Donations
Tuesday, July 15, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Upon release of my metalX2 and dinksDX skins, I decided to try a little experiment to see just how willing the general user would be to voluntarily pay a small amount of money in appreciation of the work that went into the skin, and to support future development.
Despite clocking up over 25,000 downloads so far on those skins, I haven't received a single donation. I can't say I'm too surprised because I never believed for one moment that I'd make any real money out of it, but I never for one moment thought that I wouldn't make a single penny!
I'm not telling you this because I'm upset about the lack of donations, or to make anyone feel guilty. I'm telling fellow skinners in case they consider doing a similar thing with their own skins in the future. It's just not worth the effort to set it up.
I find it remarkable that when a discussion about commercial skins comes up you get a multitude of comments about how someone just bought the skin to show their appreciation of the artist's work, even if they didn't particularly like the skin. You also get the people bemoaning the fact that someone dares to request money before they are able to use a skin. Surely the concept of voluntary donations should satisfy both of those crowds, and should at least meet with a limited amount of success?
I'm therefore considering never releasing a free skin again. I may get a lot of people complaining about having to pay for a skin, but at the same time I can at least be relatively confident that I'll get one or two buyers at the same time.
Although I enjoy skinning, I'm perfectly willing to be honest and admit that a lot of what I do is for public recognition, and in the hopes that it may lead on to bigger and better things. As an unemployed graphic designer (something which is becoming increasingly common in this country), I would like to think that someone out there will someday download one of my skins and think it's good enough to offer me some work.
I do create skins for myself, but in all honesty if I only did it for myself I wouldn't spend the amount of time I do on an individual skin. I wouldn't mind the occasional glitch here and there, just so long as it serves its purpose and gives me pleasure. I spend the extra time on my skins for both the reasons mentioned above, and because I want to give the users of my skins the best they could possibly hope for. I listen to comments and try to mold the skin into something the users want, even if that conflicts with my own tastes or needs.
Anyway, after the next update to dinksDX and metalX2, you'll be unlikely to see much in the way of free skins coming from my computer. I'd be interested to know if there are others out there who feel the way I do.
Despite clocking up over 25,000 downloads so far on those skins, I haven't received a single donation. I can't say I'm too surprised because I never believed for one moment that I'd make any real money out of it, but I never for one moment thought that I wouldn't make a single penny!
I'm not telling you this because I'm upset about the lack of donations, or to make anyone feel guilty. I'm telling fellow skinners in case they consider doing a similar thing with their own skins in the future. It's just not worth the effort to set it up.
I find it remarkable that when a discussion about commercial skins comes up you get a multitude of comments about how someone just bought the skin to show their appreciation of the artist's work, even if they didn't particularly like the skin. You also get the people bemoaning the fact that someone dares to request money before they are able to use a skin. Surely the concept of voluntary donations should satisfy both of those crowds, and should at least meet with a limited amount of success?
I'm therefore considering never releasing a free skin again. I may get a lot of people complaining about having to pay for a skin, but at the same time I can at least be relatively confident that I'll get one or two buyers at the same time.
Although I enjoy skinning, I'm perfectly willing to be honest and admit that a lot of what I do is for public recognition, and in the hopes that it may lead on to bigger and better things. As an unemployed graphic designer (something which is becoming increasingly common in this country), I would like to think that someone out there will someday download one of my skins and think it's good enough to offer me some work.
I do create skins for myself, but in all honesty if I only did it for myself I wouldn't spend the amount of time I do on an individual skin. I wouldn't mind the occasional glitch here and there, just so long as it serves its purpose and gives me pleasure. I spend the extra time on my skins for both the reasons mentioned above, and because I want to give the users of my skins the best they could possibly hope for. I listen to comments and try to mold the skin into something the users want, even if that conflicts with my own tastes or needs.
Anyway, after the next update to dinksDX and metalX2, you'll be unlikely to see much in the way of free skins coming from my computer. I'd be interested to know if there are others out there who feel the way I do.
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grayhaze
Reply #62 Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:32 AM
Reply #62 Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:32 AM
Go and troll elsewhere anthony roberts. Seriously. >
Or better still, try creating a skin yourself and then come back and tell us all about it.
