any advice on tracking down a winXP crash problem?
Friday, June 27, 2003 by feline | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
i am on the verge of going into hibernation, and stopping using my computer. that, or a total reformat.
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
my home machine (winXP pro) has two types of crash. both happen at complete random, and i can find no pattern or cause for these crashes.
in type 1 the machine experiences a hard lock. the screen just freezes, the mouse stops working, and the keyboard caps lock light no longer changes. the only option at this point is a hard reset >
in type 2 the machine spontaneously reboots.
both have happened to me already today.
now for the details:
i have run anti-virus and spyware checks, and found nothing.
i have a nvidia gforce2 MX 64meg graphics card, with the 40.72 drivers. these are not the most recent, but they are the most recent i have found where DVD playback still works.
i thought i saw a brief flash of blue when the machine spontaneously rebooted today, so it occurred to me i may have had a blue screen of death. so, i have just turned off the "automatically restart" option in system settings for dealing with a system failure. if i do get a blue screen of death, maybe it will give me some clues as to the possible root of the problem.
the only pattern i can provide is that the spontaneous reboots only happen when i am off line (56k modem, dial up connection) and the hard locks only happen when i am online.
i have been unable to find anything even close to helpful in the system event logs
i thought i had a pattern to the online hard locks, in that for every one of them microsoft messenger (the one bundled into winXP, msmsgs.exe) was always running. one night i had 3 hard locks in 3 hours with this program running *sob*
however, earlier tonight, online again, i had another hard lock without this program running.
i am under the impression that no application should be able to do this to my machine. since i have no evidence there is a hardware problem (and i don't really have the spending money to buy a whole new PC on the off chance) a driver problem seems possible. however, this doesn't get me very far.
knowing in the back of your mind that at any moment any and all work i am doing, and any conversations i am having, can be snatched away from me with no cause or notice, this is really starting to get to me. it is taking the fun out of using my computer
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yrag2
Reply #22 Saturday, June 28, 2003 5:37 PM
Reply #22 Saturday, June 28, 2003 5:37 PM
ah..........there is one other thing (it's the reason I asked you what machine you were using). On some 'pre-loaded' Xp computers you can't change the bios. You can change anything else you want but not that. It's the price paid for never having to 're-acivate' Windows when you change the hardware config. This might not even apply to you...just more food to throw up 
mrtee
Reply #23 Saturday, June 28, 2003 7:01 PM
Reply #23 Saturday, June 28, 2003 7:01 PM
I was having the same kind of problems last year. So I replaced my MB, when I started pulling the RAM from the old MB I found that 1 chips end clip was loose - therefore the RAM wasn't seated properly. I used that MB in a machine for my granddaughter and haven't had any problems with it since.
Check the RAM, my (Jafo's #2) suggestion.
Check the RAM, my (Jafo's #2) suggestion.
Jafo
Reply #24 Saturday, June 28, 2003 8:01 PM
Reply #24 Saturday, June 28, 2003 8:01 PM
Cards, including ram can 'fret' loose through constant heat cycling [on and off].....a permanently 'on' comp won't suffer this as the temp level remains constant [ish].
Ram is 'locked' inplace for that reason, and AGP cards have a hooked insert, likewise, but may still loose contact, depending on the MoBo.
There are so many reasons for infrequent lockups....my most recent was a dying harddrive...where one particular area of it when accessed through defrag or virus-scan would lock the comp to cold-boot level.
Modern drives are pretty hassle-free [apart from IBM]....so I'd be looking more closely at physical connections and possible processor/video over-heating [fan/s stalling], or just good old peripherals and their drivers, eg meeses..
c242
Reply #25 Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:24 AM
Reply #25 Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:24 AM
For the not correctly put in graphics card : I have a friend whose pc-cover was so wobbly (I chose all other components for him, but he wanted to spare on the cover), that it dragged the cards from the slots when You moved it a little, not to speak of carrying it... 
I am in the good position to have a very good pc dealer who looks into such things without saying 'Buy this or that new at once', I don't know if that is an option for You and You have someone there You can trust... Sometimes there are things You can't see or detect that cause huge problems like small cracks at the mobo for example.
[Message Edited]
I am in the good position to have a very good pc dealer who looks into such things without saying 'Buy this or that new at once', I don't know if that is an option for You and You have someone there You can trust... Sometimes there are things You can't see or detect that cause huge problems like small cracks at the mobo for example.
