Hello!
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 by adni18 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
WinCustomize is a great school!
Even if the majority of members here are not children any more(
they still have a lot to learn!
I have learn a lot of things for 2 years now, thanks to you, thanks to positive or negative comments to authors and of course, thanks to messageboard arguments, they were all very useful, for one who likes to learn!
I must say there is a quallity in WinCustomize MessageBoard, you can't find very easy in a public MB.
There are some exceptions though, from some persons, but that's life, in any activity of life there are always some bad exceptions.
You may ask why I am writing all this now, because I have spend too many hours to read some long threads in the messageboard those last couple days, (you know the language problem for the foreigners) and I want to share my thoughts about what I have read with you.
Some really nice people, both sides, they have lost control when they have try to express their thoughts, both ways.
No harm is made, both sides they have understand well what is going on and they have turn down their tones.
I hope and I wish the tones remain like this.
Why all this happening, this is the important question!
I can tell you my opinion, it is the only thing I have to offer you about this problem.
Reason 1:
In the messageboard, there are some people who like to make fun to others, no matter if their fun hurts the others or they want to be accepted as clever or perfect ones. This gives a wrong and bad impression to many people who may think that this is WC.
(By the way, we must not forget that this is an Intenational site and not all are knowing the English language well, so this may be another reason of missunderstanding and wrong conclusions).
Solution to Reason 1:
The admins who are in general nice persons, (nobody wants to have an admin in his site who sending away the people), when the see a post that it is not well-meaning or it looks like an offence to another person, they must interact with good words and try to make them understand that this is not an acceptable post for a quality MB, even if they find it that it is correct or fun for them, but offensive for another person.
In that way those x persons they will learn to behave them selves and be nice for everyone and the offended ones will feel that at least they are among friendly people and mates.
We are a community, we must help each other.
Reason 2:
Some persons, are giving bad rattings not only for the quallity of a work, but also for who the artist is and this is some times not fair at all, this is for the bad and the good rates too, so the artists, who are always very sensitive, (how can any one be an artist
without sensitivity?), are geting hurt in a certain away.
Solution to the Reason 2:
The ratting system is very good for the admins and their friends, they are happy to see their high rates, so they find no reason to change it. I don't mean here that they don't deserve high rattings because they do, but this is not the point.
The point is, that very few are giving rates and the ratting system rules in WC, this doesn't happen in any other site, there are rates, but not so crucial as here. Some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons!
The solution is obvious.
Reason 3:
The moderation of wallpapers. I know and you know very well all the story, no need to repeat it here.
Solution to the Reason 3:
Make a new section for the wallpapers, a second one and put there all the wallpapers and let people deside which of them are going to be in the main Wallpaper section. A certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section, please no rattings. If people like something let them have it!
A decent name for this second walls section must not have in any way an offensive name.
A slogan like:
"We are not moderating your wallpapers, we let you
decide" is very friendly and no one can complain and give a headache to moderators.
This site is for the people and from the people!
(I know that Stardock pays for the site )
Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?
Yes I did, because I care!
Please, don't shoot the piano man!
Even if the majority of members here are not children any more(
they still have a lot to learn!I have learn a lot of things for 2 years now, thanks to you, thanks to positive or negative comments to authors and of course, thanks to messageboard arguments, they were all very useful, for one who likes to learn!
I must say there is a quallity in WinCustomize MessageBoard, you can't find very easy in a public MB.
There are some exceptions though, from some persons, but that's life, in any activity of life there are always some bad exceptions.
You may ask why I am writing all this now, because I have spend too many hours to read some long threads in the messageboard those last couple days, (you know the language problem for the foreigners) and I want to share my thoughts about what I have read with you.
Some really nice people, both sides, they have lost control when they have try to express their thoughts, both ways.
No harm is made, both sides they have understand well what is going on and they have turn down their tones.
I hope and I wish the tones remain like this.
Why all this happening, this is the important question!
I can tell you my opinion, it is the only thing I have to offer you about this problem.
Reason 1:
In the messageboard, there are some people who like to make fun to others, no matter if their fun hurts the others or they want to be accepted as clever or perfect ones. This gives a wrong and bad impression to many people who may think that this is WC.
(By the way, we must not forget that this is an Intenational site and not all are knowing the English language well, so this may be another reason of missunderstanding and wrong conclusions).
