Message Edited]
digital_k
Reply #375 Friday, December 12, 2003 9:15 PM
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work? I am not stirring a pot, I just have a few questions. I understand what's going on. But I think the site should be either subscription only, or left as is.
bakerstreet
Reply #376 Friday, December 12, 2003 9:42 PM
To me, income isn't *nearly* as important as operating costs in a case like this, where the point isn't profit, it is healthy existence. Streamline the process, and once you have whittled down all the waste, then you decide if the income is enough to cover future setbacks.

People don't really need skins at a gut level, like gambling or Pr0n, and they won't tolerate the kind of things those type sites can get away with. Skinz.org was a good example. At every hardship, the reaction was to pile on another annoyance for regular visitors, and pretty soon there weren't many.

I would be loath to annoy registered users, and I would under no circumstances monkey with the rights of anyone who has already paid. Both parties are potential income, and there shouldn't be any fat to trim when you cut into their comfort.
bakerstreet
Reply #377 Friday, December 12, 2003 9:45 PM
digital_k: if the site was profiting from other people's work, this string wouldn't exist. The point is the site *isn't* profiting, not even enough to sustain itself.

All this talk about paying people for skins is a bit premature, considering the trouble they seem to have making users pay to download them.

Apocalypse_67
Reply #378 Friday, December 12, 2003 11:56 PM
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work?


Every artist upon submission of his/her work is aware that he/she is uploading with the full knowledge that no monetary profits will come out of it (at least not directly from Stardock or WinCustomize)
In exchange for the display and exposure of your work the site offers the artist a space on the net server.
Any artist can go on their on and purchase a domain and set up their own website, but how much exposure will it get?
I my self have not obtain any kind of monetary compensation from the site, but my work has been expose enough that I have gotten hired by others that visit the site to create/design images, logos and graphics for their websites or business places. So it kinds of even things out
EventHorizon
Reply #379 Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:07 AM
I have gotten hired by others that visit the site to create/design images, logos and graphics for their websites or business places.


Dang, I need to do that... Imagine getting paid to have fun...
HG_Eliminator
Reply #380 Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:08 AM
What I can't figure is why all the skin artists aren't getting paid in this new idea. Will this site keep all the money and profit from someone elses work



if this site was turning a profit they wouldnt be asking for help with the new servers...this site i believe was said to cost abt $10,000
a month to run ..... they are in debt not swinning in cash ...so the artists arent the only ones not makin $.....these sugestions are to get the site self sufficiant .. much less turn profit ...
[Message Edited]

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