[Message Edited]
feline
Reply #26 Sunday, June 29, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #26 Sunday, June 29, 2003 11:49 AM
feline wanders in with further updates
hopefully the machine will hold together long enough to post this.
right, earlier today the last remaining "common thread" to all of this broke. i had a hard lock while off line.
feline *takes deep breaths and tries to think in a calm and straight line*
i have also had a spontaneous reboot today, while moving some files i had just backed up from drive D to drive E (different partitions, same physical hard drive).
also, it is time i replied to some of you helpful people in more depth.
that is very interesting. i have already uninstalled logon, about 1 or 2 weeks ago, trying to remove variables. this did fix a problem with the SDTaskManager plugin i am using in my OB theme, but hasn't stopped the main problems.
there are no hints in the system event logs. i think i already mentioned that. i have checked many times, hoping for a clue.
i don't know when that was, since i have been tracking this problem for a while now. the problem is definitely getting worse!!! the average uptime between crashes is going down.
ran this, it said give me the winXP CD. the CD was already in the drive, i know this, it auto played when i inserted it. removing and replacing the CD didn't help. i had to reboot to close the system file checker, since there was no other way out of it.
i ran this, it checked D drive for me. there are 3 drives (all partitions) C, D and E.
i have a dual boot, win98 on C drive for games winXP doesn't like, fat32 format
winXP on D drive, NTFS format
data on E drive, so i can reformat D drive with more ease in an emergency, again NTFS format.
the checker finished, listed the output on the screen, and then as i started to read the output the machine rebooted. so, i don't really know what it said, but i think it said zero bad sectors. is this normal behaviour???
the spontaneous reboot reminded me of the total ****** caused by installing the nvidia 28.xx (i think) drivers on my machine, with the old bios. this was quite some time ago, and left me with a machine with an average up time of 1 hour.
so, remembering that i uninstalled the 40.72 drivers i am using, ran a program (nasty file remover 0.7) to try and clean out the last traces, and then installed the 23.11 drivers i was using before the HD crash about 1 month ago.
i have had another hard lock since then. so, that was inconclusive.
then..
i did this. there are two default options, and i selected "load optimised defaults". this was about 1 hour ago, and i have not had a crash since. however, it is far to soon for that to mean anything.
interesting, i hadn't thought of that.
i have never had a problem booting the machine, and the keyboard (microsoft bendy keyboard) is one i have had for quite some time.
the mouse is a Microsoft optical (blue) mouse, with a cord, USB connection. this is quite new. so, since i do have a couple of other mice i will try this next if i get another hard lock / reboot.
reading the post about the system restore point again, i have tried to work out when all this mess started. it *may* have been around the time i downgraded the video drivers in order to get the DVD playback to work. this suggests it *may* be a major video driver problem (again). if so, based on last time, and what i have done today, i will need to wipe this partition, and do a full reinstall of everything.
hard ware is the other obvious possibility. thankfully i do have a local hardware expert who is trustworthy. as for playing with the cards, given my track record i am very loath to do so.
well, if this post goes then i have been up long enough to make and post this, which is nice.
hopefully the machine will hold together long enough to post this.
right, earlier today the last remaining "common thread" to all of this broke. i had a hard lock while off line.
feline *takes deep breaths and tries to think in a calm and straight line*
i have also had a spontaneous reboot today, while moving some files i had just backed up from drive D to drive E (different partitions, same physical hard drive).
also, it is time i replied to some of you helpful people in more depth.
| WOM - My machine used to do that. Both cases. When I stopped using logons and deleted the program and reloaded XP everything was ok. |
that is very interesting. i have already uninstalled logon, about 1 or 2 weeks ago, trying to remove variables. this did fix a problem with the SDTaskManager plugin i am using in my OB theme, but hasn't stopped the main problems.
| dark_minion - You can check the log files to see if it is software causing the issues, and if so, what software? |
there are no hints in the system event logs. i think i already mentioned that. i have checked many times, hoping for a clue.
| dark_minion - System restore back to a date when all was well with your system. |
i don't know when that was, since i have been tracking this problem for a while now. the problem is definitely getting worse!!! the average uptime between crashes is going down.
| dark_minion - System file checker. Insert your Windows XP CD while holding down the left shift key to stop it auto-running, click start, click run, type in (sans quotes "sfc /scannow"), sit back and let system file checker do it's thing. |
ran this, it said give me the winXP CD. the CD was already in the drive, i know this, it auto played when i inserted it. removing and replacing the CD didn't help. i had to reboot to close the system file checker, since there was no other way out of it.