Solution to Reason 1:
The admins who are in general nice persons, (nobody wants to have an admin in his site who sending away the people), when the see a post that it is not well-meaning or it looks like an offence to another person, they must interact with good words and try to make them understand that this is not an acceptable post for a quality MB, even if they find it that it is correct or fun for them, but offensive for another person.
In that way those x persons they will learn to behave them selves and be nice for everyone and the offended ones will feel that at least they are among friendly people and mates.
We are a community, we must help each other.
Reason 2:
Some persons, are giving bad rattings not only for the quallity of a work, but also for who the artist is and this is some times not fair at all, this is for the bad and the good rates too, so the artists, who are always very sensitive, (how can any one be an artist
without sensitivity?), are geting hurt in a certain away.
Solution to the Reason 2:
The ratting system is very good for the admins and their friends, they are happy to see their high rates, so they find no reason to change it. I don't mean here that they don't deserve high rattings because they do, but this is not the point.
The point is, that very few are giving rates and the ratting system rules in WC, this doesn't happen in any other site, there are rates, but not so crucial as here. Some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons!
The solution is obvious.
Reason 3:
The moderation of wallpapers. I know and you know very well all the story, no need to repeat it here.
Solution to the Reason 3:
Make a new section for the wallpapers, a second one and put there all the wallpapers and let people deside which of them are going to be in the main Wallpaper section. A certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section, please no rattings. If people like something let them have it!
A decent name for this second walls section must not have in any way an offensive name.
A slogan like:
"We are not moderating your wallpapers, we let you
decide" is very friendly and no one can complain and give a headache to moderators.
This site is for the people and from the people!
(I know that Stardock pays for the site
)Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?
Yes I did, because I care!
Please, don't shoot the piano man!
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davad70
Reply #122 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:48 PM
Reply #122 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:48 PM
Well, I don't know the coding specifics it would require, but I wouldn't think it would be that hard to set it up so that only this group could rate. I'm not proposing they have full admin access to allow them to delete posts, view peoples rating history, etc.
Anthony R
Reply #123 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:52 PM
Reply #123 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:52 PM
What title would you give these new panel members? I guess Judge
Anthony R
Reply #124 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:55 PM
Reply #124 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:55 PM
Give me the power to rate call me Executioner anthony roberts
Green Armani
Reply #125 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:55 PM
Reply #125 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:55 PM
Not to get off the subject, but wouldn't it be cool to moderate in virtual reality....that would be sweeeet!
Grog
Reply #127 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:58 PM
Reply #127 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:58 PM
First, it's hot as heck and humid enough to require scuba gear here in lovely North Carolina and I'm tired. Can someone explain what the problem is? Is this the regularly scheduled fight about ratings, cause according to my calendar it's not supposed to go down till next month. Just as a goof I read the "About" for this site twice today and if we are having this argument about Exiles and Visitors.... I have to ask why? I logged off and looked at the Windowblinds Library and yes there were a few skins missing and only 5 skins at a time were displayed. Unless I'm missing something this is only a condition for people that have been Exiled or haven't for some reason saw fit to register. Anyone who has been around for a while knows that the amount of Bandwidth that this site eats grows exponentially it seems like every month, to limit things a little and it is very little for the excommunicated and the casual visitor seems only fiscally prudent when the existence of the whole is at stake. Unless I'm wrong and I wasn't about to create a new account just to find out, everyone else has the ability to go into "Edit Account" and decide for themselves what the lowest rating they see is. Personally I have had this set to "1" for so long I can't remember when I changed the setting. Yes anyone who rates a skin with a low mark out of spite needs to be taken out back to the wood shed, but that is what we have some of the best Admins on the planet for. I have never seen the Admins not respond almost instantly to a case of juvenile behavior. Yes I do use the rating feature and I rate with my heart, but on the flip side I have never handed out a rating below "5" because I don't think that anyone who has the courage to send their hard work out for the world to rip apart deserves anything less. But that is just me.
So can we please just let this die till it's next scheduled flare up which I think if we are luck should be in 2045, June 23rd to be exact.
Chris
[Message Edited]
So can we please just let this die till it's next scheduled flare up which I think if we are luck should be in 2045, June 23rd to be exact.
Chris
[Message Edited]
Anthony R
Reply #128 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:59 PM
Reply #128 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:59 PM
Put a bowl of fruit wallpaper in front of me and see my mercy
WOM
Reply #129 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:07 PM
Reply #129 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:07 PM
Davad, I was talking about the rotating moderators. That would be a nightmare. It would be that hard to set it up so that Journeymen and above rated.