Or better still, try creating a skin yourself and then come back and tell us all about it.
juni
Reply #64 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:02 AM
Reply #64 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:02 AM
I added a donation button to my site ( http://koti.welho.com/kruohio/skinz.html ) too. No one has donated anything to the starving artist yet. 
IPlural
Reply #66 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:33 AM
grayhaze, I tried to send through paypal on my Discover but kept getting a script error on the page. I'll see about trying it from my brothers house tomarrow though.
Reply #66 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:33 AM
grayhaze, I tried to send through paypal on my Discover but kept getting a script error on the page. I'll see about trying it from my brothers house tomarrow though.
grayhaze
Reply #67 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:39 AM
Reply #67 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:39 AM
It's a shame that PayPal does have problems for some people, as on the whole I think they do a fantastic job. In future if I decide to release any commercial skins I'll probably go with a decent credit card processing company though. For these purposes, the costs involved with that are just too prohibitive.
Thanks for trying anyway IPlural.
Thanks for trying anyway IPlural.
grayhaze
Reply #68 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:40 AM
Reply #68 Thursday, July 17, 2003 5:40 AM
juni >> Do you put a donate link with your skins too? I'm having limited success now, and have started adding more to my skins as a result, but I'm pretty sure it's only down to this thread. 
Chef Garry
Reply #69 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:32 AM
Sure it is Gray. I wonder if a note in the comments section might have been more informative. Of course that raises possible issues with WC & SD.
Reply #69 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:32 AM
| I'm pretty sure it's only down to this thread |
Sure it is Gray. I wonder if a note in the comments section might have been more informative. Of course that raises possible issues with WC & SD.
grayhaze
Reply #70 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:36 AM
Reply #70 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:36 AM
Chef Garry >> There's a comment in the description for the skins, in the documentation linked to from the description, and in various other places. Obviously I wanted people to know about the donations, so I covered as many bases as I could.
Chef Garry
Reply #71 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:40 AM
Reply #71 Thursday, July 17, 2003 8:40 AM
I see that I should read the documentation before installing but nothing there about donations. My bad but I rarely ask for directions and usually only read the directions when something is FUBAR.
Anyway, my point was that people weren't as aware of the donation request as perhaps one might wish.
Anyway, my point was that people weren't as aware of the donation request as perhaps one might wish.
juni
Reply #72 Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:12 PM
Reply #72 Thursday, July 17, 2003 10:12 PM
juni >> Do you put a donate link with your skins too?
Nah, I just have a button on my site. I wanted to see if anyone actually would donate anything. On the other hand, creating skins is very timeconsuming, sometimes I can spend a couple of weeks on a skin. Lots of hard work.
Nah, I just have a button on my site. I wanted to see if anyone actually would donate anything. On the other hand, creating skins is very timeconsuming, sometimes I can spend a couple of weeks on a skin. Lots of hard work.
Duff Lite
Reply #73 Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:18 PM
Reply #73 Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:18 PM
(I haven't read all of the comments, but here's my 3cents.
cent 1. grayhaze, isn't a hobby something you do outside of your regular occupation for fun/pleasure? Some hobbies may cause nothing while others do. But a hobby is still a hobby and if you're planning on making money, then you shouldn't call it a hobby, no matter how much you're planning on making... even if it's "donations"... profit is profit.
cent 2. As with White_Moth's "anology"... I think what White_Moth is trying to say that you shouldn't stop providing others your talents just because of the lack of profit or recognition.
cent 3. Not everyone has PayPal even if PayPal was working "perfectly". (I'm one of those without PayPal not because I can't get an account, but because I don't feel the need for one.)
I'm late, I know, but just wanted to put in what little I have.
cent 1. grayhaze, isn't a hobby something you do outside of your regular occupation for fun/pleasure? Some hobbies may cause nothing while others do. But a hobby is still a hobby and if you're planning on making money, then you shouldn't call it a hobby, no matter how much you're planning on making... even if it's "donations"... profit is profit.
cent 2. As with White_Moth's "anology"... I think what White_Moth is trying to say that you shouldn't stop providing others your talents just because of the lack of profit or recognition.
cent 3. Not everyone has PayPal even if PayPal was working "perfectly". (I'm one of those without PayPal not because I can't get an account, but because I don't feel the need for one.)
