Pledge of Allegiance Case
Tuesday, November 4, 2003 by Z06Leonhart | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to decide whether the Pledge of Allegiance - with its phrase "one nation, under God" - is something students should be allowed to say in public schools.
A federal appeals court in San Francisco shocked many Americans when it ruled on June 26, 2002, that the words "under God" render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional.... http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200310\NAT20031014d.html
I think a lot people know about this case. It has been a while but now the Supreme Court have decided to hear the case. My class will have a debate on this next week. I just want to know what the adult think about this case.
A federal appeals court in San Francisco shocked many Americans when it ruled on June 26, 2002, that the words "under God" render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional.... http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200310\NAT20031014d.html
I think a lot people know about this case. It has been a while but now the Supreme Court have decided to hear the case. My class will have a debate on this next week. I just want to know what the adult think about this case.
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bakerstreet
Reply #62 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 10:23 AM
Reply #62 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 10:23 AM
Paxx:
I think you are way overthinking it. It sounds like you are equating this with a prayer of legally-binding oath or something. It is really just a lesson in citizenship, a reiteration of vocabulary. Unlike the National Anthem, this is something that is really non-existant outside of school, so you could easily consider it educational in nature.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
This is a mini-history lesson. You can almost follow eras in American history as it progresses. With the exception of 'under God', I can't really equate that with indoctrination, because it doesn't actually translate to any sort of practice or bias. Words like Republic, Liberty, Justice aren't really concepts of debatable value, are they?
As a Canadian, you can understand the importance of a binding national identity. If there is no uniting theme, a concept like unity, indivisibility, is really hard to impress on people. I think the Pledge is a way to reiterate 200 years of painful, bloody lessons about the struggle to unite what might otherwise be splintered by divisive, conflicting interests.
Sure, the 'under God' thing can go with no real harm done, but I don't think there is anything sinister about the pledge itself. I'm not comfortable with a *cough*nihilistic*cough* attitude that there is never any reason for tradition or ceremony, that everything of the kind is either sinister or 'meaningless'. I see the "So what?" theme a lot when Canadians talk about American current events, but I also its effect on Canadian current events. The benefits are debatable.
[Message Edited]
I think you are way overthinking it. It sounds like you are equating this with a prayer of legally-binding oath or something. It is really just a lesson in citizenship, a reiteration of vocabulary. Unlike the National Anthem, this is something that is really non-existant outside of school, so you could easily consider it educational in nature.
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
This is a mini-history lesson. You can almost follow eras in American history as it progresses. With the exception of 'under God', I can't really equate that with indoctrination, because it doesn't actually translate to any sort of practice or bias. Words like Republic, Liberty, Justice aren't really concepts of debatable value, are they?
As a Canadian, you can understand the importance of a binding national identity. If there is no uniting theme, a concept like unity, indivisibility, is really hard to impress on people. I think the Pledge is a way to reiterate 200 years of painful, bloody lessons about the struggle to unite what might otherwise be splintered by divisive, conflicting interests.
Sure, the 'under God' thing can go with no real harm done, but I don't think there is anything sinister about the pledge itself. I'm not comfortable with a *cough*nihilistic*cough* attitude that there is never any reason for tradition or ceremony, that everything of the kind is either sinister or 'meaningless'. I see the "So what?" theme a lot when Canadians talk about American current events, but I also its effect on Canadian current events. The benefits are debatable.
[Message Edited]
Jafo
Reply #63 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 10:39 AM
Reply #63 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 10:39 AM
An Immigrant to Australia only 'pledges' once.
I guess they're just blessed with better memories....
paxx
Reply #64 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:20 AM
Reply #64 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:20 AM
| As a Canadian, you can understand the importance of a binding national identity. |
Actually, not really. 
Please re-read what I wrote about how most Canadians feel about Canada.
And about "indivisibility", well that's yet another issue, if you have followed Canadian politics a little. There are a few secession movements in Canada. More in Quebec than any other places, but they still exist in other provinces too.
Think of Canada more like a Union, than a real country. People in Canada usually have a much stronger regional pride than a national one.
Chef Garry
Reply #65 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #65 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:49 AM
Footsie #45:
Perhaps I've missed something here. I agree with your statement 100% but the parent takes priority as theresponsible adult in this situation (in most situations I think). It sounds like the parents' views are being overridden? And please don't take this (or IP's) statements as personal attack. I mean no such thing and I'm dead sure IP doesn't either.
Paxx, I'm a fellow Canadian and you've pretty much hit the nail. There are times when I feel patriotic as all get out and I personally love Canada and can't imagine life anywhere else. Less winter would be ok though.