| dark_minion - Check disk with the repair switch. The repair switch has five stages and is the most effective switch to use with check disk. Be warned however that it takes quite a while to complete. Click start, click run, type in "chkdsk /r" (again, sans quotes"), and click OK. |
i ran this, it checked D drive for me. there are 3 drives (all partitions) C, D and E.
i have a dual boot, win98 on C drive for games winXP doesn't like, fat32 format
winXP on D drive, NTFS format
data on E drive, so i can reformat D drive with more ease in an emergency, again NTFS format.
the checker finished, listed the output on the screen, and then as i started to read the output the machine rebooted. so, i don't really know what it said, but i think it said zero bad sectors. is this normal behaviour???
the spontaneous reboot reminded me of the total ****** caused by installing the nvidia 28.xx (i think) drivers on my machine, with the old bios. this was quite some time ago, and left me with a machine with an average up time of 1 hour.
so, remembering that i uninstalled the 40.72 drivers i am using, ran a program (nasty file remover 0.7) to try and clean out the last traces, and then installed the 23.11 drivers i was using before the HD crash about 1 month ago.
i have had another hard lock since then. so, that was inconclusive.
then..
| IPlural - feline, do me a favour and do a reboot, hit DEL when it asks to load the CMOS setup, then hit the F-(key) that will be on the screen for loading system defaults. |
i did this. there are two default options, and i selected "load optimised defaults". this was about 1 hour ago, and i have not had a crash since. however, it is far to soon for that to mean anything.
| yrag - I went back and read the thread you had a couple of weeks ago, along with this one and tried to find a common denominator. The in and out of the graphics card to no avail and then your computer guy does it and it works leads to me to believe it's some other piece of hardware. Since it would have be something that works all the time because the different things you're doing when it crashes it narrows it down to really only two items...your mouse or your keyboard. |
interesting, i hadn't thought of that.
i have never had a problem booting the machine, and the keyboard (microsoft bendy keyboard) is one i have had for quite some time.
the mouse is a Microsoft optical (blue) mouse, with a cord, USB connection. this is quite new. so, since i do have a couple of other mice i will try this next if i get another hard lock / reboot.
reading the post about the system restore point again, i have tried to work out when all this mess started. it *may* have been around the time i downgraded the video drivers in order to get the DVD playback to work. this suggests it *may* be a major video driver problem (again). if so, based on last time, and what i have done today, i will need to wipe this partition, and do a full reinstall of everything.
hard ware is the other obvious possibility. thankfully i do have a local hardware expert who is trustworthy. as for playing with the cards, given my track record i am very loath to do so.
well, if this post goes then i have been up long enough to make and post this, which is nice.
Anthony R
Reply #27 Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:37 PM
That is probably where the problem lies.... Most people would not recommend using different operating systems and different filing systems all on the same drive,even though the one drive is partitioned I think it's possible to create conflicts.
Reply #27 Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:37 PM
| i have a dual boot, win98 on C drive for games winXP doesn't like, fat32 formatwinXP on D drive, NTFS formatdata on E drive, so i can reformat D drive with more ease in an emergency, again NTFS format. |
That is probably where the problem lies.... Most people would not recommend using different operating systems and different filing systems all on the same drive,even though the one drive is partitioned I think it's possible to create conflicts.
feline
Reply #28 Monday, June 30, 2003 4:37 AM
i havent heard that before. i have been doing this for years, starting with a dual boot between win95 and winNT4.
i am starting to miss my old machine, which dual booted between win98 and win2k. it was rock solid stable *sigh*
Reply #28 Monday, June 30, 2003 4:37 AM
| anthony roberts - That is probably where the problem lies.... Most people would not recommend using different operating systems and different filing systems all on the same drive,even though the one drive is partitioned I think it's possible to create conflicts. |
i havent heard that before. i have been doing this for years, starting with a dual boot between win95 and winNT4.
i am starting to miss my old machine, which dual booted between win98 and win2k. it was rock solid stable *sigh*
feline
Reply #29 Monday, June 30, 2003 4:46 AM
Reply #29 Monday, June 30, 2003 4:46 AM
new info: last night, after i did the BIOS settings re-set i got a blue screen of death.
this is the first time i have seen this, but it is only recently i changed the system error handling settings so no longer restart on a fatal error.
i have had both spontanious reboots and hard locks since changing that setting, so i seem to have 3 different forms of this problem, or 3 different problems.
