any advice on tracking down a winXP crash problem?
Friday, June 27, 2003 by feline | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
i am on the verge of going into hibernation, and stopping using my computer. that, or a total reformat.
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
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yrag2
Reply #2 Friday, June 27, 2003 5:46 PM
Reply #2 Friday, June 27, 2003 5:46 PM
feline, I think messenger runs all the time...even if it doesn't show as running if you pull up your ports it's ususlly there listening on port 5000. You can change the registry to prevent it from ever loading if you want to try it:
Registry Settings
User Key: [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Messenger\Client]
System Key: [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Messenger\Client]
Value Name: PreventAutoRun, PreventRun
Data Type: REG_DWORD (DWORD Value)
Value Data: (1 = enable restriction, 0 = default)
Registry Settings
User Key: [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Messenger\Client]
System Key: [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Messenger\Client]
Value Name: PreventAutoRun, PreventRun
Data Type: REG_DWORD (DWORD Value)
Value Data: (1 = enable restriction, 0 = default)
Zodiaq~
Reply #3 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:00 PM
Reply #3 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:00 PM
feline...I just repaired a computer 2 days ago with the exact same problem.
She was having the same lock-up type problems, hanging etc. It was going on for about two weeks. She had a MMX geforce4 420 that was going bad before it finally failed. Popped in an ATI 64mb with the 7500 gpu and it runs like a champ.
Don't know if this is your problem, but I would start there.
Before you format...If you have an extra video card, PCI or AGP, pull out the nvidia one and install another real quick. Might be the culprit. I don't what kind of MOBO you have...Hopefully it's not on-board video. Good Luck
She was having the same lock-up type problems, hanging etc. It was going on for about two weeks. She had a MMX geforce4 420 that was going bad before it finally failed. Popped in an ATI 64mb with the 7500 gpu and it runs like a champ.
Don't know if this is your problem, but I would start there.
Before you format...If you have an extra video card, PCI or AGP, pull out the nvidia one and install another real quick. Might be the culprit. I don't what kind of MOBO you have...Hopefully it's not on-board video. Good Luck
Anthony R
Reply #4 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:16 PM
Reply #4 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:16 PM
Im sorry to hear your computer is taking such a major dump feline. I could be wrong but it sounds like your hard drive has seen better days, all the indications of your report make me think bad hard drive. I had one that did that very same thing,it started out subtle, various weird things would happen at the monitor like images shifting on the screen and then it started locking up and making noise,until it finally died ...R.I.P. (poor dead soldier)
There is a simple way to kill windows messenger, if you suspect that the messenger is the source of your trouble ...
Select Start -> Settings -> Control Panels
[For Windows XP users, click on Classic View]
Open (double click) Admin Tools
Open Services
Double click Messenger
Change Startup Type from Auto to Disable
Click on the Stop properties button, let the OS stop the service
Close up everything, you're done!
Im gonna go hang out now ...
see ya
There is a simple way to kill windows messenger, if you suspect that the messenger is the source of your trouble ...
Select Start -> Settings -> Control Panels
[For Windows XP users, click on Classic View]
Open (double click) Admin Tools
Open Services
Double click Messenger
Change Startup Type from Auto to Disable
Click on the Stop properties button, let the OS stop the service
Close up everything, you're done!
Im gonna go hang out now ...
see ya
WOM
Reply #5 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:29 PM
Reply #5 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:29 PM
MSN Messenger on my machine only runs if I open it. That means I have to go to MSN internet explorer to open it.
Jafo
Reply #6 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:32 PM
Reply #6 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:32 PM
First line of defense...open the box....[turn off the comp]....remove and carefully reseat all cards and ram....particularly the ram...then check again how it 'survives'...
Zodiaq~
Reply #7 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:35 PM
Reply #7 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:35 PM
feline...You will probably get several different opinions from everyone having different experiences. Which can be even more frustrating. It's something simple, the odds that it is something as serious as your hard drive are slim to none.
I'm telling you...It has to do with that vid card. Whether it be the drivers or the card itself.
You can read all over the net about similar problems such as yours...mostly all video related.
And of course what Jafo just said about the RAM
Let us know what you come up with
[Message Edited]
I'm telling you...It has to do with that vid card. Whether it be the drivers or the card itself.
You can read all over the net about similar problems such as yours...mostly all video related.
And of course what Jafo just said about the RAM
Let us know what you come up with
[Message Edited]
Cavanaugh
Reply #8 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:37 PM
Reply #8 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:37 PM
try turning off agp fastwrites - know to cause a bunch of random crap
Zodiaq~
Reply #9 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:39 PM
Reply #9 Friday, June 27, 2003 6:39 PM
Windows Messenger and MSN Messenger are 2 different things.