That said, I've never seen the need to obsess about it. A few of you might remember the Vietnam fallout years - "my country, right or wrong and love it or leave it". I call that obsession. (obcession? nah doesn't look right)
[Message Edited]
| It is still up to responsible adults to make responsible decisions for the innocents in their care. |
Perhaps I've missed something here. I agree with your statement 100% but the parent takes priority as theresponsible adult in this situation (in most situations I think). It sounds like the parents' views are being overridden? And please don't take this (or IP's) statements as personal attack. I mean no such thing and I'm dead sure IP doesn't either.
Paxx, I'm a fellow Canadian and you've pretty much hit the nail. There are times when I feel patriotic as all get out and I personally love Canada and can't imagine life anywhere else. Less winter would be ok though.
That said, I've never seen the need to obsess about it. A few of you might remember the Vietnam fallout years - "my country, right or wrong and love it or leave it". I call that obsession. (obcession? nah doesn't look right)
[Message Edited]
bakerstreet
Reply #66 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #66 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:49 AM
"There are a few secession movements... "
Yes, that was my point. I assumed that mattered for some reason, but I guess not. Sorry, I'll try not to impose the whole 'nation' status thing on you guys.
Yes, that was my point. I assumed that mattered for some reason, but I guess not. Sorry, I'll try not to impose the whole 'nation' status thing on you guys.
paxx
Reply #67 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:21 PM
Reply #67 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:21 PM
OK, so your point was because in Canada there are some secessionist political groups, that it's a reason why the idea of unity be more solidly endoctrinated?
Well, I disagree. You see, as I said, in Canada most provinces or regions fight for their own interest. And that's the way most people like it. Actually, historically, the central government had a very minimal role, most of the decisions being taken locally by the provinces. But, through the years, it has been forcing itself more and more into provincial juridictions, and a lot of people resent that. The day when the Canadian government decides to take a decision that will entirely go against local values or interests, that's the day when that province may very well decide to separate.
Unlike the US, Canada is not a federation, but a confederation. Check out the difference, and you will understand why the notion of national pride isn't so important in Canada. Nobody in Canada, I trust, feels Canadian at all costs.
For example, if Canada decided one day to make English only the official language of the country, that's the day Quebec gets out of the confederation; no second thouhgt about it, and the opinion would pretty much be unanymous. But of course, there is no chance that would ever happen, precisely because of that reason.
Well, I disagree. You see, as I said, in Canada most provinces or regions fight for their own interest. And that's the way most people like it. Actually, historically, the central government had a very minimal role, most of the decisions being taken locally by the provinces. But, through the years, it has been forcing itself more and more into provincial juridictions, and a lot of people resent that. The day when the Canadian government decides to take a decision that will entirely go against local values or interests, that's the day when that province may very well decide to separate.
Unlike the US, Canada is not a federation, but a confederation. Check out the difference, and you will understand why the notion of national pride isn't so important in Canada. Nobody in Canada, I trust, feels Canadian at all costs.
For example, if Canada decided one day to make English only the official language of the country, that's the day Quebec gets out of the confederation; no second thouhgt about it, and the opinion would pretty much be unanymous. But of course, there is no chance that would ever happen, precisely because of that reason.
Chef Garry
Reply #68 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:36 PM
Reply #68 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:36 PM
Paxx, like most familys we have our squabbles. Alberta yabbles about separation from time to time as well but I don't think anyone takes it too seriously. I like what you said about Canadian citizenship being a rather comfortable relationship. I just don't picture a daily pledge of alligiance here.
paxx
Reply #69 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:52 PM
Reply #69 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 1:52 PM
It makes sense historically, Garry.
The reason Canada exists is three-fold mainly.
1- The colonies needed a natural trading mechanism in order to ensure a better economy. Joining in one country seemed a good way to start to trade between themselves.
2- The USA was a military threat. They were less likely to attempt an invasion if the North American Colonies were unified.
3- England didn't want the expense of defending the colonies against the US, they therefore encouraged them to join as one single country with its own military forces.
That's about it. For the rest, each colony had their own interests, their own values, and had no intentions of letting somebody else decide upon their own affairs. That state of mind got carried over through history, and that's why we have today 3 parties in Ottawa, elected by 3 different regions: the Alliance (Western Canada), the Liberal (Ontario), and the Bloc (Quebec). Canada is realy more a Union of Provinces than an actual country.
The reason Canada exists is three-fold mainly.
1- The colonies needed a natural trading mechanism in order to ensure a better economy. Joining in one country seemed a good way to start to trade between themselves.
2- The USA was a military threat. They were less likely to attempt an invasion if the North American Colonies were unified.
3- England didn't want the expense of defending the colonies against the US, they therefore encouraged them to join as one single country with its own military forces.
