US is going to war tomarrow... dang...
Sunday, March 16, 2003 by IPlural | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
opps
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Xerraire
Reply #1482 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:06 AM
Reply #1482 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:06 AM
I mean its easy to criticize.
Its harder to come up with real alternatives and answers.
Its harder to come up with real alternatives and answers.
@shu
Reply #1483 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:13 AM
Reply #1483 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:13 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=42596373
moshi
Reply #1484 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:17 AM
Reply #1484 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:17 AM
the real alternative to prevent terrorism would be to eliminate the reasons (injustice) for it. if the Jewish settlers would leave the occupied territories in Palestine, it would a lot harder for Hamas or the Jihad to recruit young men. (it´s mostly young men that are interested in blowing things up).
this war creates a lot of hate, not only in the Middle East, but in the world. and it´s pretty obvious that some people will seek revenge for the innocents killed by Ameerican bomb. look at the demographics in this region, about 50% of the population is younger than 18.
after this war Al-Kaida will be stronger than it ever was.
this war creates a lot of hate, not only in the Middle East, but in the world. and it´s pretty obvious that some people will seek revenge for the innocents killed by Ameerican bomb. look at the demographics in this region, about 50% of the population is younger than 18.
after this war Al-Kaida will be stronger than it ever was.
@shu
Reply #1485 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:17 AM
Reply #1485 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:17 AM
Another one. 
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=41698048
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?msid=41698048
@shu
Reply #1487 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:36 AM
Reply #1487 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:36 AM
This should have been posted before, though it would've been futile.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0819-01.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0819-01.htm
Bangkokboy
Reply #1489 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 9:31 AM
Reply #1489 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 9:31 AM
i doubt that we'll easily find much sarin or anything else laying around - Saddam did a good job of hiding it from the inspectors. i do suspect that construction projects in iraq will be unearthing "nasty surprises" here and there for the next 50 years or so.
"after this war Al-Kaida will be stronger than it ever was" - moshi
you're probably right, moshi, but they'll no longer be operating a semi-sophisticated chemical/biological skunkworks in northern iraq with a free hand and no restraint.
"after this war Al-Kaida will be stronger than it ever was" - moshi
you're probably right, moshi, but they'll no longer be operating a semi-sophisticated chemical/biological skunkworks in northern iraq with a free hand and no restraint.
craeonics
Reply #1490 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:17 AM
Reply #1490 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:17 AM
"We can't find chemical weapons, so they must have hidden them".
Anyhow, it's better to be critical/skeptical than to blindly conform. One solution is education. People over there seem to be completely misguided as to the world outside their area (though one can apply that to numerous other countries) and thus have plenty of misconceptions, which leads to distrust, etcetera etcetera. Education could, shall we, "open their eyes".
Anyhow, it's better to be critical/skeptical than to blindly conform. One solution is education. People over there seem to be completely misguided as to the world outside their area (though one can apply that to numerous other countries) and thus have plenty of misconceptions, which leads to distrust, etcetera etcetera. Education could, shall we, "open their eyes".
DavidK
Reply #1491 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:48 AM
Reply #1491 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:48 AM
Education could change the entire world. Not even teaching any particular ideology or world-view but just making people more literate. That's the best promise of the internet, to provide information and educational tools to anyone in the world that can get to a computer and a phone at the same time. Unfortunately this would be viewed by some in power as destructive because a well educated population makes terrible slaves for industry.
I'd be willing to bet there's tons of chemical weapons buried in Iraq. In fact we know there is because the UN teams buried them. As for where they got those weapons no one seems to care. As for the US not using such weapons themselves, again, no one seems to want to accept the truth.
Don't you wonder, since the US admitedly "gave" Iraq tons of Chemical and Biological weapons, delivery systems to target their neighbors, and protective suits, masks etc. Don't you wonder why the US HAD this stuff to give and was so willing to look the other way when Saddam used them?
It was Donald Rumsfeld that delivered a check for $50 million to Saddam personaly (there's a great photo of them smiling and shaking hands like one of those Publisher's Clearing House pictures with the giant check) only weeks after Saddam had gassed the Kurds. It fit the Republican administrations desires at the time.
My wife told me on CNN they were saying that Peter Arnnet was once fired for reporting the US had dropped VX nerve gas on a population in Laos. They said he was fired for reporting a false story. Actually, he was fired for reporting a classified story that the Defense Department didn't want being disclosed.
I remember the incident when it happened and I remember shortly after it happened seeing the DOD documents proving that the story was true. I think it was Ramparts magazine that published them. We dropped two 50lb cannisters of VX nerve gas on a civilian population in Laos. The death toll was never confirmed because the reporters who were there were forced out of the country and the final toll was classified, as were any details of the event. But it did happen.
Saddam was disarmed of his US and Russian supplied arsenal of Weapons of Nasty Destruction by the UNSCOM teams in the '90's. All the stories of atrocities he committed are from twelve years ago. Yes, they are true. For the last twelve years however we don't have much evidence of him attacking or invading or gassing anyone. If the US digs up some gas canisters or warhead delivery systems from some hole in the desert, rusting and deteriorated, why would it be a surprise?