Keila
Reply #130 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:19 PM
Reply #130 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:19 PM
Not too diffferent then the one I just read but I have an idea about the rating situation that may work. This all may seem kind of jumbled together but I was thinking it out as I typed.
Kind of like a "this is your mission if you wish to except" type way of handling the rating system.
It would also be able to include Apprentice still which would cause less gripping about changes taking place.
To start off this would all be done confidentially "so as no one would know you were the one who did the rating" in turn found discussing it with others would have you terminated from the list of raters.
Each day the site gets uploads from each category. Special links for these skins would be created before they were loaded onto the site. 3 to 5 of these links would be sent out to different chosen members at random "by the Admins/Moderators" to be rated.The biggest catch would be that the author name would not be included with the skin or I guess the comments for that matter because of the style of some authors writing.
The mail sent would open with a "this is your mission if you wish to except" type thing.
The member is informed of the rules and the guide lines.
For instance the confidentially of it all.
There could be a list of things they need to look for in each skin type.
Is the skin useable, finished, uncluttered. You get the point. This could be a standard list that is sent each time. Could be some sort of check off list also. What ever would be decided would work better.
The member is informed also that they would also need to take the time to load each skin and give it a good and fair look over.
If the member excepts they are then sent the links.
I am not really sure on how the form would be designed to get the rating back. The skin name would have to be included and the rating that has been given buy the member.
Thus some sort of standard form would have to be created.
This would take a lot less time for the moderators to pass the work load on then to try to take the time to personally look over every skin themselves.
Now the only other thing is the members with the rank of journeyman and above are not moderated "as is should be" and their work would need to be handle differently.
I imagine that these cases would need to be rated by the Admins/moderators themselves so as their work goes right onto site. A privilege they have earned.
Kind of like a "this is your mission if you wish to except" type way of handling the rating system.
It would also be able to include Apprentice still which would cause less gripping about changes taking place.
To start off this would all be done confidentially "so as no one would know you were the one who did the rating" in turn found discussing it with others would have you terminated from the list of raters.
Each day the site gets uploads from each category. Special links for these skins would be created before they were loaded onto the site. 3 to 5 of these links would be sent out to different chosen members at random "by the Admins/Moderators" to be rated.The biggest catch would be that the author name would not be included with the skin or I guess the comments for that matter because of the style of some authors writing.
The mail sent would open with a "this is your mission if you wish to except" type thing.
The member is informed of the rules and the guide lines.
For instance the confidentially of it all.
There could be a list of things they need to look for in each skin type.
Is the skin useable, finished, uncluttered. You get the point. This could be a standard list that is sent each time. Could be some sort of check off list also. What ever would be decided would work better.
The member is informed also that they would also need to take the time to load each skin and give it a good and fair look over.
If the member excepts they are then sent the links.
I am not really sure on how the form would be designed to get the rating back. The skin name would have to be included and the rating that has been given buy the member.
Thus some sort of standard form would have to be created.
This would take a lot less time for the moderators to pass the work load on then to try to take the time to personally look over every skin themselves.
Now the only other thing is the members with the rank of journeyman and above are not moderated "as is should be" and their work would need to be handle differently.
I imagine that these cases would need to be rated by the Admins/moderators themselves so as their work goes right onto site. A privilege they have earned.
Keila
Reply #131 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:27 PM
Reply #131 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:27 PM
P.S. I do realize this would be almost impossible to pull off but maybe something along these lines could work. I posted this in hopes that a good idea could come from it.
sig101
Reply #132 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:02 PM
Reply #132 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:02 PM
Perhaps this is just verging off, but why such concern about those users who can't be bothered to even register to a site whose services and resources they want to avail themselves of?
(ooh, is that a participle I see dangling before me? 
)
Whoops! Where did all those pages come from? I think this may be way out of context here. OK, well.....never mind.
[Message Edited]
(ooh, is that a participle I see dangling before me?
)Whoops! Where did all those pages come from? I think this may be way out of context here. OK, well.....never mind.
[Message Edited]
Jafo
Reply #133 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:50 PM
Reply #133 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:50 PM
Coupla things....
The idea of a new version of 'moderator' class...for people to be empowered to rate works is what we really already have...with the Apprentice/Journeyman/etc.....they were intended as the 'raters' of the works....the 'Moderators' did the policing and along with the se other 'classes' between them determined the works 'worth' or 'rating'.
The public [as in non-member] would then see the work, or not, depending on that outcome.
