The Cost of Skinning
Thursday, June 12, 2003 by Stephen Lee-Woolf | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I realise that this is likely to become a contentious thread, and will probably get me flamed, but ... here goes
I am becoming concerned at the increasing number of skins (or Icons or Cursors) that are only available after paying a free. The OD ethos has always been that you pay for the system and a worldwide band of dedicated users are sufficiently motivated to produce the skins that go with it. This has always worked well.
I fully accept that a lot of work goes into producing some skins and that the creator is fully entitled to recompense for his work (if he is a professional graphics designer), but this trend is increasing and could deter users from buying OD products in the first place. BTW I don't recall Stardock ever mentioning on it's advertising that some skins etc may incur further expenditure to acquire.
Don't get me wrong, I have purchased both the Orion and Toon XP suites because I consider them to be outstanding pieces or work so I am not bitching just because I want something for free
I am becoming concerned at the increasing number of skins (or Icons or Cursors) that are only available after paying a free. The OD ethos has always been that you pay for the system and a worldwide band of dedicated users are sufficiently motivated to produce the skins that go with it. This has always worked well.
I fully accept that a lot of work goes into producing some skins and that the creator is fully entitled to recompense for his work (if he is a professional graphics designer), but this trend is increasing and could deter users from buying OD products in the first place. BTW I don't recall Stardock ever mentioning on it's advertising that some skins etc may incur further expenditure to acquire.
Don't get me wrong, I have purchased both the Orion and Toon XP suites because I consider them to be outstanding pieces or work so I am not bitching just because I want something for free
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Koasati
Reply #22 Friday, June 13, 2003 9:15 AM
Reply #22 Friday, June 13, 2003 9:15 AM
I don't see the problem.......... buy if you want, don't if you don't want. If you don't have the 10 bucks (or less) to spare, I can sympathized with you, often I don't have any spare cash, but it's the same in stores, they have all sorts of things, I would love to have.............. I can't afford them, so I don't get them. I don't ask the saleperson to give it to me for free. I don't think the argument "I bought this computer from you, so all the software you have available, should be free" would get anything other than a blank stare. As for this suggestion that maybe the price should be lowered to $1 a skin....... pu-leeze........ my skins might only be worth a dollar (collectively), but Pixstudio, SkinPlant, Mormegil, these guys are way beyond that. And, as many have already pointed out, most of their stuff is free.
joetheblow
Reply #23 Friday, June 13, 2003 11:04 AM
Reply #23 Friday, June 13, 2003 11:04 AM
Music comparing to skins is like comparing apples and oranges.
Besides CD's usually have about 15 songs on it for 16.99; or somwhere in those where abouts... so 99 cents a song kinda makes sense.
There is also mass appeal for music, while skins are sort of in another category right now. Anybody can play music, but not everybody can use the skins (some have to purchase a program to use it)
I could see a dollar a skin but I'll bet you that there will be 8 skins in the pack sold for 8 dollars
at any rate, I wouldn't worry about payfor-skins ruining the skin community just yet. I do think though we should be careful and mindful of the ethics and basis of the community.
Besides CD's usually have about 15 songs on it for 16.99; or somwhere in those where abouts... so 99 cents a song kinda makes sense.
There is also mass appeal for music, while skins are sort of in another category right now. Anybody can play music, but not everybody can use the skins (some have to purchase a program to use it)
I could see a dollar a skin but I'll bet you that there will be 8 skins in the pack sold for 8 dollars
at any rate, I wouldn't worry about payfor-skins ruining the skin community just yet. I do think though we should be careful and mindful of the ethics and basis of the community.
Aqua.
Reply #24 Friday, June 13, 2003 3:59 PM
Reply #24 Friday, June 13, 2003 3:59 PM
Koasati, I believe I also suggested that WC experiment with different prices until they find the one that brings in the most money.
My $1 was an example. Another example, I'd pay (at most) $1 for that cursor pack that just came out, but I'd spend $5 for PixOS.