I'm late, I know, but just wanted to put in what little I have.
Zodiaq~
Reply #74 Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:46 PM
Reply #74 Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:46 PM
I think what MikeB314 said in post #42 over in the Pay Packs thread makes the most sense...
grayhaze there is no doubt your skins are A+ and worth a price. I can't imagine the time involved with all those subskins and extra features...not to mention the documentation...Which I must say is extremely well done:) Although most users won't read a single word...who want's to read all that just to run a blind? Most just want to click apply and see it in all it's glory;)
Just put out a couple of good skins without all the extra stuff, maybe one subskin? It's not like you have to sacrifice quality...Save that stuff for the Premium versions. The customer feels like they are really getting something for their money when it comes with so many extras and a user guide to boot.
Basically, I believe that giving away the free ones is just good old fashion Marketing. If joeuser can sample your free stuff and is impressed, they are left with the thought, "This skin kickass...The Premium Suites must be INCREDIBLE!!!"
Just an opinion, Listen to MikeB...He's doing it
grayhaze there is no doubt your skins are A+ and worth a price. I can't imagine the time involved with all those subskins and extra features...not to mention the documentation...Which I must say is extremely well done:) Although most users won't read a single word...who want's to read all that just to run a blind? Most just want to click apply and see it in all it's glory;)
Just put out a couple of good skins without all the extra stuff, maybe one subskin? It's not like you have to sacrifice quality...Save that stuff for the Premium versions. The customer feels like they are really getting something for their money when it comes with so many extras and a user guide to boot.
Basically, I believe that giving away the free ones is just good old fashion Marketing. If joeuser can sample your free stuff and is impressed, they are left with the thought, "This skin kickass...The Premium Suites must be INCREDIBLE!!!"
Just an opinion, Listen to MikeB...He's doing it
joetheblow
Reply #75 Friday, July 18, 2003 3:31 PM
To put it bluntly yes.
It will always be easier to just take something. Evne going through the steps of donating is 'inconvieient'.
But if you know in order to get a product you have to pay for it all of a sudden the inconvenience is muted by the fact that your getting something in return.
In other words you have to go through steps to use the product not use the product and go through steps.
I would advise all who wish to really understand why it works that way, how a comottity is sold, the value of that comotity and what it means to sell, donate or freely give out to learn the basics of economics and become economically literate.
I think if we all become more literate in economics there would be more of an understanding of why things happen and what to do about it.
Reply #75 Friday, July 18, 2003 3:31 PM
| #5 by JourneyMan grayhaze - 7/15/2003 7:23:26 AM So by your reasoning DaWebMassa, the more I inconvenience the users of my skin, the more likely they are to offer money? If I make them go through the whole process of purchasing the skin through a commercial vendor, I'm likely to get more people doing so than if I give a simple PayPal link? |
To put it bluntly yes.
It will always be easier to just take something. Evne going through the steps of donating is 'inconvieient'.
But if you know in order to get a product you have to pay for it all of a sudden the inconvenience is muted by the fact that your getting something in return.
In other words you have to go through steps to use the product not use the product and go through steps.
I would advise all who wish to really understand why it works that way, how a comottity is sold, the value of that comotity and what it means to sell, donate or freely give out to learn the basics of economics and become economically literate.
I think if we all become more literate in economics there would be more of an understanding of why things happen and what to do about it.
joetheblow
Reply #76 Friday, July 18, 2003 3:39 PM
Also the people who hang out on the board or not the general population of those who download skins.
While looking at the ratio of downloads to comments is a good idea beacuse it is more open to the general population, the message board here is mostly people who know each other or some other select valiable.
For examlpe, I would buy a suite just to support a artist. I would also donate to support a artist (like essorant, Chad Ross and so on) if I had the money to do so.
I would also say that some of those i mentioned have almost 200 skins out, have contributed on a pretty consitant basis for a while, and have been featured artist numurous times so they are also better known.
