OK - now I'm upset!
Sunday, March 23, 2003 by _Martin_ | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I know that this is a skinning group, but it seems OK to occasionally post general comment
We all know that in warfare propaganda is rife and that we cannot always trust the media, but the reports of friendly fire are really starting to upset me here.
In the Gulf war, the UK seemed to lose more troops from US fire than Iraqi fire, and now it's happening again.
OK, so I appreciate the British army lost 2 helicopters as they collided in darkness, but so far the US has shot down a British plane (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_article_id=173154&in_page_id=1625) and killed a British news crew (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_page_id=1625&in_article_id=173147).
It now appears that a US soldier has been detained for throwing grenades into a command tent.
What the hell is going on! The US parades what it claims to be the greatest army on the planet. Well, from what I see it may be great in mass, but appart from that ....
Now I don't want to provoke a severe flaming here as I know that there was no malice in attacking friendly troops and civilians, but it's just really upsetting that this incompetance keeps occuring!
We all know that in warfare propaganda is rife and that we cannot always trust the media, but the reports of friendly fire are really starting to upset me here.
In the Gulf war, the UK seemed to lose more troops from US fire than Iraqi fire, and now it's happening again.
OK, so I appreciate the British army lost 2 helicopters as they collided in darkness, but so far the US has shot down a British plane (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_article_id=173154&in_page_id=1625) and killed a British news crew (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_page_id=1625&in_article_id=173147).
It now appears that a US soldier has been detained for throwing grenades into a command tent.
What the hell is going on! The US parades what it claims to be the greatest army on the planet. Well, from what I see it may be great in mass, but appart from that ....
Now I don't want to provoke a severe flaming here as I know that there was no malice in attacking friendly troops and civilians, but it's just really upsetting that this incompetance keeps occuring!
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DarkMist
Reply #22 Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:42 PM
Reply #22 Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:42 PM
Friendly Fire i'd imagine to be a government Ooop's for shooting their own side
Frogboy
Reply #23 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:00 PM
Reply #23 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:00 PM
BTW, the British plane did not have a working Friend or Foe system enabled. Hence how it got downed.
http://warblogcorner.blogspot.com/2003_03_23_warblogcorner_archive.html#200031994
http://warblogcorner.blogspot.com/2003_03_23_warblogcorner_archive.html#200031994
IPlural
Reply #25 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #25 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:49 AM
Yes, Friend or Foe failure caused some real messes in GW I also. Apache Attack group, one fired on a Bradly, anyone see the actual live recordings of how it happened and such?
I really felt total horror for the pilot and fire control officer on that helicopter, He comes up with a target, asks AWACs about it, gets the clearance to fire, asks again to make sure, is told again to fire, fires and it no sooner blows than they tell him they think it's friendly...
Of course I feel for the people in the Bradly, that is natural, they never even knew it was coming, but those guys in the copter, they were told it was ok, and right after firing are told it is thought to be friendlies..... man
I can not imagine how the ones on the Patriot battery felt once the news came....
I really felt total horror for the pilot and fire control officer on that helicopter, He comes up with a target, asks AWACs about it, gets the clearance to fire, asks again to make sure, is told again to fire, fires and it no sooner blows than they tell him they think it's friendly...
Of course I feel for the people in the Bradly, that is natural, they never even knew it was coming, but those guys in the copter, they were told it was ok, and right after firing are told it is thought to be friendlies..... man
I can not imagine how the ones on the Patriot battery felt once the news came....
wombat_1
Reply #26 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:33 PM
Reply #26 Monday, March 24, 2003 1:33 PM
WTF was a Patriot Anti Missile battery doing firing at an incoming aircraft?
Trigger-happy incompetentce is the usual cause of "accidents"...... as for IFF being 'switched off', at which end?
Fair return, one Tornado air strike on any Patriot battery of their choice, that should even the score a little.
Trigger-happy incompetentce is the usual cause of "accidents"...... as for IFF being 'switched off', at which end?
Fair return, one Tornado air strike on any Patriot battery of their choice, that should even the score a little.
Frogboy
Reply #27 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:22 PM
Reply #27 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:22 PM
Wombat, the British tornado had their IFF turned off. On radar is just appears as a hostile blip in an area that has been constantly attacked by SCUD missiles.
More British troops have been killed by mechanical failure so far in helicopters than to friendly fire or enemy fire.
More British troops have been killed by mechanical failure so far in helicopters than to friendly fire or enemy fire.
Pac the Mac
Reply #28 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:33 PM
Reply #28 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:33 PM
During WW2 over 100 Canadian troops got killed by `FF` off the coast of Britain . It's an old story that we're probably getting accustomed to but that doesn't meen we should accept that our friends and family are dying by our own hands . As a Brit` it's hard for me to say this but it's not a fault of Gun Ho` yanks who want to kill everything in site , it happens to all nations with an army , we've just been round longer and know how to hush it up !
jay schaeffer
Reply #29 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:52 PM
Reply #29 Monday, March 24, 2003 2:52 PM
FF AND ALL THAT SIDE(THOUGH IT IS VERY UNFORTUNEATE) I WENT TO AL-JAZEERA WEB SITE AND THEY HAVE STILLS OF THE POWS. I WONDER HOW ANYBODY CAN BE TRAINED TO DO THAT UP CLOSE AND VERY PERSONAL. MAYBE ITS MY IMAGINATION BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE GUYS THAT ARE DEAD WENT THROUGH HELL B4 THE END.