You just need to experiment until you find the best price. The goal here is to bring in the most money, not to squeeze more money out of fewer buyers for a resultant smaller profit.
My $1 was an example. Another example, I'd pay (at most) $1 for that cursor pack that just came out, but I'd spend $5 for PixOS.
You just need to experiment until you find the best price. The goal here is to bring in the most money, not to squeeze more money out of fewer buyers for a resultant smaller profit.
Hus
Reply #25 Friday, June 13, 2003 4:57 PM
Reply #25 Friday, June 13, 2003 4:57 PM
My 2 cents on the subject....
Selling skins is a very new thing, people for the last...oh 4 or 5 years have been loving all the FREE skins, now that skinning is becoming more popular, ofcourse the natural direction for it to take is to sell them. Money makes the world go 'round. Now you got these super-talented artists, like Pixtudio and Mormegil, and Skinplant that make the best skins around...bar none. They see it as a viable source of income. Look at it through their eyes, if you were the best basketball player, wouldn't you want to try for the NBA and make lots of money? Yes, you would. So the best skinners want to sell their skins for money! How can people complain? If you were as good as they were, you too would sell your skins. If things keep going the way they are, skinning will become a very mainstream thing. Five years from now, I wouldn't be suprised to see a site like DAPrints.com selling skins in the same fashion. Hell, even three years from now that could be very possible. It's just natural for people to bitch about it, they are so used to getting skins for free, they take it for granted. In my opinion, skins for sale is here to stay and I think it's a good thing.
Selling skins is a very new thing, people for the last...oh 4 or 5 years have been loving all the FREE skins, now that skinning is becoming more popular, ofcourse the natural direction for it to take is to sell them. Money makes the world go 'round. Now you got these super-talented artists, like Pixtudio and Mormegil, and Skinplant that make the best skins around...bar none. They see it as a viable source of income. Look at it through their eyes, if you were the best basketball player, wouldn't you want to try for the NBA and make lots of money? Yes, you would. So the best skinners want to sell their skins for money! How can people complain? If you were as good as they were, you too would sell your skins. If things keep going the way they are, skinning will become a very mainstream thing. Five years from now, I wouldn't be suprised to see a site like DAPrints.com selling skins in the same fashion. Hell, even three years from now that could be very possible. It's just natural for people to bitch about it, they are so used to getting skins for free, they take it for granted. In my opinion, skins for sale is here to stay and I think it's a good thing.
grayhaze
Reply #26 Friday, June 13, 2003 5:02 PM
Reply #26 Friday, June 13, 2003 5:02 PM
Something to bear in mind Aqua is that even though it's your opinion that certain premium skins/themes/whatever aren't worth the asking price, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're in the majority. For all you know, there could be a sufficiently high percentage of buyers that lowering the price would reduce profits.
I've been unemployed on an almost-permenant ba sis for well over a year and a half now, so I'm well aware of what it's like to have limited finances. I wouldn't ever think of suggesting that they lower their prices just because I don't have the money to meet them though. I'm sure I could scrape together the $10 without too much trouble if I felt the need, but I feel by contributing to the community and trying to produce the best work I can is a form of payment in itself.
I have to say, I was very tempted by a couple of the premium skin packs, but my reluctance to buy them had more to do with the frequency with which I change my desktop than the price they were asking. As a skinner myself I've pretty much always got one of my own in-production skins on my machine.
I've been unemployed on an almost-permenant ba sis for well over a year and a half now, so I'm well aware of what it's like to have limited finances. I wouldn't ever think of suggesting that they lower their prices just because I don't have the money to meet them though. I'm sure I could scrape together the $10 without too much trouble if I felt the need, but I feel by contributing to the community and trying to produce the best work I can is a form of payment in itself.
I have to say, I was very tempted by a couple of the premium skin packs, but my reluctance to buy them had more to do with the frequency with which I change my desktop than the price they were asking. As a skinner myself I've pretty much always got one of my own in-production skins on my machine.
