OK - now I'm upset!
Sunday, March 23, 2003 by _Martin_ | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I know that this is a skinning group, but it seems OK to occasionally post general comment
We all know that in warfare propaganda is rife and that we cannot always trust the media, but the reports of friendly fire are really starting to upset me here.
In the Gulf war, the UK seemed to lose more troops from US fire than Iraqi fire, and now it's happening again.
OK, so I appreciate the British army lost 2 helicopters as they collided in darkness, but so far the US has shot down a British plane (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_article_id=173154&in_page_id=1625) and killed a British news crew (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_page_id=1625&in_article_id=173147).
It now appears that a US soldier has been detained for throwing grenades into a command tent.
What the hell is going on! The US parades what it claims to be the greatest army on the planet. Well, from what I see it may be great in mass, but appart from that ....
Now I don't want to provoke a severe flaming here as I know that there was no malice in attacking friendly troops and civilians, but it's just really upsetting that this incompetance keeps occuring!
We all know that in warfare propaganda is rife and that we cannot always trust the media, but the reports of friendly fire are really starting to upset me here.
In the Gulf war, the UK seemed to lose more troops from US fire than Iraqi fire, and now it's happening again.
OK, so I appreciate the British army lost 2 helicopters as they collided in darkness, but so far the US has shot down a British plane (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_article_id=173154&in_page_id=1625) and killed a British news crew (http://www.femail.co.uk/pages/news/iraq/article.html?in_page_id=1625&in_article_id=173147).
It now appears that a US soldier has been detained for throwing grenades into a command tent.
What the hell is going on! The US parades what it claims to be the greatest army on the planet. Well, from what I see it may be great in mass, but appart from that ....
Now I don't want to provoke a severe flaming here as I know that there was no malice in attacking friendly troops and civilians, but it's just really upsetting that this incompetance keeps occuring!
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_Martin_
Reply #2 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:06 AM
Reply #2 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:06 AM
It really is distressing.
Personally my biggest gripe is with the US miliatary command. I feel they issue such a 'gung ho' message that it is bound to inspire 'trigger happiness' and extreme stress.
Having heard the British and US motivational speeches to troops, I'll stick to good old fashioned British reserve thanks very much!
Personally my biggest gripe is with the US miliatary command. I feel they issue such a 'gung ho' message that it is bound to inspire 'trigger happiness' and extreme stress.
Having heard the British and US motivational speeches to troops, I'll stick to good old fashioned British reserve thanks very much!
Styl-X Design
Reply #3 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:06 AM
Reply #3 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:06 AM
yeah, idd, there are more deaths by 'accidents' then by iraqie fire
PrincessHirmer5167
Reply #4 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:13 AM
Reply #4 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:13 AM
Geez...I can't spell either...wonder if that will get some critiqued... 
I meant to say T E R R O R I S T..... 
I meant to say T E R R O R I S T..... 
IPlural
Reply #5 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:22 AM
Reply #5 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:22 AM
no fire is friendly.. FF is a really stupid label for it...
happens in every war, just as civilians end up dead in every war...
There is no telling what is up with the kid fragging like he did, but if it does in fact turn
out to be him, I would not be shocked to hear he is going to the wall and a firing squad when
they get him back to the states. Prision maybe, but they also might want to make an example out of him if guilty...
happens in every war, just as civilians end up dead in every war...
There is no telling what is up with the kid fragging like he did, but if it does in fact turn
out to be him, I would not be shocked to hear he is going to the wall and a firing squad when
they get him back to the states. Prision maybe, but they also might want to make an example out of him if guilty...
DarkMist
Reply #6 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:23 AM
Reply #6 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:23 AM
At this rate there will be none of our UK troops left 
mirdragon
Reply #7 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:24 AM
Reply #7 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:24 AM
I'm from the UK and this has been reported on our news coverage, but they are still unsure of what fully happened. It does seem though that allied troops are killed more by friendly fire than hostile fire. This happened in the last gulf war and possibly in afghanastan.
What gets me was that last GW they had saddam in sights but were told not to kill him, will they do the same this time?
What gets me was that last GW they had saddam in sights but were told not to kill him, will they do the same this time?
DarkMist
Reply #8 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:28 AM
Reply #8 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:28 AM
I hear they think Saddam may be dead with his son's, as the bunker they believed he was in was bombed on the first night
PrincessHirmer5167
Reply #9 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:30 AM
Reply #9 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:30 AM
I wonder if he's dead already, since no one has heard from him...you'd think they'd find that out instead of continuing their bombing and wasting money..I have a son in the Navy, he's been in 12 years, he hasn't gone over there yet, but you wouldn't believe the stories he has to tell....unbelievable..