Disable Window Messenger through Services.
If you want to disable MSN Messenger for good.
Go to your program files and rename the Messenger folder to(messengeroff).
It's a quick easy fix...That thing drives me nuts
Disable Window Messenger through Services.
If you want to disable MSN Messenger for good.
Go to your program files and rename the Messenger folder to(messengeroff).
It's a quick easy fix...That thing drives me nuts
MadIce
Reply #10 Friday, June 27, 2003 7:07 PM
Reply #10 Friday, June 27, 2003 7:07 PM
feline, I have the same problem once or twice a day. I looks like a mouse driver problem to me. I have a Logitech cordless mouse and keyboard. Sometimes the mouse freezes (but the keyboard keeps working). The dump indicates a mouse driver exception. The driver may be the cause, but it can also be hardware related. Lately I have random reboots instead. If I find a solution then I'll share it.
For some reason it didn't happen the last two days.
MadIce knocks on wood.
*** POOF ***
For some reason it didn't happen the last two days.
MadIce knocks on wood.
*** POOF ***
_02
Reply #11 Friday, June 27, 2003 7:15 PM
Reply #11 Friday, June 27, 2003 7:15 PM
Sorry to hear that your system is giving you headaches. A sick computer is never a nice thing.You can check the log files to see if it is software causing the issues, and if so, what software? Right click my computer, left click manage, click the plus sign next to event viwer, and then double click on each of the three categories to see what alerts you have there. This will likely give you an idea of what the cause of your system crashes might be.
If the issue is software related, you have a number of options for fixing it. The tree easiest options to try are the following:
1.) System restore back to a date when all was well with your system. Be warned, if you have any kind of software collection on a second partition or hard drive, system restore just loves stripping the exe files out of those downloads. I recommend turning off system restore on all partitions/drives except your c:\> This is done in system properties. Right click my computer, go to properties, go to system restore, click on the drive that you don't want to monitor with system restore, click on settings, slide the slider to 0 (zero), and check the "Turn off System Restore on this drive".
2.) System file checker. Insert your Windows XP CD while holding down the left shift key to stop it auto-running, click start, click run, type in (sans quotes "sfc /scannow"), sit back and let system file checker do it's thing.
3.) Check disk with the repair switch. The repair switch has five stages and is the most effective switch to use with check disk. Be warned however that it takes quite a while to complete. Click start, click run, type in "chkdsk /r" (again, sans quotes"), and click OK. You will get a DOS box pop up telling you that CHKDSK can't run at this time, and asking you if you want to run it the next time you restart your system. Press the letter Y and hit enter. Restart your system and go out for a game of pool and a beer. It should be done by the time you get home.
If none of this works, you should start checking hardware, in particular, your memory and video card memory. There are some handy utilities online to do this with, or you can just start swapping out parts or take the system to your local repair shop. I have a very good hardware diags program for checking your hardware that I can e-mail to you if you want, but be warned, the diags will run for anything up to 12 hours in DOS, so while running, your system is unusable. The reason for the long runtime is that everything gets checked, including each and every sector your hard drive. Let me know on that one.
If the issue is software related, you have a number of options for fixing it. The tree easiest options to try are the following:
1.) System restore back to a date when all was well with your system. Be warned, if you have any kind of software collection on a second partition or hard drive, system restore just loves stripping the exe files out of those downloads. I recommend turning off system restore on all partitions/drives except your c:\> This is done in system properties. Right click my computer, go to properties, go to system restore, click on the drive that you don't want to monitor with system restore, click on settings, slide the slider to 0 (zero), and check the "Turn off System Restore on this drive".
2.) System file checker. Insert your Windows XP CD while holding down the left shift key to stop it auto-running, click start, click run, type in (sans quotes "sfc /scannow"), sit back and let system file checker do it's thing.
3.) Check disk with the repair switch. The repair switch has five stages and is the most effective switch to use with check disk. Be warned however that it takes quite a while to complete. Click start, click run, type in "chkdsk /r" (again, sans quotes"), and click OK. You will get a DOS box pop up telling you that CHKDSK can't run at this time, and asking you if you want to run it the next time you restart your system. Press the letter Y and hit enter. Restart your system and go out for a game of pool and a beer. It should be done by the time you get home.
