Travis

In traffic seeing a bumper with "God is my Co-Pilot" stuck on it with dents all over the car always gave me pause

Also in order for a marriage to be a marriage she had to consummate it,

Where does it say that?

I didn't know God could drive

IP, I've read books that say that Mary was like 12 or so when she became pregnant, and was probably a virgin. You know, it happens. The hymen can sometimes be very flexible and won't break the first time. Again, according to the same book I read Joseph was probably an old man then. Mary was an orphan and he he took her into his home. But she became pregnant, probably from one of his sons (yes, Joseph had been married before and had 3 grown boys).  To save the face, he had to marry her, and he did.

I could recommend the book, but I don't think it's been translated in English. Gerald Messadie is the author, and the title of the book would translate "The man who became God" in English.

Creation VS evolution? Odd thing is you can count on one hand the number of 'creationists' here in this discussion that have a problem with Evolution, and yet it is a never ending stream of criticism of ALL religion from the secular side. Frankly, when you see the *same* people on page 30 making the same stabbing comments about religion that they were on the first few pages... well, it is telling. They seem to have other drums to bang besides Evolution.

This isn't a debate that would be benefited by attrition; a good, six-month grilling isn't gonna make anyone discard their spiritual beliefs. As it stands most religious criticism has been repetitive, misinformed, blanket statements that fail to target Fundamentalists, or even Creationists. Immaculate conception, and the "devil in the details" arguments are irrelevant. Even as shared doctrine there aren't 2 religious people here that are gonna agree on it all. Judging Christianity by such is like judging Islam based upon 9/11 or Bali. I don't have a problem with most resident atheists, but I am getting pretty sick of seeing details of my own beliefs characterized as symptoms the world's ills.

If you have problems with God, take them to email, or God, or to therapy, but don't insult billions of people who have a spiritual stake in a Creator and no axe to grind with you. Sorry if I seem cold, but I feel no care or caution from a few people regarding my own beliefs, and I feel less and less obligated to tread lightly. Occam's Razor can cut both ways. It would be a shame, though, so lets avoid it. A bit of introspection would be preferable to slicing up one another any further.

Ya know those emblems you see on cars...Fish (creation) & Fish w/legs (evolution)? Well, on the back of my Jeep, I had them both and they were ummmmm "doing it"!

I loved droping my kids off at school in that thing...Yeah, no...I'm not PTA

Na, you don't seem cold BakerStreet, impassioned maybe, but cold, no..

And it shouldn't be taken as personal by anyone and isn't taken personal by me, what you've stated, it just is fact of how you feel.

China

Baker,

Yeah, it's often sad how discussions of this type tend toward the unnecessarily confrontational (religion and politics, that's what we're told to avoid ).

Truth is, creation vs evolution is, at heart, basically a religious discussion, even though the arguments are often a spectrum rather than a pair of polar opposites. Given that, it's not surprising that ancillary religious issues will be aired. Often some of those side issues tend to be supporting of the primary argument, if only that they are used to explain the thought processes of the person making the statement. In the sense that I may have another drum to bang, it is in this context of a supporting argument or a response to someone elses argument.

That said, I do agree that acrimony and blanket attacks are both unnecessary and counter productive. The typical sociological injuction against religion in discussion is seemingly predicated on the idea that the participants somehow cannot remain civil and mature. While that is often true, my opinion is that such a position speaks to the worst of us, and I prefer to look for the best (not that it always shows up ). Such discussions touch very close to the heart of ourselves. When things engage us so intimately, responses are often instinctive rather than thoughtful, moreso where the subject still has great sensitivity.

I have nothing but respect for those who truly believe (either way). I do not engage in these types of discussion with the intent of changing a belief or castigating the believer. I will attempt to correct any fallacies (logical or factual) that I encounter, just as I'm willing to be corrected on any fallacies I may present. The fundaments of personal faith, however, should not be assailed. My own desire for self integrity (and my respect for the self integrity of others) indicates this belief. I may not agree, but I will not demean.

If we can keep our objectivity, such a discussion as this can be very enlightening and thought provoking. I have seen information and sources from both sides of the argument that were new to me, or required me to really think through to respond. For me, such interaction is the heart of personal growth.