I'd be willing to bet there's tons of chemical weapons buried in Iraq. In fact we know there is because the UN teams buried them. As for where they got those weapons no one seems to care. As for the US not using such weapons themselves, again, no one seems to want to accept the truth.
Don't you wonder, since the US admitedly "gave" Iraq tons of Chemical and Biological weapons, delivery systems to target their neighbors, and protective suits, masks etc. Don't you wonder why the US HAD this stuff to give and was so willing to look the other way when Saddam used them?
It was Donald Rumsfeld that delivered a check for $50 million to Saddam personaly (there's a great photo of them smiling and shaking hands like one of those Publisher's Clearing House pictures with the giant check) only weeks after Saddam had gassed the Kurds. It fit the Republican administrations desires at the time.
My wife told me on CNN they were saying that Peter Arnnet was once fired for reporting the US had dropped VX nerve gas on a population in Laos. They said he was fired for reporting a false story. Actually, he was fired for reporting a classified story that the Defense Department didn't want being disclosed.
I remember the incident when it happened and I remember shortly after it happened seeing the DOD documents proving that the story was true. I think it was Ramparts magazine that published them. We dropped two 50lb cannisters of VX nerve gas on a civilian population in Laos. The death toll was never confirmed because the reporters who were there were forced out of the country and the final toll was classified, as were any details of the event. But it did happen.
Saddam was disarmed of his US and Russian supplied arsenal of Weapons of Nasty Destruction by the UNSCOM teams in the '90's. All the stories of atrocities he committed are from twelve years ago. Yes, they are true. For the last twelve years however we don't have much evidence of him attacking or invading or gassing anyone. If the US digs up some gas canisters or warhead delivery systems from some hole in the desert, rusting and deteriorated, why would it be a surprise?
paxx
Reply #1492 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:59 AM
Reply #1492 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 10:59 AM
Education is good, but it's not everything.
Don't forget Iraq was one of the most educated people in the Middle East back in the 70's, before the Iran/Iraq war.
So, yes, education is good, but it needs to be associated with a good government and of course an absence of bombs dropping over your heads.
Don't forget Iraq was one of the most educated people in the Middle East back in the 70's, before the Iran/Iraq war.
So, yes, education is good, but it needs to be associated with a good government and of course an absence of bombs dropping over your heads.
DavidK
Reply #1493 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:00 AM
Reply #1493 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:00 AM
I only saw one person here (yvonne) talking about "depleted uranium". This is a terrible ecological catastrophe for the civilian population very much on a par with using chemical weapons. It's known to cause cancer and birth defects forever in the places it's used. The US would like you to believe that it's harmless but there is proof that the effects are devastating. Many scientists and medical professionals tried (and are still trying) to get its use banned because of documented alarming increases in the terrible health effects it causes every place it has been used.
Those of you who are concerned about the quality of Iraqi life should be deeply concerned about this as well.
Those of you who are concerned about the quality of Iraqi life should be deeply concerned about this as well.
Bangkokboy
Reply #1494 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:25 AM
Reply #1494 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 11:25 AM
education must be accompanied by opportunity, or it only accentuates unrest, frustration, and hopelessness.
to complete the education of someone, the teachers must convince the student that he can't go through life trusting teachers.
to complete the education of someone, the teachers must convince the student that he can't go through life trusting teachers.
Doreen
Reply #1495 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:09 PM
Reply #1495 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:09 PM
commercial time again.... sorry guys me has to stick my two cents/thoughts in here
I sure hope that POW girl that was rescueded realizes who her true hero was (that iraqi guy) he is the hero so far from all the crap I'm hearing so far...
anyways I hope she gets well and remembers to go thank him first and then the troops that grabbed her cuz she surely would not have made it out
okay back to your stuff guys.. sorry hehe
(I was just alittle shocked when I heard the whole story cuz I did not know it was an iraqi guy I thought it was just some special force that did that thing but it would have never happened if that one guy did not feel that compasion in his heart to step up)
I sure hope that POW girl that was rescueded realizes who her true hero was (that iraqi guy) he is the hero so far from all the crap I'm hearing so far...
anyways I hope she gets well and remembers to go thank him first and then the troops that grabbed her cuz she surely would not have made it out
okay back to your stuff guys.. sorry hehe
(I was just alittle shocked when I heard the whole story cuz I did not know it was an iraqi guy I thought it was just some special force that did that thing but it would have never happened if that one guy did not feel that compasion in his heart to step up)
Doreen
Reply #1496 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:11 PM
Reply #1496 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:11 PM
Jafo that rescueded word looks funny is that right? hehe
oh nevermind...
oh nevermind...
bakerstreet
Reply #1497 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:14 PM
Reply #1497 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 12:14 PM
" It's known to cause cancer and birth defects "
oddly, the last few times those claims have been made, no subsequent studies could find a link. Now of course, you'll say that those studies were rigged, so why am i posting. Do you often wonder who ate your strawberries?
