Creation vs. Evolution
Thursday, September 11, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
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bakerstreet
Reply #762 Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:46 PM
Reply #762 Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:46 PM
re: #760 touché, Doreen. I just keep hoping, as I did before I got sick of this a month ago, that Greyhaze, IPlural and the rest will realize that the vast majority of the world's population believe in a Supreme Being, and most of those believe that Evolutionary theory is at least partially correct. There really is no conflict with most people. Most people don't need to see Evolution and Creationism as exclusive at all.
I have come to the conclusion that the resident athiests *want* a vs so they can caracture anyone that believes in a Supreme Being. All they need to do is bait Kona out once a week and they can go to sleep feeling superior. Whatever floats their boat, I'm bored with it again. I'll no doubt forget and post again in a month, hope springs eternal...
I have come to the conclusion that the resident athiests *want* a vs so they can caracture anyone that believes in a Supreme Being. All they need to do is bait Kona out once a week and they can go to sleep feeling superior. Whatever floats their boat, I'm bored with it again. I'll no doubt forget and post again in a month, hope springs eternal...
IPlural
Reply #763 Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:14 PM
Reply #763 Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:14 PM
BakerStreet, take a breath, your good peoples and you've just as much right to have the opinions and feelings that anyone else does and just as much right to state them. I for one do not see myself as being better than anyone, less if anything. Though I do tend to question and also do not always take the time to not blurt out what is passing through my head at the moment.
As far as finding things offensive goes, it happens, I found a couple of things said in the thread extremely offensive but keep mum about them because they are not real. What I mean is they were not said to cut into my mind, they were just statements of feelings on the person’s part. They own that, not I and it really doesn't matter if they directed them at me or not because it is the past right after I read them. It also does not reflect upon my opinion of anyone because that would be pointless and harmful. Something I do not believe anyone here would truly mean to do or be with anyone else.
Even with contention there is a positive gain in any situation because it is both going to reinforce ones beliefs, remind them why they hold them and possibly it will give everyone cause for thought or maybe open some eyes to new possibilities.
Anyway...
Life’s to short to sweat such things, what you hold as your own truths are something no one can every steal or take from you or they were never truly yours to begin with.
As far as finding things offensive goes, it happens, I found a couple of things said in the thread extremely offensive but keep mum about them because they are not real. What I mean is they were not said to cut into my mind, they were just statements of feelings on the person’s part. They own that, not I and it really doesn't matter if they directed them at me or not because it is the past right after I read them. It also does not reflect upon my opinion of anyone because that would be pointless and harmful. Something I do not believe anyone here would truly mean to do or be with anyone else.
Even with contention there is a positive gain in any situation because it is both going to reinforce ones beliefs, remind them why they hold them and possibly it will give everyone cause for thought or maybe open some eyes to new possibilities.
Anyway...
Life’s to short to sweat such things, what you hold as your own truths are something no one can every steal or take from you or they were never truly yours to begin with.
kona0197
Reply #764 Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:14 PM
i have nothing more to say on this subject: Sorry to disappoint you all.
Reply #764 Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:14 PM
| All they need to do is bait Kona out once a week and they can go to sleep feeling superior. |
i have nothing more to say on this subject: Sorry to disappoint you all.
Doreen
Reply #765 Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:10 PM
Reply #765 Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:10 PM
Baker this debate will go on until the end comes, msg boards or not... hehe
nothing said here will change a thing the only thing that can change is how ppl accept each others opinions and just respect that and leave it alone, after all we're only accountable for ourselves and nobody else on these msg boards when we share our believes and POV's on stuff right?
I find it kinda interesting some of the things I read of ppl from around the world and how they look at things in life...
but I know who I am and it does not change me it just makes me "think" sometimes that's all, so don't let things get you upset Baker
nothing said here will change a thing the only thing that can change is how ppl accept each others opinions and just respect that and leave it alone, after all we're only accountable for ourselves and nobody else on these msg boards when we share our believes and POV's on stuff right?
I find it kinda interesting some of the things I read of ppl from around the world and how they look at things in life...
but I know who I am and it does not change me it just makes me "think" sometimes that's all, so don't let things get you upset Baker
r3fr
Reply #767 Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:49 PM
Reply #767 Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:49 PM
"That's exactly my point r3fr. Question an evolutionist's views and they'll more than likely show you a little proof and tell you it's the best answer we've yet to find. Question a creationist's views and they'll regurgitate the Bible and tell you you're wrong."