the interesting thing about this blue screen is i wasnt even in front of my machine when it happened, so it wasnt triggered by me actively doing something.
the info from the blue screen is:
DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL
Stop 0x000000D1 (0x00000000, 0x00000002, 0x00000001, 0xF8847C3E)
processr.sys - Address F8847C3E base at F8846000, DateStamp 3b7d8320
i have done some searches at microsoft.com and in google. these are all suggesting:
* a hardware fault, RAM is a favourate
* a hardware conflict
* bad drivers, with some people saying nvidia drivers can cause this
since the hardware hasnt changed before vs after the HD crash, moving up to the latest available nvidia drivers, and then moving down in order to fix the DVD playback looks like the favourate theory right now.
i have already run a RAM checker program, and that came up clean.
however, to fix the nvidia drivers (if that is really the cause) looks like it will need a format, and a clean reinstall of winXP
this is the first time i have seen this, but it is only recently i changed the system error handling settings so no longer restart on a fatal error.
i have had both spontanious reboots and hard locks since changing that setting, so i seem to have 3 different forms of this problem, or 3 different problems.
the interesting thing about this blue screen is i wasnt even in front of my machine when it happened, so it wasnt triggered by me actively doing something.
the info from the blue screen is:
DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL
Stop 0x000000D1 (0x00000000, 0x00000002, 0x00000001, 0xF8847C3E)
processr.sys - Address F8847C3E base at F8846000, DateStamp 3b7d8320
i have done some searches at microsoft.com and in google. these are all suggesting:
* a hardware fault, RAM is a favourate
* a hardware conflict
* bad drivers, with some people saying nvidia drivers can cause this
since the hardware hasnt changed before vs after the HD crash, moving up to the latest available nvidia drivers, and then moving down in order to fix the DVD playback looks like the favourate theory right now.
i have already run a RAM checker program, and that came up clean.
however, to fix the nvidia drivers (if that is really the cause) looks like it will need a format, and a clean reinstall of winXP
Jafo
Reply #30 Monday, June 30, 2003 6:09 AM
Reply #30 Monday, June 30, 2003 6:09 AM
feline....I had similar problems with the same BSOD as you call it...though it's probably more correctly called a memory dump.....mine was caused by a virus scanner not actually supported/designed for XP...though it had been fine with every ver of Doze up to and including 2000....in other words...a simple proggy problem....it would also kill my wow.exe ability to run old 16 bit proggies....and one annoying thing was that ACAD2000 uses a 16 bit installer...
Jafo
Reply #31 Monday, June 30, 2003 6:11 AM
Reply #31 Monday, June 30, 2003 6:11 AM
The only way I solved it was a process of elimination......adding one proggy at a time to a virgin install and waiting to see what caused a dump...
yrag2
Reply #32 Monday, June 30, 2003 7:43 AM
feline- that is a bios induced hardware resources dump. Go back and read #22. It appears that resources assigned by your bios are not the same as your software..namely Windows. It could be as simple as having two 'processor.sys' files or a corrupt one in your System32 folder. If it's two get rid of the oldest. If it corrupted you can do a repair using the Win CD
Reply #32 Monday, June 30, 2003 7:43 AM
| DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUALStop 0x000000D1 (0x00000000, 0x00000002, 0x00000001, 0xF8847C3E)processr.sys - Address F8847C3E base at F8846000, DateStamp 3b7d8320 |
feline- that is a bios induced hardware resources dump. Go back and read #22. It appears that resources assigned by your bios are not the same as your software..namely Windows. It could be as simple as having two 'processor.sys' files or a corrupt one in your System32 folder. If it's two get rid of the oldest. If it corrupted you can do a repair using the Win CD
feline
Reply #33 Monday, June 30, 2003 8:22 AM
i will check for more that one of these files tonight. however, i have already tried a file check scan, and it refused to see my winXP cd, making it rather hard to run it *sigh*
yep, i am rapidly moving that way myself. unless i have a brain wave, it is format time tonight. then, i will just have to build up the machine increadibly slowly, and see if / when things start to behave in a strange way.
and if the format doesnt fix it, then it is hardware prodding time.
