Discouraged. Is our community as we know it coming to an end?

Tuesday, December 9, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

A large percentage of you who read this are already WinCustomize premium subscribers. You've already done your part to help this site keep going.

But I must say, things are grim this holiday season here. 2 expensive servers are down. We must get 2 new servers in here. We need to get another 2 servers on top of that for redundancy but that can wait a bit. But it's depressing knowing that millions visit this site each month and we've only gotten 156 new subscribers since the subscription drive began. It definitely makes a strong case that perhaps the days of free skins are over. That the skin authors and web masters, who pull their weight, should move towards a more commercial model that benefits primarily those who contribute (skinners, subscribers, and developers). 

My friend Scott (Jark) has much the same problems over at deviantART: http://news.deviantart.com/article/12039/

That is, the problem of having massive MASSIVE traffic but only a tiny fraction of those users paying the bill. Many people think, incorrectly, that massive traffic == money. It doesn't.

I can tell you, those of you who have purchased premium subscriptions here have helped the community in ways that the average user can't possibly fathom.  Premium subscribers combined with the volunteer efforts of this site's administrators (Jafo, Boxxi, DavidK, Treetog, Alexandrie, Kaosati, MikeB, Hippy, and others) are what keep things going.

Without the premium subscriptions, I can tell you right now what would happen.  This site would slowly morph into being a purely Stardock oriented site with bandwidth caps for all users (including Object Desktop users - though theirs would be higher). Support for non-Stardock sections would slowly disappear or be restricted to subscribers only.  The wallpaper section would only be available to those who either have a wallpaper on there that got accepted or subscribers (in all these exaples, anyone with apprentice access or higher would be treated as a subscriber).

There would be banner ads, and things would become vastly more commercial. Instead of a free Christmas suite, it would be a $8 Christmas suite. Instead of free skins, a new system would b eput in place to allow authors to sell their skins as part of te library once they had achieved a certain access level. One-click purchasing by users with the skin authors getting a percent.

That is the commercialized future of skinning. The alternative. It's not necessarily dark and evil. But it is a much different world than what we have now. I suspect many skin authors out there would jump at the chance of being able to get paid for their skins.

I've posted for years that our community is made up of 3 co-equal groups: The skinners, the web masters, and the users.  We webmasters are doing everythign we can.  The skinners have done their part.  The users have to do their part as a collective.  Which means of the 75,000 unique visitors this site gets each day, 500 more of them need to contribute back too.  As the alternative to voluntarily helping will be paying bits and pieces here and there for skins and themes.  The alternative is a smaller community, a more commercialized community but a sustainable one too.

Personally, I hope some balance can be found. While some people think we represent the commercialization of skinning, in reality, we don't. We simply want...must find a sustainable model that allows our community to grow.  We have all seen the instability Deskmod, Skinz.org, and even Customize.org have faced.  The site has grown beyond what Stardock can pay for via Object Desktop sales.  While Stardock's revenue has grown, the traffic to this site has DOUBLED this year.

Like I said, a large percentage of you have already done your part. There's nothing more you can do.  But hopefully, the millions of people who come to this site will have some infintesible number of them that recognize that someone has to pay for all this stuff. 

The end of the year may end up being the end of this site as we know it. Those new machines will be purchased one way or the other. But if Stardock ends up having to pay for any of those two new machines, it's going to come with strings attached. Ones that will certainly benefit subscribers but the casual users of the world will probably not like.

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paxx
Reply #341 Friday, December 12, 2003 5:27 AM
Kona, in Canada, we have until the end of April to file out taxes, and most employers don't give you your T4's (tax papers) until March.
Anthony R
Reply #342 Friday, December 12, 2003 6:19 AM
Why not redirect the unregistered user to a download site where he/ she is blanketed with advertisments that bring in money for the site?
Keila
Reply #343 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:07 AM
#273 by BakerStreet
I think the best method available would be to offer a few sample skins and make the libraries available only to the site's registered users.


I tend to agree with this method. A wallpaper site that I have used has something like this and if I had wanted something bad enough I would have paid for it. They have a free section where you can download what you like but then the other sections are for members only. Visitors can still view what is in the other sections but they are not able to download and you can only enlarge the thumbnails to view better detail but not large enough to make use of the wall.
Link to site I am referring to http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/
Then I also have another though to add to that. Authors are kind of used to the number of downloads they get and they would definitely go down with a set up like the one above. So I was thinking, maybe have all the new additions available to everyone for a 2 day to one week period. That way people have the chance to get everything but they would really need to frequent the site. Through this method they may become part of the community and decided "like many others" that they would like to stay and pay for a subscription. Think about it, in a case for some, they may keep forgetting to come to the site often enough and end up missing things they really would have liked to have. It would be easier for them to just pay for the subscription then have to worry about missing anything.