IPlural
Reply #10 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:12 AM
Reply #10 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:12 AM
In a high tech war you have operating systems to deal with and programming bugs, loose chips or connections, dust is a hell of a conductor bridging cricuits, someones Friend or Foe gets turned off, or is thruned on so it shows it is active and it isn't. People get lost and button down in the middle of the night 400 yards off from where they are supposed to be, they call for clearance, AWACS looks see's everyone is supposed to be 400 yards left, clear to shoot, FIRE BOOMB< ah, guys that was one of ours....
its a mess... sad to say but there will probably be more.
That kid, Marine who fragged the CO, is Muslim and everyone who knew him was worried about how he had been acting for a couple of weeks and this last week even more so...
16 people, now 1 of those has died...
its a mess... sad to say but there will probably be more.
That kid, Marine who fragged the CO, is Muslim and everyone who knew him was worried about how he had been acting for a couple of weeks and this last week even more so...
16 people, now 1 of those has died...
IPlural
Reply #11 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:15 AM
Reply #11 Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:15 AM
they will bomb and kill until such time as everyone in the Iraqi army stops shooting... Then occupation and then the real nasty stuff starts...
Suicide bombers, RPG attacks, etc....
The build up is there already, so who's next Iran? Lybia? Syria? I can not see then pulling all those forces and equipment out when there is still Bush's Axis of Evil, though he holds that list close to his chest....
Suicide bombers, RPG attacks, etc....
The build up is there already, so who's next Iran? Lybia? Syria? I can not see then pulling all those forces and equipment out when there is still Bush's Axis of Evil, though he holds that list close to his chest....
Larry Kuperman
Reply #12 Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:55 PM
Reply #12 Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:55 PM
The difficulties of coordinating thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of soldiers in this kind of mission cannot be underestimated. The British, American and Australian forces have limited experience in working together.
Despite any and all precautions that we might take, humans make mistakes. Saying that we are 99% accurate, doesn't help if you are in the 1%. When thousands of missles and bombs are in use, even an error rate of one tenth of one percent can result in fatalities.
That being said, our hearts go out to the families of the soldiers killed in action. I am sure that steps are being taken to prevent repetitions in the future.
Despite any and all precautions that we might take, humans make mistakes. Saying that we are 99% accurate, doesn't help if you are in the 1%. When thousands of missles and bombs are in use, even an error rate of one tenth of one percent can result in fatalities.
That being said, our hearts go out to the families of the soldiers killed in action. I am sure that steps are being taken to prevent repetitions in the future.
_Martin_
Reply #13 Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:35 PM
Reply #13 Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:35 PM
Thanks Larry for your rational words.
Having had a day to calm down, I'm less stressed, though obviously still upset.
Hopefully, this will be the last of this sort of thing. The sooner it's over the better!
Having had a day to calm down, I'm less stressed, though obviously still upset.
Hopefully, this will be the last of this sort of thing. The sooner it's over the better!
Larry Kuperman
Reply #14 Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:55 PM
Reply #14 Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:55 PM
I just listened to a British commanding officer speaking on CNN. I wish I could capture the brave commitment of his words and his tone. The closest that I can come is to repeat what was said by Prime Minister Tony Blair who said that it was the "bitter fruit of a necessary war."
You are right. The sooner it is over, the better for all.
You are right. The sooner it is over, the better for all.
Frogboy
Reply #15 Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:10 PM
Reply #15 Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:10 PM
It's statistics.
You have 200,000 people with guns and a certain percentage of bad things is going to happen.
Friendly fire has always been a real problem. In fact, in World War II a much MUCH larger percentage of casualties were due to friendly fire than they are today. The difference is that we have the media all over the place.
You have 200,000 people with guns and a certain percentage of bad things is going to happen.
Friendly fire has always been a real problem. In fact, in World War II a much MUCH larger percentage of casualties were due to friendly fire than they are today. The difference is that we have the media all over the place.
Jafo
Reply #16 Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:58 PM
Reply #16 Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:58 PM
As Frogboy says...it is more a case of media coverage than it is of an 'increase' in incidence.
In the good-ol' days it would just not have been mentioned for propaganda/morale reasons. Military intelligence was infinitely more 'feeble' and would have statistically resulted in significant 'friendly-fire' casualties.
If some US nutter has intentionally blown up his own people he should theoretically be facing execution. I know that'd normally be the case in a 'declared' War situation...
In the good-ol' days it would just not have been mentioned for propaganda/morale reasons. Military intelligence was infinitely more 'feeble' and would have statistically resulted in significant 'friendly-fire' casualties.
If some US nutter has intentionally blown up his own people he should theoretically be facing execution. I know that'd normally be the case in a 'declared' War situation...
sig101
Reply #17 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:34 PM
Reply #17 Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:34 PM
Previously I'd heard that 25% of coalition casualties in the Gulf war were due to "friendly fire."
DarkMist
Reply #20 Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:32 PM
Reply #20 Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:32 PM
No such thing as friendly fire apart from a game of paint ball with your bud's........and this ain't no paint ball
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Reply #1 Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:59 AM