[Message Edited]

While I agree that certain comments have been made which are a little inappropriate, some of which were intended as non-serious icebreakers by myself, I don't agree that the bias of this thread has been heavily on the side of those who don't believe in creation bashing other's beliefs. If anything, I've found that there are more religious people willing to condescend and dish out unwanted sympathy than there are non-religious people denying God outright.

Here's how I see the differences between the two groups: In general, those who believe in a God are completely closed off to any other possibility beyond that which they have been taught through organised religion. If someone were to ask them to admit that there's even the smallest possibility that they could be wrong, they would start screaming from the rooftops about blasphemy and the devil. On the other side, you have those who don't believe in God. In general, they will admit that given enough tangible proof they would be open to the possibility of God's existence. They will even admit that long-held scientific 'facts' can be, and often are, either a little incorrect or completely untrue. They are open to the possibility of other truths beyond that which they have been taught.

I understand that religious people feel a need to protect their beliefs in the face of even the slightest opposition, but I will never understand their need to try and push those beliefs onto others who don't share them. You don't often find people walking down the street with leaflets proclaiming the word of Science, simply because scientists like to give you the information and let you make your own mind up. It would be nice if religious people could respect the beliefs of others and just once in a while admit that they could be wrong.

Sorry if that didn't make 100% sense, but I've had a long day.

I would just like to add that it would be nice if certain people could lighten up and have a sense of humour about these things. Life's too short to be arguing about who's right, when in the end both could turn out to be wrong anyway.

There is no evidence of that we evolved, but, in reply, you might say, "why are there 'human-ape things?" In reply I say, "Why so few? Why so few human-ape things, not even numbering in the hundreds, or probably not even in the twenties?" As for carbon dating, its inaccurate... greatly inaccurate. What scientists say is merely a guess. Nothing more, nothing less. Not even an educated one. Our genes are quite 'new' compared to other creatures. We 'arrived on the scene' about 6,000 years ago, considering our genes. And the fact that no human remains have been found near dinosaur remains. On the other hand, there is no evidence that we were created. Like, if there were a God, why so much suffering? Every human knows the truth or whether we were created or if we evolved. When you see a sunset, ask yourself three questions... 1. "Is there a creator?" and answer. 2. "Is there a creator?" and answer. 3. "Is there a creator?" and don't lie to yourself, be truthful. The chances for an evolution are impossible. First, matter cannot just 'pop into existance'. We know this as a fact. It can neither 'slowly form from energy.' The universe wasn't created and we evolved, either. The Bible simply states that we were CREATED by God, along with all the animals, plants, earth.. and so on. Genesis 1: 24 (according to their kinds). Genesis 1: 26 (let us make man in our image). The book of Genesis disproves evolution after creation and evolution alone. As for sin, pain and suffering and whatnot, these aren't from God, but from Satan. If you read on in Genesis, you'll come across the wellknown account of the serpent and Eve. Where the serpent deceaved Eve into eating the forbidden fruit of the tree, saying she will be like God and not die and Adam, knowing the truth, willing ate of it. They were cast out of the perfect garden and they because imperfect sinners, though they did live a long time (900 some-odd years for Adam I think) they died and, as Romans 5: 12 says: That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Death spread to all mankind, because our first parents, Adam and Eve, had sinned, thus we inherited their inperfections and we die. We DON'T die because God said it was our time. Thats completely against bible teaching.

"but most of us always want to create our own "comfortable" Gods"

This is very true. There are a countless number of 'gods' that aer worshipped and that were worshipped, but there is only 1 TRUE God, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service. 1 Corithians 8: 4, also Matthew 4: 10. Unfortunately, the majority of the worlds population worship a triad of gods, or a trinity. According to The Encyclopedia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema [a hebrew prayer] in the Old Testament: 'hear, O Isreal: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6: 4)." Christians did not worship the Roman triad or any other gods. They accepted Jesus' statement that Jehovah ( Psalm 83: 18 ) alone is to be worshipped. They also drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of the Son, and (3) in the name of the holy spirit, not in the name of a Trinity. That is how God is a jealous God. Him himself wanting to be worshipped, and thats how we must feel also, to worship God and God ONLY, because He is deserving of our worship.