I've not read this entire topic (31 pages!), so could you tell me of the proof you speak of?
I've not read this entire topic (31 pages!), so could you tell me of the proof you speak of?
Sugaree
Reply #768 Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:59 PM
Reply #768 Thursday, October 23, 2003 11:59 PM
heh #752 thru #755 is pleanty proof of blah blah blah BS! 
Chris TH
Reply #771 Friday, October 24, 2003 1:14 AM
You want the sum total of human knowledge condensed to... what... 1 page, 2 maybe?
I'm sure you live near a library? They got books other than the bible there. Check it out.
Reply #771 Friday, October 24, 2003 1:14 AM
| I've not read this entire topic (31 pages!), so could you tell me of the proof you speak of? |
You want the sum total of human knowledge condensed to... what... 1 page, 2 maybe?
I'm sure you live near a library? They got books other than the bible there. Check it out.
r3fr
Reply #772 Friday, October 24, 2003 3:10 AM
Reply #772 Friday, October 24, 2003 3:10 AM
Theres proof that Jesus lived and walked the earth. Read the book 'Josephus'. Proof of Jesus' existence. Human knowledge isn't always right, like the 'fact' I gave of the earth being flat. Evolution doesn't explain why humans are far superior to the animals, even our 'relatives' the apes. Apes, put simply, are stupid. They're nothing compared to humans. The smartest animal, is the dolphin (correct me if i'm wrong) and they're still nothing compared to us. Look at what we've accomplished... some good, some bad, but still awe-inspiring. Our bodies are awe-inspiring. Look at the mutitudes of other animals and plants and even the human personalities. Design requires a designer. Why is it dogs can't breed with cats? Why can't horses breed with sheep? Why can't humans breed with apes? (These aren't ment to be sick.) Evolutionists and Creationists have 1 thing in common and that is they're searching for how the earth began. Evolutionists continue to change their answers. Creationists have had the same answer since the beginning of man. Some people sincerely reject the concept of a Creator because they feel, as it has been said, that ‘seeing is believing.’ If something cannot be seen or measured in some way, then they may feel that it does not exist. True, in daily life they acknowledge the existence of many things that cannot be seen, such as electricity, magnetism, radio or television waves and gravity. Yet, this does not alter their view, because all these things can still be measured or sensed by some other physical means. But there is no physical way to see or measure a Creator, or God. However, there is sound reason to believe that an unseen Creator does exist because we can observe the evidence, the physical results of his handiwork. We see it in the technical perfection and intricacy of atomic structure, in the magnificently organized universe, in the unique planet Earth, in the amazing designs of living things and in man’s awesome brain. These are effects that must have an adequate cause to account for their existence. Even materialists accept this law of cause and effect in all other matters. Why not also regarding the physical universe itself?
On this point, the Bible’s simple argument puts it best: “[The Creator’s] invisible attributes, that is to say his everlasting power and deity, have been visible, ever since the world began, to the eye of reason, in the things he has made.” (Romans 1:20, The New English Bible) In other words, the Bible reasons from effect to cause. The visible creation, the awesome “things he has made,” are an evident effect that must have an intelligent cause. That invisible cause is God. Too, as the Maker of all the universe, the Creator no doubt possesses power so enormous that humans of flesh and blood should not expect to see God and survive. As the Bible comments: “No man may see [God] and yet live.”—Exodus 33:20.
On this point, the Bible’s simple argument puts it best: “[The Creator’s] invisible attributes, that is to say his everlasting power and deity, have been visible, ever since the world began, to the eye of reason, in the things he has made.” (Romans 1:20, The New English Bible) In other words, the Bible reasons from effect to cause. The visible creation, the awesome “things he has made,” are an evident effect that must have an intelligent cause. That invisible cause is God. Too, as the Maker of all the universe, the Creator no doubt possesses power so enormous that humans of flesh and blood should not expect to see God and survive. As the Bible comments: “No man may see [God] and yet live.”—Exodus 33:20.
r3fr
Reply #773 Friday, October 24, 2003 3:18 AM
Reply #773 Friday, October 24, 2003 3:18 AM
Evolution is only a theory. Believing in evolution, then, is an act of faith
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #774 Friday, October 24, 2003 4:13 AM
Reply #774 Friday, October 24, 2003 4:13 AM
Whatever. Yawn 
Time to lock this thread, it's getting boring now. Same old stuff over and over and over....