Every member on the other hand COULD see it, good or bad....a perk of being a registered member, and could comment, etc...and eventually through interaction attain a level enabling him to also rate.
I personally don't like the concept of buying voting rights....preferring the peer promotion through interaction or actual site contribution, but it's seen as an incentive to financially support the site....so it's there.
Brad [Frogboy] has proposed [privately] a quite viable solution which if I had the balls would try to pretend was mine and take the Kudos....but he's tougher and younger than me...
I'll leave that for him to mention as and when it's appropriate....
Green Armani....if your glancing at the upload button means there's a desire to have your work/s visible again just let me know....and I'll wave the magic wand for you....
Hus
Reply #134 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:08 PM
Reply #134 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:08 PM
Ok, I never read this entire thread closely, just skimmed through it...but I have a simple idea about the rating system.
Deskmod has 2 rates, Admin and Public.
WC should do the same, have the admins rate the works which they do anyway. Including that of a Journeyman or higher. Please read below to see why the 'Default 6' will no longer be fair.
By default, you can sort the non-registered users by Admin vote of 7 or higher or whatever. You will only allow registered members to see public votes, and Apprentice or higher to make public votes. Basically, it just takes all the heat off the Admin and puts it all on the anonamous user. If the admin rated it a 8, and the public rating is a 4, well you can't blame anyone but other people. That's life, tough luck. However, your work will still be seen because it has an Admin rating of 8. This way there is no quarreling about works not beeing seen.
It just seems as the most viable solution, no thumbs up/down, you can't get rid of it. So improve it. Does that sound right?
[Message Edited]
Deskmod has 2 rates, Admin and Public.
WC should do the same, have the admins rate the works which they do anyway. Including that of a Journeyman or higher. Please read below to see why the 'Default 6' will no longer be fair.
By default, you can sort the non-registered users by Admin vote of 7 or higher or whatever. You will only allow registered members to see public votes, and Apprentice or higher to make public votes. Basically, it just takes all the heat off the Admin and puts it all on the anonamous user. If the admin rated it a 8, and the public rating is a 4, well you can't blame anyone but other people. That's life, tough luck. However, your work will still be seen because it has an Admin rating of 8. This way there is no quarreling about works not beeing seen.
It just seems as the most viable solution, no thumbs up/down, you can't get rid of it. So improve it. Does that sound right?
[Message Edited]
elvee
Reply #135 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:12 PM
Reply #135 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:12 PM
I've always thought Deskmod had a good rating system
Green Armani
Reply #136 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:38 PM
Reply #136 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:38 PM
Soooo temtping......but I might just start completely over.....I'm sure the second 100,000 download mark will be just as gratifying as the 1st
Jafo
Reply #137 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:38 PM
Reply #137 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:38 PM
But, GA...I like some of those existing ones in particular....[I can still see them - Xray eyes... ]
]
Lady_Akasha
Reply #138 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:39 PM
Reply #138 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:39 PM
Ok... Big shock Akasha has something to say
Now now, don't all jump on me. I'm just stuck on something, something that I actually 'liked'.
Does this fall under the 'rating' category...yes and no. But it's in close proximity? Maybe?
Ratings have been a gripe indeed with many, never been a major issue of mine personally but anway. Mine's always been that walls get moderated. Why the issue with ratings, well because folks want their stuff up and they want it to be seen. If there stuff doesn't hit that golden number it won't be seen (Yes, I know you can change the filter but even though folks know that it still seems to be an issue.) Anyway, in the long firey threads between someone nailin' me and me nailin' them, someone I don't remember who had what I thought was a brilliant suggestion pertaining to the walls issue's that would make everyone happy and I even see a potential there that might even please frogboy where it may pertain to bandwith. Ratings don't always speak for themselves, but downloads do (no not saying get rid of ratings, keep'em) But like skins, let it all up, BUT .... if a wall or whatever gets , doesn't hit a certain mark lets say 1000 downloads, take it down! I can't see how that wouldn't be a surefire hit. NO ONE can gripe, the walls headache is gone, and if they don't get enough downloads they're removed,it can help the bandwith, no? If something is not popular enough to get at least a thousand downloads in a month, then what skinner/artist can fight that (EVEN I CAN'T ) BUT, even though it may be getting a 4 rating, but it's getting the downloads keep it! Because sometimes in moderations, (not saying you guys aren't skilled) BUT...what you may like, or I may like, or not like, doesn't make what'll be a hit. I've made designs that I didn't care for all that much even though they were my own, but darn it there were a downloading. Does that make any sense the way I'm putting? And again, the wall wars would be over and maybe a couple of other ones too.