There is no evidence of that we evolved, but, in reply, you might say, "why are there 'human-ape things?" In reply I say, "Why so few? Why so few human-ape things, not even numbering in the hundreds, or probably not even in the twenties?" As for carbon dating, its inaccurate... greatly inaccurate. What scientists say is merely a guess. Nothing more, nothing less. Not even an educated one. Our genes are quite 'new' compared to other creatures. We 'arrived on the scene' about 6,000 years ago, considering our genes. And the fact that no human remains have been found near dinosaur remains. On the other hand, there is no evidence that we were created. Like, if there were a God, why so much suffering? Every human knows the truth or whether we were created or if we evolved. When you see a sunset, ask yourself three questions... 1. "Is there a creator?" and answer. 2. "Is there a creator?" and answer. 3. "Is there a creator?" and don't lie to yourself, be truthful. The chances for an evolution are impossible. First, matter cannot just 'pop into existance'. We know this as a fact. It can neither 'slowly form from energy.' The universe wasn't created and we evolved, either. The Bible simply states that we were CREATED by God, along with all the animals, plants, earth.. and so on. Genesis 1: 24 (according to their kinds). Genesis 1: 26 (let us make man in our image). The book of Genesis disproves evolution after creation and evolution alone. As for sin, pain and suffering and whatnot, these aren't from God, but from Satan. If you read on in Genesis, you'll come across the wellknown account of the serpent and Eve. Where the serpent deceaved Eve into eating the forbidden fruit of the tree, saying she will be like God and not die and Adam, knowing the truth, willing ate of it. They were cast out of the perfect garden and they because imperfect sinners, though they did live a long time (900 some-odd years for Adam I think) they died and, as Romans 5: 12 says: That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Death spread to all mankind, because our first parents, Adam and Eve, had sinned, thus we inherited their inperfections and we die. We DON'T die because God said it was our time. Thats completely against bible teaching.

"but most of us always want to create our own "comfortable" Gods"

This is very true. There are a countless number of 'gods' that aer worshipped and that were worshipped, but there is only 1 TRUE God, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service. 1 Corithians 8: 4, also Matthew 4: 10. Unfortunately, the majority of the worlds population worship a triad of gods, or a trinity. According to The Encyclopedia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema [a hebrew prayer] in the Old Testament: 'hear, O Isreal: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6: 4)." Christians did not worship the Roman triad or any other gods. They accepted Jesus' statement that Jehovah ( Psalm 83: 18 ) alone is to be worshipped. They also drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of the Son, and (3) in the name of the holy spirit, not in the name of a Trinity. That is how God is a jealous God. Him himself wanting to be worshipped, and thats how we must feel also, to worship God and God ONLY, because He is deserving of our worship.

Sorry, i'm a noob...

Replying to greyhaze, 750, 751. I respect your beliefs, even though i whole-heartedly believe they are wrong. I believe that you have a choice to whatever you want to believe and to whatever you want to do. You have freewill.

"If someone were to ask them to admit that there's even the smallest possibility that they could be wrong, they would start screaming from the rooftops about blasphemy and the devil. On the other side, you have those who don't believe in God. In general, they will admit that given enough tangible proof they would be open to the possibility of God's existence. They will even admit that long-held scientific 'facts' can be, and often are, either a little incorrect or completely untrue. They are open to the possibility of other truths beyond that which they have been taught."

I've seen part of that happen, acually. Just the screaming part and someone was called the devil. 'Facts' such as the Earth is flat. Will evolution turn out to be a fact such as that? Why I believe in creation, in part, is because of the prophicies of the Bible. Like, in the end of this system of things, (not the end of the world), there will be wars, rumors of wars, plagues, famines, food shortages... True, this has happened throughout history, but not on such a large scale... How many wars can you count since the beginning of the last century? How many diseases can you count? How many can you count that have died of hunger? 50,000 a day. Also, Daniels prophecy that described a chopping down or rulership in the line of King David; after "seven times" it would be known "that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it." (Daniel 4:23, 24, 31, 32) The major fulfillment of that prophecy started with the desolating of Judah, which is indicated by Buble evidence to have been completed by October 607 B.C.E. Revelation 12: 6, 14 shows that 3 1/2 time amounts to 1,260 days; hence, seven times (twice that number) must be 2,520 days. Reckoning "a day for a year," we arrive at 2,520 years as the duration of the "seven times." (Ezekiel 4: 6) Therefore, Christ Jesus began his heavenly rule in the latter part of 1914. When Jesus began his rule, he threw Satan and his angels to the Earth. That marked "a beginning of pangs of distress." Also, we know what other major thing happened in 1914... World War I. (Matthew 24: 3-14 ) Also, another thing of why I believe i'm right (not to sound snotty or anything), but because of the brotherly love of my religion. Not just in my community, but world-wide. We're learning the same thing at almost the same time, which gives us unity. We're known to build our place of worship in record times (1 day to a week for a lot) with electric, water and so on. This also shows unity. The Bible says that Gods people will have love amongst themselfs also, it says that love is a perfect bond of union.