Aqua.
Reply #27 Friday, June 13, 2003 7:02 PM
Reply #27 Friday, June 13, 2003 7:02 PM
I know, and I'm not asking them to lower the price because my income is rather low right now.
I'm saying that they could probably get more volume with a lower price, and end up with more money. $1 probably is too low, but I think they should experiment with their prices.
I'm saying that they could probably get more volume with a lower price, and end up with more money. $1 probably is too low, but I think they should experiment with their prices.
MadIce
Reply #28 Friday, June 13, 2003 10:13 PM
Reply #28 Friday, June 13, 2003 10:13 PM
Well, the price is not very high IMHO. It is about the price of a Dutch cinema ticket. I know what time goes in such a project and I am surprised it is that low. And no, I am not rich.
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
Aqua.
Reply #29 Saturday, June 14, 2003 7:40 AM
Reply #29 Saturday, June 14, 2003 7:40 AM
MadIce, I know what you're saying. I'm saying that they could probably get more money than they are currently if the experiment with various lower prices.
They would more than make up in volume what they would lose on individual sales.
The point of the store is to bring in as much money as possible.
They would more than make up in volume what they would lose on individual sales.
The point of the store is to bring in as much money as possible.
MadIce
Reply #30 Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:13 AM
Reply #30 Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:13 AM
I tell you a little story. About 20 years ago I tried to sell 40 drawings which I initially made for myself. Friends asked me to show them in an exposition. And by chance I had an opportunity to do so. The prices were low. About $25 each. I didn't sell any. There was another exposition. Even more professional than the first one. Again, I didn't sell any. The third time I tried I gave the drawings names and increased the prices to somewhere between $200 and $500 dollar each. Within a month I sold all of them. Moral of the story? The pictures didn't sell earlier, because they were too cheap.
The same goes for the skins. $1 is too cheap, makes the product unbelievable and it will not sell.
The same goes for the skins. $1 is too cheap, makes the product unbelievable and it will not sell.
MadIce
Reply #31 Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:17 AM
Reply #31 Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:17 AM
BTW: I think there is another moral in the story. But that one is off topic. 
joetheblow
Reply #32 Saturday, June 14, 2003 10:11 AM
Reply #32 Saturday, June 14, 2003 10:11 AM
Me personally, if I was going to sell a skin for one dollar I probably wouldn't sell it. I would just give it away. It wouldn't be worth the trouble. (my skin doesn't work! - I want a different color! - I need a bug fixed! - I want a update! WB 5 came out! - and think of the transaction fees per unit sold.)
Funny you mentioned the cursor XP pack because no I wouldn't sell it for 8.95. It would be more like 4.99 or something. (but not a dollar, if you want it for a dollar then your out of luck, but please feel free to download other wonderful skins I made for free!)
anyway, back to the poll question... the more I think about it the more I think maybe there should be another option as she suggested.
Or maybe another poll about pay-for-skin designs.
Funny you mentioned the cursor XP pack because no I wouldn't sell it for 8.95. It would be more like 4.99 or something. (but not a dollar, if you want it for a dollar then your out of luck, but please feel free to download other wonderful skins I made for free!)
anyway, back to the poll question... the more I think about it the more I think maybe there should be another option as she suggested.
Or maybe another poll about pay-for-skin designs.
MarkMcQ
Reply #33 Saturday, June 14, 2003 3:18 PM
Reply #33 Saturday, June 14, 2003 3:18 PM
The moral of Matt's story is don't pay 200 for one of his drawings, cause they're only worth 25!!!
(This is where the laughing and winking icon would go if they worked.......)
(This is where the laughing and winking icon would go if they worked.......)
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Reply #21 Friday, June 13, 2003 9:09 AM
Perhaps, but Mac users are indeed ready to fork out money for the Apple name. I don't think I know a single Mac user that uses a different MP3 player than iPod.
Heck, I thik that if Apple made ovens, refrigerators and furniture, everything in their house would have the Apple brand.