Time to lock this thread, it's getting boring now. Same old stuff over and over and over....
bakerstreet
Reply #775 Friday, October 24, 2003 5:17 AM
Reply #775 Friday, October 24, 2003 5:17 AM
Oh yeah? Well I knows what I weren't never no munky. That there Fuzzy Logic feller shore makes a feller wunder thow...
( ... bread and circuses... [aussie] ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!??!?! [/aussie] ... )
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
( ... bread and circuses... [aussie] ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!??!?! [/aussie] ... )
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
joetheblow
Reply #776 Friday, October 24, 2003 5:47 AM
Reply #776 Friday, October 24, 2003 5:47 AM
Technically its Friday so I can post again.
So would it be true that creation is a theory?
I believe in a Higher Power but the bottom line still comes down to that either way you want to go it is a belief. A sum of works based on someone elses work.
I have never read the Bible in its original form, has anyone here?
I have never been able to varify all the conclusions of science over the past (fill the blank) years, has anyone here?
| Evolution is only a theory. Believing in evolution, then, is an act of faith |
So would it be true that creation is a theory?
I believe in a Higher Power but the bottom line still comes down to that either way you want to go it is a belief. A sum of works based on someone elses work.
I have never read the Bible in its original form, has anyone here?
I have never been able to varify all the conclusions of science over the past (fill the blank) years, has anyone here?
joetheblow
Reply #777 Friday, October 24, 2003 6:04 AM
Reply #777 Friday, October 24, 2003 6:04 AM
An atheist response to my comment:
Religious freak
An religious response to my comment:
Whoa the troubled soul you have.
-----------------------
Extreme answers? Yes, because I think most people believe whilst they also think evolution is somewhat true (even though some missing links have not been found)
I think bakerstreet has a point and I think he best made it on pages 29 - 31. I strongly believe that if your super sure in your faith, then you must has stopped trying to get closer to enlightenment.
By the way, 1914 is the beginning of what according to the Bible? Not do dismiss that but I really thought I heard something similar about:
The year 2000
WWII
The Civil War
The Year 1000
The Black Death
HIV/AIDS
And other stuff. No offense but it would seem that then end is near depends on who your asking.
joetheblow goes off to post on other threads
FREE, FREE!!!!
Religious freak
An religious response to my comment:
Whoa the troubled soul you have.
-----------------------
Extreme answers? Yes, because I think most people believe whilst they also think evolution is somewhat true (even though some missing links have not been found)
I think bakerstreet has a point and I think he best made it on pages 29 - 31. I strongly believe that if your super sure in your faith, then you must has stopped trying to get closer to enlightenment.
By the way, 1914 is the beginning of what according to the Bible? Not do dismiss that but I really thought I heard something similar about:
The year 2000
WWII
The Civil War
The Year 1000
The Black Death
HIV/AIDS
And other stuff. No offense but it would seem that then end is near depends on who your asking.
joetheblow goes off to post on other threads
FREE, FREE!!!!
grayhaze
Reply #778 Saturday, October 25, 2003 2:11 PM
Reply #778 Saturday, October 25, 2003 2:11 PM
Regardless of how stereotyped or offensive you find my comments BakerStreet, they are based entirely on my experience with both groups of people (I almost said 'sides' there, but apparently this thread has been 32 pages of folks agreeing with each other 
). I have large numbers of friends who both believe and do not believe in a God, and they in turn have large numbers of similar friends to whom I have been introduced.
In my experience, the one group of people, let's call them the 'scientists', are open to discussion and debate on their beliefs and are willing to listen to and consider alternative points of view. The other group of people, who we'll call the 'religious', are completely 100% closed off to any form of debate about the validity of their beliefs, in that if you question them they'll look at you like you're mad and regurgitate some story out of the Bible which conclusively 'proves' that there are no other possibilities.
These observations aren't meant to attack you personally, or your religion, but are merely things that puzzle me and perhaps infuriate me a little.