That's about it. For the rest, each colony had their own interests, their own values, and had no intentions of letting somebody else decide upon their own affairs. That state of mind got carried over through history, and that's why we have today 3 parties in Ottawa, elected by 3 different regions: the Alliance (Western Canada), the Liberal (Ontario), and the Bloc (Quebec). Canada is realy more a Union of Provinces than an actual country.
Chef Garry
Reply #70 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 3:25 PM
Reply #70 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 3:25 PM
Paxx:
I agree - interesting though as my understanding of the USA is that is exactly what the intent is/was there. AFAIK (and I could be off base) Texas is the state that most associates with that idea.
We've managed to hijack this thread rather well I think
| Canada is realy more a Union of Provinces than an actual country. |
I agree - interesting though as my understanding of the USA is that is exactly what the intent is/was there. AFAIK (and I could be off base) Texas is the state that most associates with that idea.
We've managed to hijack this thread rather well I think
aufisch
Reply #71 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 3:52 PM
Reply #71 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 3:52 PM
Paxx, I agree with you. This whole "pledge" thing is very hard to understand for non US-citizens.
Whenever I see it being done (on TV) I really can't help but think it is political propaganda and brain washing. Anything that is repeated on and on will influence your sub-conscious to a certain degree. I myself don't know of any other western country who does a similar thing or does have the need for it.
Whenever I see it being done (on TV) I really can't help but think it is political propaganda and brain washing. Anything that is repeated on and on will influence your sub-conscious to a certain degree. I myself don't know of any other western country who does a similar thing or does have the need for it.
_footsie_
Reply #72 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 9:52 PM
Reply #72 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 9:52 PM
Gee I was born and raised in America. You were born and raised in Canada. Great. Good. We got that all settled. You do your thing. I'll do mine. Don't cram yours down my throat and I won't return the disfavor. Peace.
paxx
Reply #73 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:03 PM
Reply #73 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 11:03 PM
Oh but you are more than welcome to discuss any matter of Canadian politics that ticks you off. I may even agree with you, or I may not. Nevertheless it could be fun.
kona0197
Reply #75 Thursday, November 6, 2003 2:25 AM
Reply #75 Thursday, November 6, 2003 2:25 AM
Since I believe that this country was somewhat found on GOD I will say this:
A house devided against itself can not stand.
A house devided against itself can not stand.
KarmaGirl
Reply #77 Thursday, November 6, 2003 10:31 AM
Reply #77 Thursday, November 6, 2003 10:31 AM
Can we bring this thread back on topic now?
The thread is about the impending court decision on the pledge, as it currently is said, being allowed in schools, not how the US and Cananda are different.
_footsie_
Reply #78 Thursday, November 6, 2003 11:00 AM
Reply #78 Thursday, November 6, 2003 11:00 AM
No thanks paxx....not much into politics...and frankly don't know a thing about Canadian politics... but if they're anything like American politics I supposed I can 'raspberry' across the border too lol 
yrag....it's RIFLE hunny hehehe and I don't loan em out cuz I don't like my sights messed with
I agree with you Kona and KarmaGirl
yrag....it's RIFLE hunny hehehe and I don't loan em out cuz I don't like my sights messed with I agree with you Kona and KarmaGirl
bakerstreet
Reply #79 Thursday, November 6, 2003 11:32 AM
Reply #79 Thursday, November 6, 2003 11:32 AM
Paxx: what _footsie_ said in post #72 was exactly what you said to me concerning your agreement with the practice of aborting the mentally handicapped ( https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=202868&BID=WC&page=2#203592 (post #43)). You live in your country, I live in mine, right?
You can appreciate, then, the fruitlessness of repetitively critiquing values because they may not be shared in your own locale. I wasn't aware the Pledge itself was in question, only the 'under God' part.
You seem to see no need in national identity, we do. I value the Canadian perspective, but in the end it is just the Canadian perspective. We get a lot of that down here, and it tends to lack much applicable use. I equate Canada these days with the two old men in the balcony on The Muppet Show.
The 'brainwashing' stuff has been addressed, and is getting old.
[Message Edited]
You can appreciate, then, the fruitlessness of repetitively critiquing values because they may not be shared in your own locale. I wasn't aware the Pledge itself was in question, only the 'under God' part.
You seem to see no need in national identity, we do. I value the Canadian perspective, but in the end it is just the Canadian perspective. We get a lot of that down here, and it tends to lack much applicable use. I equate Canada these days with the two old men in the balcony on The Muppet Show.
The 'brainwashing' stuff has been addressed, and is getting old.
[Message Edited]
paxx
Reply #80 Thursday, November 6, 2003 12:10 PM
Reply #80 Thursday, November 6, 2003 12:10 PM
Ah, but do you really need that national identity, or have you been conditionned so, with things such as saying the pledge every day during all your childhood?
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Reply #61 Wednesday, November 5, 2003 9:51 AM
(pretty much a turn off for me)
[Message Edited]