Anyways, just my thoughts. good luck to Wincustomize/Stardock to what ever it is you may need to do to keep this site running properly.
Keila
Reply #344 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:14 AM
In addition, I would imagine that an extra front page for the site for non members explaining the new rules for the site. Also "hopefully" it could be set up that members do not have to view this front page every time and wait for an extra page to load.
Kevin_C
Reply #345 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:28 AM
I've read this whole thread and comments like those made by paxx and elvee really disturb me. Unless I missed something they want to delay certain people's ability to download skins?!? As an ODNT subscriber for the past 4 or so years and a WC subscriber my user level is 4. I don't contribute skins to the site because I'm about as artistic as a rock and I'm colorblind to boot, however I do try to help out on the message boards when someone has a problem that I feel I can help with that hasn't already been answered by someone else. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would consider myself an active member of this community and definitely not a troll or leech, and the idea of having to wait 7 days or even 24 hours in order to download a certain skin really ticks me off..

I personally like how digitalblasphemy.com is run in terms of members vs. non-members. The non-members site has only a small selection of things to choose from and they don't get the newest releases as soon as they come out. The members section has access to all of the latest releases more choices as far as resolution is concerned and a larger library to choose from. I know that this is not an apples to apples comparison but it's an idea for how separating the two sites could be used. I'm not sure whether there is any kind of limit to the amount that can be downloaded but there's probably a huge difference between offering only wallpapers and offering the variety of downloads that WC has..

Hopefully everything will work out for the best.

Kevin_C saunters off to contemplate renewing WC subscription a year early just to chip in what he can..
feline
Reply #346 Friday, December 12, 2003 8:57 AM
f0r3 - I've read this whole thread and comments like those made by paxx and elvee really disturb me. Unless I missed something they want to delay certain people's ability to download skins?!?


this is a suggestion, but since you already have a wincustomize subscription it wouldnt effect you.

also, note that this is a suggestion from members of the community, rather than a statement from Stardock of what is going to happen.

there are a lot of ideas being thrown around here, and not all of them will become reality.



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paxx
Reply #347 Friday, December 12, 2003 9:24 AM

f0r3, I don't quite understand your post. First you say that you don't think non-members should have to wait to downlaod newest skins, then you say:

I personally like how digitalblasphemy.com is run in terms of members vs. non-members. The non-members site has only a small selection of things to choose from and they don't get the newest releases as soon as they come out.

??? That's pretty much exactly what I was suggesting, although I didn't suggest the small selection of things. Having non-subscribers wait 24 hours for newest releases, and having non-clients wait 7 days for newest releases is what I had in mind.

And again, I'm speaking as a user here. I'm not a Stardock employee and I have no more words on this than anybody else here. This is just my personal suggestion.

Kevin_C
Reply #348 Friday, December 12, 2003 10:02 AM
paxx, actually it seemed to me that you were suggesting that all users with access level less than Apprentice (I think) should have to wait. Also, I absolutely think that non-members should be SEVERLY restricted in what they are able to do, but I don't think that SD customers should be considered non-members..

Here's an idea. How about if SD customers get unlimited or less-restricted access to the sections that are appropriate for the products they own. For example, if you own WB you have more access to the WB library than you do to the rest of the site. Now, I'm not sure how this would be handled for OD subscriptions but it's possibly an interesting way to give the folks who have purchased an SD product but not a WC subscription a little more than your average every day visitor to the site.

I realize that you aren't a representative of SD and I'm not upset at you or anyone else for suggesting solutions to this problem. I just felt that I needed to say something because if I remain silent I have no one but myself to blame if a process that I don't like becomes the new accepted process.

No hard feelings at all here, and I wasn't trying to single you out paxx it's just that you made the suggestion..
paxx
Reply #349 Friday, December 12, 2003 10:51 AM

What I said was a combination of levels and classes. I feel that people who contribute with their involvement are just as important than those who contribute financially.
So I suggested that people below Apprentice class AND people who never bough anything from Stardock (level 2) should wait 7 days before they can download new skins. I also suggested that non-subscriber (level 3) who are not class Journeymen and above should wait 24 hours.
Therefore a citizen who is level 3 would wait 24 hours only. A Journeyman who is level 2 would not wait at all. A citizen who is level 4 (subscriber) would not wait at all either. Etc.