"I would just like to add that it would be nice if certain people could lighten up and have a sense of humour about these things. Life's too short to be arguing about who's right, when in the end both could turn out to be wrong anyway."

Live is short... 60 years with luck or even less (he he), but the truth isn't funny. Its something serious. Meaning whether you live or die. There is no reincarnation, there is no only going to heaven or hell. Its everlasting destrucion, where we have no thoughts, no feelings (physical or mental) nothing (Psalm 146: 4). Or, live on a paradise Earth, such as was the case for Adam and Eve, until they disobeyed God. God hasn't changed his plans for the Earth. It WILL be a paradise. The Earth will NOT be destroyed (Ecclesiastes 1: 4 ). Righteous will posess the Earth ( Psalm 37: 29 ). Isaiah 45: 18 says: "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.' " Mild tempered inherit earth Matthew 5:5. Those scriptures dispel the belief that the earth is going to be destroyed. What will be destroyed, though, is the world. Meaning people, such as the world was destroyed by the flood in Noahs day. As for the name of God being Jehovah, do a quick searh at www.dictionary.com for the words 'Jehovah' 'Jah' and 'Hallelujah'. (This post is directed to anyone and everyone.)

And That ^ concludes Thursdays sermon...

You know... I started to read all that and after a while all I saw was 'blah blah blah'.

That's exactly my point r3fr. Question an evolutionist's views and they'll more than likely show you a little proof and tell you it's the best answer we've yet to find. Question a creationist's views and they'll regurgitate the Bible and tell you you're wrong.

Question an evolutionist's views and they'll more than likely show you a little proof and tell you it's the best answer we've yet to find. Question a creationist's views and they'll regurgitate the Bible and tell you you're wrong.

Worst of all is that the science & facts are being 'refuted' are often (as in r3fr's case) totally mis-stated, hopelessly out of date, or incorrectly re-interpreted to suit their argument!

It's impossible to have a logical discussion when one side won't behave logically. That is to say that it is possible to have a theological discussion founded in logic.

Look at my post #745 and then look at #750 above. 5 posts later...

"Here's how I see the differences between the two groups", "blasphemy and the devil"...

Then again in #757,

"Question a creationist's views and they'll regurgitate the Bible and tell you you're wrong."

It might be

"nice if certain people could lighten up and have a sense of humour about these things",

but it is pretty unlikely when posts are so bitter, stereotypical and humorless. I *know* greyhaze isn't stupid or insane, but it defies reason how anyone can take that tone after reading the myriad different religious stances on Evolution. There is only a "VS" for the smallest minority on BOTH sides of the argument. Why keep insisting that there is some huge conflict?

You are aware that Christianity isn't the only religion that has a creation story and a Supreme being, right? You understand that only a small minority of the world are atheists? Stop acting like religion is a fringe freakshow, please. It might be easier to take things lightly if you didn't use a few people's opinions to batter Creationism and Religion as a whole...

**

I really don't like coming here much anymore. Others have mentioned the same thing to me, so I know it isn't just my own ill-temper.

Please, for the sake of the human race, turn your TV off and acquaint yourself with something besides caricature. Listening to people here you'd think everyone that owns a gun is a redneck, everyone that is pro-life is doctor-killing fanatic, and everyone that believes in a Supreme Being is Jerry Falwell. I swear, if I didn't take month-long breaks from this messageboard I would lose all hope in humanity. You need to learn that the most vocal are not always the most representative.

I like you guys and all, but I really can't see how you can do this day in and day out. You realize this is 750+ posts of the same material, over and over and over? Gah, it boggles the mind...

I like you guys and all, but I really can't see how you can do this day in and day out. You realize this is 750+ posts of the same material, over and over and over? Gah, it boggles the mind...
#759 by BakerStreet - 10/23/2003 8:11:57 PM

wellll Baker "you" just made it post #759! (and me just made it #760 if someone don't beat me!) hehe