Reply #33 Monday, June 30, 2003 8:22 AM
| yrag - It could be as simple as having two 'processor.sys' files or a corrupt one in your System32 folder. If it's two get rid of the oldest. If it corrupted you can do a repair using the Win CD |
i will check for more that one of these files tonight. however, i have already tried a file check scan, and it refused to see my winXP cd, making it rather hard to run it *sigh*
| Jafo - The only way I solved it was a process of elimination......adding one proggy at a time to a virgin install and waiting to see what caused a dump... |
yep, i am rapidly moving that way myself. unless i have a brain wave, it is format time tonight. then, i will just have to build up the machine increadibly slowly, and see if / when things start to behave in a strange way.
and if the format doesnt fix it, then it is hardware prodding time.
Stumpy
Reply #34 Monday, June 30, 2003 8:24 AM
Reply #34 Monday, June 30, 2003 8:24 AM
So far I haven't come across this problem, but it is interesting to view the comments
yrag2
Reply #35 Monday, June 30, 2003 9:07 AM
This is like 'the computer from hell'
I admire your patience...I think I would have blown it up by now. Before you do as Jafo suggests (and I think that's where you'll end up) go to Device Manager and Un-install whatever is listed under 'Processor' tab and re-boot. Also, before you do that, when you look in Sys32 folder you'll be looking not only to make sure that 'processor.sys' exists, but look for any others that might be there. They will be under different names...proces~1.sys, processor.bak, etc...anyway you get the idea. You might even want to delete the 'processr.sys' file itself so that on a re-boot it gets a good file from Windows backup files.
Good luck with this mission...this tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds
Reply #35 Monday, June 30, 2003 9:07 AM
| and it refused to see my winXP cd, making it rather hard to run it *sigh* |
This is like 'the computer from hell'
I admire your patience...I think I would have blown it up by now. Before you do as Jafo suggests (and I think that's where you'll end up) go to Device Manager and Un-install whatever is listed under 'Processor' tab and re-boot. Also, before you do that, when you look in Sys32 folder you'll be looking not only to make sure that 'processor.sys' exists, but look for any others that might be there. They will be under different names...proces~1.sys, processor.bak, etc...anyway you get the idea. You might even want to delete the 'processr.sys' file itself so that on a re-boot it gets a good file from Windows backup files.Good luck with this mission...this tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds
feline
Reply #36 Monday, June 30, 2003 9:50 AM
Reply #36 Monday, June 30, 2003 9:50 AM
yrag, i will try that, thanks.
as for the cause of all this, my pet theory is that nvidia drivers are the sole and total cause. i have been here once before, so it would make sense. i just have no good idea *why* they should be so insanely lethal.
*sigh* no over clocking, good quality components, carefully put together by the hardware expert. i look after my machine. well, if the format fixes this, and suggests the drivers really are the cause it is time to save up and get a nice ATI radion graphics card.
as for the cause of all this, my pet theory is that nvidia drivers are the sole and total cause. i have been here once before, so it would make sense. i just have no good idea *why* they should be so insanely lethal.
*sigh* no over clocking, good quality components, carefully put together by the hardware expert. i look after my machine. well, if the format fixes this, and suggests the drivers really are the cause it is time to save up and get a nice ATI radion graphics card.
Anthony R
Reply #37 Monday, June 30, 2003 10:02 AM
Reply #37 Monday, June 30, 2003 10:02 AM
Feline get out of the house ...we have traced the calls and they are coming from inside the computer 
Yeah, I am a one OS per computer type of guy …. I do not use partitions either because of problems I have experienced with them. I only use laptops… cant stand desktops, I speaketh the queens English.
Is it Ok to run into a crowded fire and yell theatre?
Yeah, I am a one OS per computer type of guy …. I do not use partitions either because of problems I have experienced with them. I only use laptops… cant stand desktops, I speaketh the queens English.
Is it Ok to run into a crowded fire and yell theatre?
yrag2
Reply #38 Monday, June 30, 2003 10:05 AM
Reply #38 Monday, June 30, 2003 10:05 AM
ATI drivers run into the same thing...although they've really gotten their act together of late. Since you have a Geforce 2 you might want to drop down to a Detonator 3 driver (the 4 series seems to be a little 'punch-drunk' lately). The 3 series will give you everything your card is capable of and you won't have the hassle of the new drivers for the things you can't use........http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=winxp-2k_archive
KarmaGirl
Reply #40 Monday, June 30, 2003 12:08 PM
Reply #40 Monday, June 30, 2003 12:08 PM
I had a similar issue to this when the fan went on my video card. It's
amazing what a little overheating can do to your video card.
amazing what a little overheating can do to your video card.
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Reply #21 Saturday, June 28, 2003 5:23 PM
yrag2 hopes you didn't have computer dreams
[Message Edited]