Kevin_C
Reply #350 Friday, December 12, 2003 11:02 AM
OK, I'm with ya.. Anyway, it seems like this may all be moot as the subscription drive looks as if it's going pretty good. almost half-way there and close to half-way through the month. Hopefully more people will step up. I'd really hate to have to go back to DA, their color scheme gives me a headache and I really can't read someportions of their site because of the colors. Red-Green colorblind + DA color scheme is not a good combination..

Take care all!
KarmaGirl
Reply #351 Friday, December 12, 2003 11:40 AM
f0r3, I don't see things changing much at all for Stardock Customers or WC
subscribers. Since they already pay for the site, they will still get the goods.
However, I do see a few things that could be changed: 1) non-subscribers would
be drastically limited 2) No downloads without registering 3) a new "paid" skins
section that subscribers get a price break on I think that #3 is important for
two reasons. I think that we are losing a lot of the great skin authors because
they need to spend their time making things that make money. There is also not a
lot of incentive for people to spend the time really polishing their skins at
this point. I have had many people email me asking to donate to the site. I will
spend some time over the holidays trying to work out a system for this, and talk
with the admins to see if it will fly. My idea is to set up a Paypal account
(they really don't take any more fees than the regular credit card processing
does). The Paypal account will collect donations to fund an on going contest. As
long as there are donations, there will be prizes. Every month we will award
prizes in the form of WC subscriptions. That way it will get more "new" skinners
interested and hopefully help out some of the artists that can not afford a
subscription. People who already have a subscription can also donate $5 or
whatever to help out the donation bin. If you have idea on how to run this, or
ideas on things that can help, please email me.
Leo the Lion
Reply #352 Friday, December 12, 2003 2:15 PM
I have sat on my hands after my initial post on this thread and watched with interest. Many of the thoughts and ideas which have come up have been interesting and the debate as a whole has been most informative. There are several angles that i had never considered and i was especially interested in Jafo and Brad's point regarding the "knock on" effect that we have on other sites.

Whilst some of the ideas like "paid for skins" sound interesting i really think we are over complicating matters somewhat unnecessarily and after due consideration i have expanded my initial solutions and put more detail to them as follows:-

1. All unregistered access to the site is limited to "VIEWING ONLY".

2. All unregistered users are immediately directed to a "SIGN ON" page on arrival at the site where they are given the following options:-

A. Purchase a Stardock product or products. A brief overview of all
the products would be given here together with their respective cost.
These costs to include full access to Wincustomize. No more separate
subs for Wincustomize. Press this button and you are sent to Stardock
and make your purchase.

B. Download a Stardock product or products on a "try before you buy"
basis for say a 45 day period which will time expire itself. Several
options within this package are to be disabled. This package to
include sufficient skins to wet someones appetite. NO DOWNLOAD ACCESS
AT WINCUSTOMIZE. Again press this button and you are sent off to
Stardock to download your package.

C. For those who do not wish to partake in A. or B. but want download
access a $10 annual fee is required and they will sign on, register
and pay here.

D. To continue onto the site but on a "VIEWING BASIS" only.


3. All current Stardock product subscribers. When annual subscription comes up for renewal the cost is to include costs for full unlimited access to Wincustomize. i.e Object Desktop would now cost $10 more than it does now. Suscribers to Windowblinds or Icon Packager only would have their subscriptions increased by same ratio. There is one small issue with this in that most peoples WC subs come up for renewal at a different time than their Stardock product renewal but i am sure a solution can be found to reimbursing or carrying over subs in order to get everything
dovetailed in.

Surely by going down this route it would be easier to administer.

I am all for making this easy for everyone concerned - Stardock, Wincustomize, Skinners and consumers.

The freeloaders have had it easy for too long and we need to close the
door and make them either join this wonderful community or go elsewhere. Many of them are laughing their heads off at us, yes - all of us, and think we are an "easy ride". Tell me that does not "get your goat". Do you think they give a "flying f" about this place. No they don't. They will just take, take, take and keep laughing in your face.

There maybe a place for a separate premium suite or exclusive skins section at Wincustomize and i for one would encourage this aspect but lets deal with the "front door" first and get the rest of the house sorted afterwards.

I hope the subscription drive is a success but regardless of this i still feel we need to change things around here at the front end. I do not think that any of my suggestions will effect our community in any way and it will still be the best skinning site in the World - by a long way - All that will happen is that the "free lunch brigade" will move on elsewhere.