If none of this works, you should start checking hardware, in particular, your memory and video card memory. There are some handy utilities online to do this with, or you can just start swapping out parts or take the system to your local repair shop. I have a very good hardware diags program for checking your hardware that I can e-mail to you if you want, but be warned, the diags will run for anything up to 12 hours in DOS, so while running, your system is unusable. The reason for the long runtime is that everything gets checked, including each and every sector your hard drive. Let me know on that one.
hashonboat
Reply #12 Saturday, June 28, 2003 9:07 AM
Reply #12 Saturday, June 28, 2003 9:07 AM
http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp
This is a link for a memory diagnostic program. It is small. You download it & put it on a floppy then boot off the floppy. It will do a thorough diagnostic check on your memory. My system was having similar symptoms & it was a bad 256MB DDR stick that was only a month old.
This is a link for a memory diagnostic program. It is small. You download it & put it on a floppy then boot off the floppy. It will do a thorough diagnostic check on your memory. My system was having similar symptoms & it was a bad 256MB DDR stick that was only a month old.
IPlural
Reply #13 Saturday, June 28, 2003 9:48 AM
: Make sure you have unplugged the system from the wall or turned off the Power Supply, not just the Computer if this is an ATX system! ATX systems have a constant feed of power to the mother board and if you just turn off the system then pull something you can fry and/or damage it or something else on the system possibly... :
I would make sure of the following along with what Jafo said above.
Make sure your CMOS settings are set to Default. This will remove any possible timing issues and resource issues such as Shadowing peripheral resources into higher regions and such.
also, if you find the case is full of dust you can blow it out with canned air, just do not hold the tip of the stem closer than 1 inch from the chips and such or hold it over anything for an extended period of time.
Dust is conductive and also a thermal blanket which can cause things to run too hot causing them to loose their required resistance properties, or allow current to travel to all the wrong places
Also make sure your clean your systems Power Supply as much as you can while it is unplugged. Heat can cause it's failure and also cause current issues which can lead to operational issues for the whole system.
Reply #13 Saturday, June 28, 2003 9:48 AM
| Jafo; First line of defense...open the box....[turn off the comp]....remove and carefully reseat all cards and ram....particularly the ram...then check again how it 'survives'... |
: Make sure you have unplugged the system from the wall or turned off the Power Supply, not just the Computer if this is an ATX system! ATX systems have a constant feed of power to the mother board and if you just turn off the system then pull something you can fry and/or damage it or something else on the system possibly... :
I would make sure of the following along with what Jafo said above.
Make sure your CMOS settings are set to Default. This will remove any possible timing issues and resource issues such as Shadowing peripheral resources into higher regions and such.
also, if you find the case is full of dust you can blow it out with canned air, just do not hold the tip of the stem closer than 1 inch from the chips and such or hold it over anything for an extended period of time.
Dust is conductive and also a thermal blanket which can cause things to run too hot causing them to loose their required resistance properties, or allow current to travel to all the wrong places
Also make sure your clean your systems Power Supply as much as you can while it is unplugged. Heat can cause it's failure and also cause current issues which can lead to operational issues for the whole system.
feline
Reply #14 Saturday, June 28, 2003 1:52 PM
Reply #14 Saturday, June 28, 2003 1:52 PM
feline *sigh*
i have just reset my machine after the second total freeze of the day!!!
this is getting stupid. the machine was never this unstable before. to define before, about 1 month ago the old hard drive failed, and i had to bet a new one put in. so, the current HD is brand new, so hopefully it is ok.
during the first freeze of today my only remaining theory about the lockup's online died. running windows messenger (not MSN messenger) is a serious risk factor for this problem. the theory was it was something about IM programs. however, there were no IM programs running when the machine crashed. i have used a setting in "gpedit.msc" to stop windows messenger from loading. its own "dont run" settings werent up to the job.
there were occasional problems with the machine before the HD crash, but nothing like this, not at all like this.
the only changes i can list apart from the new HD are:
* i updated the BIOS to a more winXP compatible version. i was getting memory errors listed in the event logs in winXP with the old BIOS. the BIOS update fixed that.