**
As for education, how are you impose upon them *what* to study, and who will teach them? How would a radical madrassa education compare to a US public school education, as far as tolerance and understanding? Who is gonna tell them they need to take hateful religious ideas out of their schools?
No, it wasn't in school that I learned objective thinking and the value of human life. Timothy McVeigh and the rest of the 'black UN helicopter' conspiracy militia crowd went to the same kind of schools I did. No doubt many good students get a madrassa education and never feel unreasonable hate for others. Terrorist ideals don't come from intellectual knowledge. They come from twisted morals and a lifetime of misinformation by people a lot closer than teachers in school.
Terrorism will be around as long a it makes billions of dollars worldwide. Money is the reinforcement for what would otherwise be improbable acts. When the settlers pull out of the occupied territories, Israel reverts back to its intended size, and Jerusalem is under UN control like it was supposed to have been, then Hamas will fall back on the qu'ran and Israel will need to cease to exist entirely.
Once the money dries up, though, the political machine will need to get a real job, and 'terrorism' will drop back down to the normal crackpot level the rest of the world endures.
oddly, the last few times those claims have been made, no subsequent studies could find a link. Now of course, you'll say that those studies were rigged, so why am i posting. Do you often wonder who ate your strawberries?
**
As for education, how are you impose upon them *what* to study, and who will teach them? How would a radical madrassa education compare to a US public school education, as far as tolerance and understanding? Who is gonna tell them they need to take hateful religious ideas out of their schools?
No, it wasn't in school that I learned objective thinking and the value of human life. Timothy McVeigh and the rest of the 'black UN helicopter' conspiracy militia crowd went to the same kind of schools I did. No doubt many good students get a madrassa education and never feel unreasonable hate for others. Terrorist ideals don't come from intellectual knowledge. They come from twisted morals and a lifetime of misinformation by people a lot closer than teachers in school.
Terrorism will be around as long a it makes billions of dollars worldwide. Money is the reinforcement for what would otherwise be improbable acts. When the settlers pull out of the occupied territories, Israel reverts back to its intended size, and Jerusalem is under UN control like it was supposed to have been, then Hamas will fall back on the qu'ran and Israel will need to cease to exist entirely.
Once the money dries up, though, the political machine will need to get a real job, and 'terrorism' will drop back down to the normal crackpot level the rest of the world endures.
sig101
Reply #1498 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 2:09 PM
Reply #1498 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 2:09 PM
Actually, David, re: Arnett and the Operation Tailwind story (CNN alleged it was a mission to kill American defectors in Laos and allegedly sarin was used), the story's producers were fired from CNN when the story blew up (and it did appear to me that they did use some questionable editing and persented their assumptions as fact to present the story they wanted in the piece). But Arnett, who first was a proud member of the team but later distanced himself by saying he had nothing to do with the story but a voice over and the use of his name, stayed on with CNN. His contract later was not renewed. Not quite the same as being summarily fired. For someone who had nothing to do with the CNN piece and just read a script, as he later said, he nevetheless had a companion article under his name in Time magazine which evidently was not his reporting. When it blew up, he was just a bystander, not an investigative reporter. Seemed shoddy journalism to me, although no doubt many "reporters'" pieces are basically some unseen producer's work.
As for what else may have happened in Laos, I don't claim to know. But I thought much less of Arnett after that episode and how he was quick to first take credit for a piece and later wipe his hands of it and his colleagues.
As for what else may have happened in Laos, I don't claim to know. But I thought much less of Arnett after that episode and how he was quick to first take credit for a piece and later wipe his hands of it and his colleagues.
sig101
Reply #1499 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 2:33 PM
Reply #1499 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 2:33 PM
@shu, re: your last link, I myself have wondered how the US "friendship" with the Saudis might change if there was a more US friendly gov't in Iraq.
paxx
Reply #1500 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:04 PM
Reply #1500 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 7:04 PM
Hey, off topic, sort of...
There is something I don't understand, maybe somebody can explain. Or maybe it's just here?
Anyway, before the war, gas in Canada (or at least in Quebec) was around 89 cents per litre, but since the war started, it just keeps droping and droping. Last night when I filled up, it was at 74 cents. 15 cents drop in 2 weeks??? I've never seen such a drop so fast before. And I thought the war would make gas more expensive, not cheaper. Is it that the big oil companies feels reassured by the war and the future accessibility of oil in Iraq?
I just don't get it. Anybody?
There is something I don't understand, maybe somebody can explain. Or maybe it's just here?
Anyway, before the war, gas in Canada (or at least in Quebec) was around 89 cents per litre, but since the war started, it just keeps droping and droping. Last night when I filled up, it was at 74 cents. 15 cents drop in 2 weeks??? I've never seen such a drop so fast before. And I thought the war would make gas more expensive, not cheaper. Is it that the big oil companies feels reassured by the war and the future accessibility of oil in Iraq?
I just don't get it. Anybody?
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Reply #1481 Tuesday, April 8, 2003 8:03 AM