Please feel free to shoot down some of the things i have said in flames as i do not have the experience that Brad or Jafo or some of the other senior's have on this subject matter. Maybe there are some matters that i have not considered so please feel free to shout.......but be gentle.
aufisch
Reply #353 Friday, December 12, 2003 3:23 PM
Your Idea sounds actually quiet good to me, but I doubt that Stardock wants to tie its products so directly to the WC website. After all, a price increase for OD might lead to a decrease of OD subscriptions?

The first point now is to fix the "holes" in the system and see how this affects the financial situation of the site, if this does not change anything significantly, the second step would be to lay off the level 1 users.
I personally would wait before changes were made to level 3 users, since some of them might have had OD subscriptions for years and download restrictions could prevent them from renewing their subscription the next time round.

aufisch is waiting for that donation link
Leo the Lion
Reply #354 Friday, December 12, 2003 3:44 PM
Your Idea sounds actually quiet good to me, but I doubt that Stardock wants to tie its products so directly to the WC website. After all, a price increase for OD might lead to a decrease of OD subscriptions?


You make a very valid point.........but where else can they get the variety and volume of skins to go with the software you have purchased? Ok there are some on DA (which incidentally i am a fully paid up subcriber too as well) and then you have got the "pro's" like Pixtudio, SkinPlant and Essorants site. Heck, I bet most of the people who care about this place have stumped up 70 bucks for the products and WC subs but we are subsidising the "freeloaders" big time and they are laughing their socks off at us.

Whats the big deal with Stardock and Wincustomize being so close? Its no secret? Does it really affect anyone or Stardock for that matter? Am i being totally niave? I can feel one of Jafo's history lessons coming on
[Message Edited]
The DJ
Reply #355 Friday, December 12, 2003 3:46 PM
#352 by Leo the Lion - 12/12/2003 2:15:02 PM 2. All unregistered users are immediately directed to a "SIGN ON" page on arrival at the site where they are given the following options:-



I think that may be more annoying. Coming to a site and immediately being asked to register--lets not forget new users whom should have a chance to see whats here. Maybe something like IGN where when you click to download, you get a message saying 'you must subscribe, yada yada yada'...That message should also be placed elsewhere when just browsing for users without an account.

I think before this subscription drive is over the 'no downloading for visitors' should be implemented. Because of the fact a certain percentage will buy a subscriptions here (instead of a regular account), and move us closer to the 500 mark.
Kevin_C
Reply #356 Friday, December 12, 2003 4:01 PM
I definitely agree that some of the pieces that will be needed no matter what should be implemented as soon as they can. Maybe we can force a few of the freeloaders to register if we cause them some heartache now as opposed to later.
Leo the Lion
Reply #357 Friday, December 12, 2003 4:04 PM
I think that may be more annoying. Coming to a site and immediately being asked to register--lets not forget new users whom should have a chance to see whats here. Maybe something like IGN where when you click to download, you get a message saying 'you must subscribe, yada yada yada'...That message should also be placed elsewhere when just browsing for users without an account.


Very, Very good point DJ. Its cosmetic but its important in attracting new people.
joetheblow
Reply #358 Friday, December 12, 2003 4:30 PM
2. stop growing. Why not? What's the use of getting so big that it can't be supported. So WinCustomize gets more traffic than most other (if not all) skin sites. Why not cap the downloads, decimate the available content to only the best of the best, make things exclusive.


Sounds good to me.

Why grow just to end up spending more money then you get in?
joetheblow
Reply #359 Friday, December 12, 2003 4:39 PM
Oh and doesn't this site have a sister mirror site?

You have to allow for some downloads and veiwing and trying and some "having fun", but while doing that try to make it such that your not allowing them to download files larger than 1.5 megs.

10 megabyte wallpaper?
No download.
5 megabyte SysMetrix?
No download.

It wouldn't matter to much that some will make multiple accounts because they can only get so much anyway (like 20 megabytes in total)

Inactive accounts are distroyed after 2 months unless registared or at aprentice level (which means they have contributed so much [art work, messageboard, skins] that they get to keep the account indefiniatly)



I love brain storming.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #360 Friday, December 12, 2003 5:10 PM
i say stop the non registerd downloads. the higher the user level. the more content and higher rated content u can download.

make it diversified so u can get some $ from all types of users, not just the power users.

different user levels cost diff prices and have respective caps on quantity and quality downloaded...

.. keep the differences between level 3 and 4 the same. but add more tasty goodies to the level 4's extras..

that way the existing customers are not adversely effected .. and uve reduced the amt of non playing trafic. while offereing a wider variety of subscription choices .even a $5 sub is worth something if their dl size and quality. is kept under what they use in resources ...

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