* i have moved from the 23.11 drivers to the 40.72 drivers for my video card.
at this point, a hardware problem is starting to look very likely. i recently (say 3 weeks ago) ran a memory scan on my machine's RAM, and it came up clean.
with regard to opening up the case, let me put it this way. when i found that DVD playback stopped working (turned out that the latest nvidia drivers have totally broken it) i took out my video card to see if it was properly in its slot. i put it back in again, and the machine stopped booting. it just beeped at me. i tried 8 times to get the video card into its slot (AGP) correctly, and it never worked.
it turned out i wasn't putting it in correctly, but i have no idea what i was doing wrong. even the man who put it in correctly agreed that i seemed to have it in the slot correctly.
so, after that, i have decided to stop opening up the case. 3 days with no PC simply because i checked the card was in its slot was not a good thing.
hard drive scan here we come. thanks for the info dark_minion. i don't know what to think. should i hope there is a problem with the brand new HD or not? either way i will do that tomorrow.
i have just reset my machine after the second total freeze of the day!!!
this is getting stupid. the machine was never this unstable before. to define before, about 1 month ago the old hard drive failed, and i had to bet a new one put in. so, the current HD is brand new, so hopefully it is ok.
during the first freeze of today my only remaining theory about the lockup's online died. running windows messenger (not MSN messenger) is a serious risk factor for this problem. the theory was it was something about IM programs. however, there were no IM programs running when the machine crashed. i have used a setting in "gpedit.msc" to stop windows messenger from loading. its own "dont run" settings werent up to the job.
there were occasional problems with the machine before the HD crash, but nothing like this, not at all like this.
the only changes i can list apart from the new HD are:
* i updated the BIOS to a more winXP compatible version. i was getting memory errors listed in the event logs in winXP with the old BIOS. the BIOS update fixed that.
* i have moved from the 23.11 drivers to the 40.72 drivers for my video card.
at this point, a hardware problem is starting to look very likely. i recently (say 3 weeks ago) ran a memory scan on my machine's RAM, and it came up clean.
with regard to opening up the case, let me put it this way. when i found that DVD playback stopped working (turned out that the latest nvidia drivers have totally broken it) i took out my video card to see if it was properly in its slot. i put it back in again, and the machine stopped booting. it just beeped at me. i tried 8 times to get the video card into its slot (AGP) correctly, and it never worked.
it turned out i wasn't putting it in correctly, but i have no idea what i was doing wrong. even the man who put it in correctly agreed that i seemed to have it in the slot correctly.
so, after that, i have decided to stop opening up the case. 3 days with no PC simply because i checked the card was in its slot was not a good thing.
hard drive scan here we come. thanks for the info dark_minion. i don't know what to think. should i hope there is a problem with the brand new HD or not? either way i will do that tomorrow.
yrag2
Reply #15 Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:31 PM
Reply #15 Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:31 PM
feline.....who's machine you using (Dell, HP, Compaq,etc) ?
jebland
Reply #16 Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:02 PM
Reply #16 Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:02 PM
Did you download and install the latest chipset drivers for your motherboard after you installed Windows on the new hard drive?
feline
Reply #17 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:41 PM
Reply #17 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:41 PM
yrag - who's machine you using (Dell, HP, Compaq,etc) ?
none of those, the machine was put together by a local computer man.
before the HD crash it was nothing like this bad. something is wrong somewhere. oh yes, i have just had total lock number 4 for tonight.
feline tries to turn off biting sarchasm, but it doesnt work
lets hope i wasnt trying to have a conversation with anyone, or write an email
this is driving me up the ****** wall.
none of those, the machine was put together by a local computer man.
before the HD crash it was nothing like this bad. something is wrong somewhere. oh yes, i have just had total lock number 4 for tonight.
feline tries to turn off biting sarchasm, but it doesnt work
lets hope i wasnt trying to have a conversation with anyone, or write an email
this is driving me up the ****** wall.
feline
Reply #18 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:42 PM
Reply #18 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:42 PM
jebland - Did you download and install the latest chipset drivers for your motherboard after you installed Windows on the new hard drive?
yep, and they fixed one problem for me. via chipset motherboard. before installing the latest 4in1 drivers DVD playback was slow to unwatchably slow. installing those fixed that at least.
yep, and they fixed one problem for me. via chipset motherboard. before installing the latest 4in1 drivers DVD playback was slow to unwatchably slow. installing those fixed that at least.
IPlural
Reply #19 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:48 PM
Reply #19 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:48 PM
feline, do me a favor and do a reboot, hit DEL when it asks to load the CMOS setup, then hit the F-(key) that will be on the screen for loading system defaults.
This way you know that nothing is being messed with in the CMOS settings as far as caching peripheral card resources. This can and will cause exactly what is happening with your system at times...
just something to try...
This way you know that nothing is being messed with in the CMOS settings as far as caching peripheral card resources. This can and will cause exactly what is happening with your system at times...
just something to try...
feline
Reply #20 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:55 PM
Reply #20 Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:55 PM
IPlural, thanks, added to my todo list for tommorow. 1 am local time now, to late to try doing it now.
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Reply #1 Friday, June 27, 2003 5:25 PM