I know the debates will rage on long into the future, and it's highly unlikely that the world will ever come to a single conclusion about where we came from or where we're going, but I still hold out hope that one day I'll be able to sit down with a Christian and hear something from them that will allow me to understand their way of thinking without them giving the impression that they've been brainwashed. In truth, I'd like to believe in God, but the believers are just preventing me from being able to take that step.
). I have large numbers of friends who both believe and do not believe in a God, and they in turn have large numbers of similar friends to whom I have been introduced.In my experience, the one group of people, let's call them the 'scientists', are open to discussion and debate on their beliefs and are willing to listen to and consider alternative points of view. The other group of people, who we'll call the 'religious', are completely 100% closed off to any form of debate about the validity of their beliefs, in that if you question them they'll look at you like you're mad and regurgitate some story out of the Bible which conclusively 'proves' that there are no other possibilities.
These observations aren't meant to attack you personally, or your religion, but are merely things that puzzle me and perhaps infuriate me a little.
I know the debates will rage on long into the future, and it's highly unlikely that the world will ever come to a single conclusion about where we came from or where we're going, but I still hold out hope that one day I'll be able to sit down with a Christian and hear something from them that will allow me to understand their way of thinking without them giving the impression that they've been brainwashed. In truth, I'd like to believe in God, but the believers are just preventing me from being able to take that step.
bakerstreet
Reply #779 Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:01 PM
Reply #779 Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:01 PM
"...I still hold out hope that one day I'll be able to sit down with a Christian and hear something from them that will allow me to understand their way of thinking without them giving the impression that they've been brainwashed."
I would love to know what I or Aleatoric do that resembles someone brainwashed, or any of the other people on this string that call themselves Christian and are open to Evolution as a *method* of Creation. Thinking back I can count the biblical literalists on one hand.
I don't understand why 'Christian' has to mean Fundamentalist. It annoys me beyond belief to have that label imposed on me. I am acquainted with many, many religious people, but I only knew people like you describe when I lived in very, very rural areas. Even then they were in the minority.
I have said this over and over, though, so it doesn't matter. God seems to be in question here, not Creationism, so I'll bow to the sublimated topic.
I would love to know what I or Aleatoric do that resembles someone brainwashed, or any of the other people on this string that call themselves Christian and are open to Evolution as a *method* of Creation. Thinking back I can count the biblical literalists on one hand.
I don't understand why 'Christian' has to mean Fundamentalist. It annoys me beyond belief to have that label imposed on me. I am acquainted with many, many religious people, but I only knew people like you describe when I lived in very, very rural areas. Even then they were in the minority.
I have said this over and over, though, so it doesn't matter. God seems to be in question here, not Creationism, so I'll bow to the sublimated topic.
bakerstreet
Reply #780 Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:43 PM
Reply #780 Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:43 PM
greyhaze: to be fair...
I'll add that you do split the groups into open-minded 'scientists' and close-minded 'religious', and that is palatable to me. I do appreciate the effort, but then you immediately revert to using the all-encompassing 'Christian' label. Do you mean protestant or Catholic? If it means protestant, do you mean episcopal, mormon, baptist, etc. ? Does that mean you *don't* have a problem with Muslims that reject evolution, or Hindi?
What I see when I read your posts is open-eyed animosity towards a particular flavor of a particular religion, othe Fundamentalist strain of all religions. They are the minority, you know? There are billions of people in the world who accept the possibility of a Supreme Being. Do you really imagine that they are all the way you describe the 'religious'?
You really need never ponder Bible-Belt style Fundamentalism when making a decision whether to believe in God or not. If you allow such people to define 'religion', then you are doing yourself an injustice.
I'll add that you do split the groups into open-minded 'scientists' and close-minded 'religious', and that is palatable to me. I do appreciate the effort, but then you immediately revert to using the all-encompassing 'Christian' label. Do you mean protestant or Catholic? If it means protestant, do you mean episcopal, mormon, baptist, etc. ? Does that mean you *don't* have a problem with Muslims that reject evolution, or Hindi?
What I see when I read your posts is open-eyed animosity towards a particular flavor of a particular religion, othe Fundamentalist strain of all religions. They are the minority, you know? There are billions of people in the world who accept the possibility of a Supreme Being. Do you really imagine that they are all the way you describe the 'religious'?
You really need never ponder Bible-Belt style Fundamentalism when making a decision whether to believe in God or not. If you allow such people to define 'religion', then you are doing yourself an injustice.
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Reply #761 Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:19 PM