Now now, don't all jump on me. I'm just stuck on something, something that I actually 'liked'.
Does this fall under the 'rating' category...yes and no. But it's in close proximity? Maybe?
Ratings have been a gripe indeed with many, never been a major issue of mine personally but anway. Mine's always been that walls get moderated. Why the issue with ratings, well because folks want their stuff up and they want it to be seen. If there stuff doesn't hit that golden number it won't be seen (Yes, I know you can change the filter but even though folks know that it still seems to be an issue.) Anyway, in the long firey threads between someone nailin' me and me nailin' them, someone I don't remember who had what I thought was a brilliant suggestion pertaining to the walls issue's that would make everyone happy and I even see a potential there that might even please frogboy where it may pertain to bandwith. Ratings don't always speak for themselves, but downloads do (no not saying get rid of ratings, keep'em) But like skins, let it all up, BUT .... if a wall or whatever gets , doesn't hit a certain mark lets say 1000 downloads, take it down! I can't see how that wouldn't be a surefire hit. NO ONE can gripe, the walls headache is gone, and if they don't get enough downloads they're removed,it can help the bandwith, no? If something is not popular enough to get at least a thousand downloads in a month, then what skinner/artist can fight that (EVEN I CAN'T
) BUT, even though it may be getting a 4 rating, but it's getting the downloads keep it! Because sometimes in moderations, (not saying you guys aren't skilled) BUT...what you may like, or I may like, or not like, doesn't make what'll be a hit. I've made designs that I didn't care for all that much even though they were my own, but darn it there were a downloading. Does that make any sense the way I'm putting? And again, the wall wars would be over and maybe a couple of other ones too.
Jafo
Reply #139 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:55 PM
Reply #139 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:55 PM
Lady Akasha...yes, that's been proposed relatively frequently as a potential solution....but it tends to be thwarted when thinking back to what used to be very popular and got massive downloads, namely absolutely ANYTHING that had 'XP' in it or its title.
It was so ridiculous that some of us, including Alexandrie and Nuvem actually 'bastardized' established works and included the 'XP' text in the image and pow, instant celebrity.
These ruined works were 'popular' as hell, achieving silly levels of download but like Britney's pop music, popularity is not an ideal filter system in itself.
Another example, I deliberately created a 'rubbish wall' attempting to include as many no-no's as possible in it....things that people 'really' should not do.....and either 1 idiot downloaded it 1000 times, or worse, 1000 idiots did once. It wasn't up for very long, and possibly would have achieved a DL level that 'passed' this proposed system...a real travesty of 'justice'...
The best explanation of what I mean is....were there no moderation/rating/imposed partial invisibility then the guaranteed No One, most popular wall will be 'Britney's Boobs' [or equivalent]....they are submitted fairly frequently in one form or another....and understandably rejected...
jcg
Reply #140 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:31 PM
Reply #140 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 10:31 PM
The first problem I have found with the rating system is that I can have a skin which is heavily commented (eg. >15 comments) and downloaded yet only one or two individuals bother to rate it. Sometimes no one does. This makes the one or two that do very powerful or leaves you with the default rating.
However, the problems with only letting only skinners rate are, first, I doubt it would do anything to fix the problem mentioned above (skinners can rate now). Second, the amount of work put into a skin should, IMHO, have no bearing on the rating it is given. I doubt many skinners could give an unbiased rating, knowing from personal experience, that someone spent hours on a skin, even if it is terrible. The ratings could become a kind of Mutual Admiration Society. Its one of the reasons I don't rate or comment on skins very often, unless I really like it. I would rather have someone who has no concept of how difficult it is to create a skin give me a rating based soley on the way it looks and works.
[Message Edited]
However, the problems with only letting only skinners rate are, first, I doubt it would do anything to fix the problem mentioned above (skinners can rate now). Second, the amount of work put into a skin should, IMHO, have no bearing on the rating it is given. I doubt many skinners could give an unbiased rating, knowing from personal experience, that someone spent hours on a skin, even if it is terrible. The ratings could become a kind of Mutual Admiration Society. Its one of the reasons I don't rate or comment on skins very often, unless I really like it. I would rather have someone who has no concept of how difficult it is to create a skin give me a rating based soley on the way it looks and works.
[Message Edited]
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Reply #121 Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:44 PM