Reply #76 Friday, July 18, 2003 3:39 PM
| I understand what you're saying about the ratio of comments to downloads, but the fact remains that whenever a thread pops up about buying skins there are a large number of people who claim to do so to help out the author and support their work. The truth seems to be that people will only pay for a skin if they are forced to do so, regardless of how much they value that skin or the work that went into it. |
Also the people who hang out on the board or not the general population of those who download skins.
While looking at the ratio of downloads to comments is a good idea beacuse it is more open to the general population, the message board here is mostly people who know each other or some other select valiable.
For examlpe, I would buy a suite just to support a artist. I would also donate to support a artist (like essorant, Chad Ross and so on) if I had the money to do so.
I would also say that some of those i mentioned have almost 200 skins out, have contributed on a pretty consitant basis for a while, and have been featured artist numurous times so they are also better known.
joetheblow
Reply #77 Friday, July 18, 2003 4:24 PM
Another comment if you will...
I too am making skins that take allot of time and effort. I am a graphic artist with computer scripting skills with a background in Architecture and technology (funny though I can't seem to find a job with all this background knowledge) and I know how much time and money it costs per hour to do such things when I could be doing something else.
Firstly, doing these skins help sharpen my graphic skills and keep them on top. I also am adding another ability that I otherwise would not have. Later on that added ability could prove to be the reason I get hired/keep a position over others.
I would also say of giving of your hard time is not worthless when your getting something in return. Comments, advise, practise, and possibly notority.
I do it for those reasons above, AND others like helping others, pushing for education of others as well as myself. Some of my skins will have information on things I find of interest and might help someone else.
I to will be conducting an experiement but with more details and for a longer period of time. Details like people knowing me and what I do, being a skinner who has allot of info on his site and skins that could be helpful, and other stuff. I am also making the process as part of my Thesis for study so even then I still get something out of it (and even that Thesis I will share with others)
I already set up a CafePress site selling minor stuff (and even that has it limitations in the experiment/study)
Here:
http://www.cafeshops.com/joetheblow
Sucks huh??
Hers more:
http://www.joetheblow.com
http://joetheblow.modblog.com
And with all of this I will also get a better understanding of economics, human nature, better understanding of marketing (a graphic designers arch foe) and getting info obout what you do out there.
AND I feel that I might actually be helping some one out of which is the best part of all of this!!!
PS
I would also state that an experiement like this would take months to conduct and need more control.
Reply #77 Friday, July 18, 2003 4:24 PM
| #13 by White_Moth - 7/15/2003 8:55:14 AM My point is a simple one:Keep doing what you do best, and the best will come back to you when you need it most. |
Another comment if you will...
I too am making skins that take allot of time and effort. I am a graphic artist with computer scripting skills with a background in Architecture and technology (funny though I can't seem to find a job with all this background knowledge) and I know how much time and money it costs per hour to do such things when I could be doing something else.
Firstly, doing these skins help sharpen my graphic skills and keep them on top. I also am adding another ability that I otherwise would not have. Later on that added ability could prove to be the reason I get hired/keep a position over others.
I would also say of giving of your hard time is not worthless when your getting something in return. Comments, advise, practise, and possibly notority.
I do it for those reasons above, AND others like helping others, pushing for education of others as well as myself. Some of my skins will have information on things I find of interest and might help someone else.
I to will be conducting an experiement but with more details and for a longer period of time. Details like people knowing me and what I do, being a skinner who has allot of info on his site and skins that could be helpful, and other stuff. I am also making the process as part of my Thesis for study so even then I still get something out of it (and even that Thesis I will share with others)
I already set up a CafePress site selling minor stuff (and even that has it limitations in the experiment/study)
Here:
http://www.cafeshops.com/joetheblow
Sucks huh??
Hers more:
http://www.joetheblow.com
http://joetheblow.modblog.com
And with all of this I will also get a better understanding of economics, human nature, better understanding of marketing (a graphic designers arch foe) and getting info obout what you do out there.
AND I feel that I might actually be helping some one out of which is the best part of all of this!!!
PS
I would also state that an experiement like this would take months to conduct and need more control.
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Reply #61 Wednesday, July 16, 2003 8:43 PM