NOT TO GET TO RELIGOUS BUT MAY GOD BLESS THIER SOULS.
NOT TO GET TO RELIGOUS BUT MAY GOD BLESS THIER SOULS.
Bangkokboy
Reply #31 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:10 PM
Reply #31 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:10 PM
Everyone hates deaths from friendly fire especially. Fight a war for a year of your life and you won't be running around trying to hang someone every time a friendly fire death occurs. You won't even be inclined to want a piece of the friendlies who've shot at you. What you will do is pray that you've never unknowingly been resposible for a friendly fire death.
queezendorf
Reply #32 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:22 PM
Reply #32 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:22 PM
war is a mess! So nothing ever comes out clean! - plain and simple! - don't get me wrong I'm anti-war all-around.. i don't believe in violence. 
SLOWTYPER
Reply #33 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:45 PM
Reply #33 Monday, March 24, 2003 4:45 PM
This isn't a game played on a PC, FF has always been a problem because people have to make instant decisions about real life and death. I support all the coalition troops and hope this mess is done soon. The world will be a safer/nicer place when Sadam and his kind are gone. Wish I was still young enough to help!! >
wombat_1
Reply #34 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:40 PM
Reply #34 Monday, March 24, 2003 7:40 PM
Brad, How exactly do YOU know the IFF in the Tornado was not operating .... you're not with the Pentagon yet.(Or are you?)
Wait ... if it was on CNN then it must be true.
1) The 'Patriot' (what a GREAT name!) is an Anti Ballistic Missile System .... NOT an Anti Aircraft System.
And yes, the different operating parameters are very marked.
2) A Tornado is a 'Strike ' Aircraft (in this case) .... NOT an SRBM .... but I suppose a jumpy Patriot crew can be expected
to fire on anything and be excused!
3) Curious remark you make re the British casualties and mechanical failures, the very first were part of the RMC unit being
transported aboard US choppers.
Wait ... if it was on CNN then it must be true.
1) The 'Patriot' (what a GREAT name!) is an Anti Ballistic Missile System .... NOT an Anti Aircraft System.
And yes, the different operating parameters are very marked.
2) A Tornado is a 'Strike ' Aircraft (in this case) .... NOT an SRBM .... but I suppose a jumpy Patriot crew can be expected
to fire on anything and be excused!
3) Curious remark you make re the British casualties and mechanical failures, the very first were part of the RMC unit being
transported aboard US choppers.
IPlural
Reply #35 Monday, March 24, 2003 8:50 PM
Reply #35 Monday, March 24, 2003 8:50 PM
Even though it was a Jet, Saddam is supposed to have Jets setup to spray che/bio weapons which is probably why it was locked on and fired upon in the first place with the IFF not functioning, turned off or not...
in WWII the Canadians were slaughtered by Allied bombers who started thier run from the wrong end and bombed to thier right which is what the mission called for, but they should have adjusted to the left coming in from the wrong end of the run. Not sure of the numbers but it was well over 200 that died that day, then later they hit the run from the correct end destroying something like 100 Tiger and Panzer tanks and artillery pieces. Canadians really got the short end of the stick in history as far as WWII and WWI go. They also got the short end of the stick on many missions, pretty much ending up being used as decoys which just about added up to being used as cannon fodder...
They served with distinction in ever major battle on D-Day and many before that...
war sucks...
it really really sucks, it shows how little humanity has progressed that we still find need of it, but I think that the only way to end it would be by force that takes no sides what so ever. Every nation spends more on war and a better means of killing than it does on any one positive humanitarian project pretty much, all in the name of security and national defense...
It might sound stupid, as a matter of fact it does...
But there have been two ScFi books I've read that delt with war in the future that sound pretty interesting.
One has it so you apply for a contract to have a War, you have a set number of forices, types of weapons, and time limit. Each side puts up what it will loose if the war is lost, and there is a governing body with Military means beyond anything anyone else has to keep things in line and to make sure everyone plays correctly.
The other has a Military body that is called upon when someone or any number of governments/people attempt to make war, they basically get laid to waste. In the boks both options worked very well, of course they are books, but it is stilla thought provoking set of possibilities to keep war at a minimum or no existant...
Call them Police or what you will, such a body would in fact be one of the best possible means of ending war as we know it...
Call it a deterant like the mutual destruction system employeed between the USA and USSR all those years... But even more of a deterant in the end because no sides would be taken, if anyone were to act in a war like manner, they get moofed...
in WWII the Canadians were slaughtered by Allied bombers who started thier run from the wrong end and bombed to thier right which is what the mission called for, but they should have adjusted to the left coming in from the wrong end of the run. Not sure of the numbers but it was well over 200 that died that day, then later they hit the run from the correct end destroying something like 100 Tiger and Panzer tanks and artillery pieces. Canadians really got the short end of the stick in history as far as WWII and WWI go. They also got the short end of the stick on many missions, pretty much ending up being used as decoys which just about added up to being used as cannon fodder...
They served with distinction in ever major battle on D-Day and many before that...
war sucks...
it really really sucks, it shows how little humanity has progressed that we still find need of it, but I think that the only way to end it would be by force that takes no sides what so ever. Every nation spends more on war and a better means of killing than it does on any one positive humanitarian project pretty much, all in the name of security and national defense...
It might sound stupid, as a matter of fact it does...
But there have been two ScFi books I've read that delt with war in the future that sound pretty interesting.
One has it so you apply for a contract to have a War, you have a set number of forices, types of weapons, and time limit. Each side puts up what it will loose if the war is lost, and there is a governing body with Military means beyond anything anyone else has to keep things in line and to make sure everyone plays correctly.
The other has a Military body that is called upon when someone or any number of governments/people attempt to make war, they basically get laid to waste. In the boks both options worked very well, of course they are books, but it is stilla thought provoking set of possibilities to keep war at a minimum or no existant...
Call them Police or what you will, such a body would in fact be one of the best possible means of ending war as we know it...
Call it a deterant like the mutual destruction system employeed between the USA and USSR all those years... But even more of a deterant in the end because no sides would be taken, if anyone were to act in a war like manner, they get moofed...
Bangkokboy
Reply #36 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:33 PM
Reply #36 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:33 PM
"Call them Police or what you will, such a body would in fact be one of the best possible means of ending war as we know it..." - IPlural
Subspace messages from the Hadrion cluster indicate that Gort ripped Klaatu to pieces and ate him 22 years ago. He liked the taste so much, he munched thru K's home planet and then scorched it. if he heads back this way, we could hire him to be the enforcement arm of the U.N. No more war! Unless Gort happens to want one, of course.
Subspace messages from the Hadrion cluster indicate that Gort ripped Klaatu to pieces and ate him 22 years ago. He liked the taste so much, he munched thru K's home planet and then scorched it. if he heads back this way, we could hire him to be the enforcement arm of the U.N. No more war! Unless Gort happens to want one, of course.
bmetelsky
Reply #37 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:56 PM
Reply #37 Monday, March 24, 2003 10:56 PM
I'm with Mr. Kuperman - the sooner it's over, the better. Any loss of life is unfortunate - especially any civilian casualties. My thoughts and prayers are out to all affected.
Bangkokboy
Reply #38 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:25 PM
Reply #38 Monday, March 24, 2003 11:25 PM
"but I suppose a jumpy Patriot crew can be expected
to fire on anything and be excused!" - wombat
if the IFF was off the missile crew would have no idea when they fired whether the jet was american, iraqi, english, or something else, so the "let's get the English" conspiracy theorem doesn't work.
when you fly into a missile defense zone with your ____ IFF inop or unkeyed, the primary onus is on YOU to keep you from getting shot down! There are comm and other protocols which must be followed, and the aircrew are the ones bearing foremost responsibility to accomplish it.
i believe that it is possible for some IFF systems to malfunction in certain ways with no indication to the crew, but very, very rare. if that is what happened, we'll probably never know, and the poor aircrew will wind up being smeared for something which they didn't do wrong.
to fire on anything and be excused!" - wombat
if the IFF was off the missile crew would have no idea when they fired whether the jet was american, iraqi, english, or something else, so the "let's get the English" conspiracy theorem doesn't work.
when you fly into a missile defense zone with your ____ IFF inop or unkeyed, the primary onus is on YOU to keep you from getting shot down! There are comm and other protocols which must be followed, and the aircrew are the ones bearing foremost responsibility to accomplish it.
i believe that it is possible for some IFF systems to malfunction in certain ways with no indication to the crew, but very, very rare. if that is what happened, we'll probably never know, and the poor aircrew will wind up being smeared for something which they didn't do wrong.
IPlural
Reply #39 Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:33 AM
Reply #39 Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:33 AM
BkB, so ya think its a bit too out there? 
I dunno, seems like a logical solution in some respects...
goofy ScFi crap aside...
UN sure isn't about to change or be any kind of force to stop war...
Leaving things as they arel, sure isn't about to end it either...
I dunno, seems like a logical solution in some respects...
goofy ScFi crap aside...
UN sure isn't about to change or be any kind of force to stop war...
Leaving things as they arel, sure isn't about to end it either...
bakerstreet
Reply #40 Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:40 AM
Reply #40 Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:40 AM
And what are the odds it would be coming in at the same time two or more Iraqi missiles were on their way in? What would the statistics be like if the people who man Patriot emplacements were plagued by self-doubt every time they saw an incoming missile? A lot more people would die if that person hesitated, both military and civilian alike.
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Reply #21 Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:38 PM