I see your point and I agree with you. Don't be mad. But it does seem that every bush (or the like of bush) that is in office then there is a war.

Looking at it honestly without emotional triggers on my part being allowed to play a part in considering things.

The USA has been burning the candle at both ends for many years now, the CIA has done what was asked of it over the years. But the thing is, operations and operatives did not always work under presidential decree. They did as ordered and they totally bought into the game as a team player, which they should have, they did what they did for their country as ordered. Even though many times it was from higher Higher that the orders rolled down and not the white house.

Mush of the time from what I have read and from the documentaries I have watched, a president would ask a director of the CIA if they could take care of a specific issue. Not the means in which they would do it, but could they make the problem go away, only to be told yes, of course. Then the director would go back and turn it over to those below him and it would roll down hill.

The bay of pigs for instance, history has been written that it was an action to free the cuban people from Castro's oppression. When in fact it was nothing more than an action taken to attempt putting Castro out so the farms and assets of one large corporation would be lost. It turned out to be a totally screwed up mess that President Kennedy ended up having to eat as his own mistake politically. Did he go along with it, yes from the beginning, was he ensured of it's success without question, yes again. Did he and the american people end up with egg on their faces, yep...

It was things like that in part and much worse, which in the end bought the USA a really nasty image on a global scale. Industry also had a part in it, Bhopal and other instances where a number of people ended up dead because of lousy safety measures to keep costs down, or not having the skilled labor in key positions to ensure safety and maintenance of critical safety equipment. Also missionaries, of all things have had some negative influence in some areas, where they went to do good for people and did, but forgot to not push their religion at the same time. Those two young girls in Afghanistan who faced death for instance. They were there in a Muslim nation to help the people, which was a very good thing. They were not there to push Christianity, which was a foolish thing, you do not go to someone else's nation which is of a different religion and push your religion or you chance ending up in the same exact position that they found themselves.

They were told, they were warned, they were directed not to do such, and yet they handed out ( even on request from the person they gave the books too ) Christian story books. SOrry to say, religious freedom was not part of the structure, they knew it, and they knew they were doing wrong... They are extremely lucky they are not dead because of those mistakes.

But their actions only fed into the Islamic/Muslim image of the USA attempting to destroy Islam all the same. Those people do not remember history, they live it, life is living history, or living is the act of continuing the history of the people.

I think that is one thing that we miss which is going to really cause some real problems in the future. To us history is the past, something to look at, maybe learn from but always the past and nothing more. To them history is a living breathing thing which all of them and those they interact with are a part of. I do not know why we can not grasp that concept really.

Consider this, who has ever heard that the Bible is a living book? I know from talking/chatting with friends in Israel that the Torah is considered a living thing and so is history, it has to be, because it is what proves that the Torah is alive.

So if the Bible is a living thing, constantly evolving, growing, expanding, how could past, present, future history not be?

I think this is one of the key tactical errors the administration has made also. People are returning to Iraq who left because they despised living under Saddam's thumb and his oppression, they return to fight for Iraq against the invaders, not for Saddam. I am not so sure it is patriotism as we know it which drives them, but more of a combination of religion, faith, belief, living history and ideology, wrapped up into one complete package which we've not completely grasped because it is so foreign to us that it never crossed our minds, let alone the administrations.

I also feel that one of the key things about the USA giving humanitarian support to others, only to find they harbor some real distaste for the USA while holding out their hands is this.

The USA never, ever does anything without knowing what they will get in return, and they do expect something in return, always...

Ive heard people say that those outside our nation hate us because of many different reason, but never really ever read or heard anyone approach the facts without the emotional, patriotic, stance and opinions based beyond the simplistic " their jealous, they hate our success, they despise our freedom, etc ".

What if it is so dynamic and each part of it is so simple we totally over look it, or put it out of mind because it seems so silly to us, or we find it so simplistically outrageous we do not consider it worth considering?

Example: They are learning to hate us because we refuse (for whatever reason) to take on the responsibility of being the one true single national super power left on this planet. ( we should never forget that a world combined has been shown to be the one true super power above all others, we really shouldn't forget that)

We pay farmers to not plant while people on this planet starve to death, we allow corporations to blast. dig, drill and destroy at an unknown rate (unknown to us at least) to pull gold, diamonds, silver, hard woods, etc, the natural resources of other nations, many what are considered 3rd world nations, leaving the people to starve while the local corporate rep's and government officials live fat and call that business, and in some instances some will even go as far as calling that nation building when in fact all it is in the end is raping a nation while some criminals who are paid off to allow it to happen oppress their people all in the name of the mighty dollar. We use one nation to fight wars with another only to turn around and turn on that nation we've just used when it suits us, or we find they have gone to far, but what influence did we play in creating the monster in the first place? We can not just sluff it off and not take responsibility for it.

I am not saying we must make amends, and do three hail marys, bend to the east and ask forgiveness of God or whom have you. But take responsibility in the act of not continuing to do it, if the process is broken in one instance it pretty much is probably broken in all others, besides who can we chance it to not be broken? Then again, it is something we have done a number of times, and doing the same exact thing and expecting different results is insaine...

There are many different reason why the world holds out one hand palm up and the other as a raised fist.
Our own teenagers do it and it confuses the hell out of us even with them, though it is on a different level but leaves us with the same confusion in the end and with the same exact question "Why"...

Who here is of the belief that only so many people can react to you in a negative manner while you state it's them before one has to ask, what might it be about me?

WHat I mean is, I've read one person in particular and a couple of different ones since I've lowered the genetic make up of this board state something along the lines of, People always react to me in this manner (my editing, but same meaning) and all I can think,though I do not state it is " If everyone reacts to you in the same manner, maybe you need to take a good look at yourself, or how you communicate with others? They can not all be jerks or heartless, or stupid, mean, ignorant, fill in the blank "...

Well, may be we need to drop everything emotional or otherwise and look at things separately and as a whole and admit our failings, we do not have to beg forgiveness, we do not even have to say a damn thing about it to others, which would be pointless anyway, but to act upon those things which we find as truly wrong on our part as people and a nation, and make positive change on our part, and you know what? Screw them if they can not accept that as enough because it is all we can or could do and to expect more would be ignorant and wrong of them, which is all on them, they would own those things...

America, yeah I love it, the people, the beauty, it's heart and soul...
But I know just how dark and evil things, people you love can be and I also know that people do not formulate hate and despise others without some basis of truth buried at the nexus of it all. Denial gets us no where positive or desirable, it has gotten us terrorist attacks and war, but I do not feel sliding to the negative end of the bar is a result worth accepting as something which others own completely, we own some of it, we just need to figure out what and either change it, drop it in the trash can or accept it and defend it on the plausible points if we can..

anyway, back to being quiet and ineffectually pointless

ps: Yeah I love America, and it does in fact piss me off to read online, in newspapers and hear on TV about how people hate the USA... totally...

large corporation would *not* be lost, and turned over to the people by Castro...

I'm seriously thinking about joining the Navy. Maybe I can help instead of complaining about the problem.

You know, thinking about it, it might sound very stupid and extreamly simplistic but...

If the governments of the world worked toegther and delt with each others on the basis of a desired relationship, one they want to work, a parternship such as a marriage for example, things might have a better chance of working...

Also this notion that the USA can make it in a world of people all on it's own is rather ridiculas because of the fact that at some point in time it would have to reach beyond it's borders only to find, what? No one wants anything to do with it and then what? Or maybe it would be seen as Russia after it fell apart, as a land ripe for cheap labor, open market, industrial expansion, religious expansion, a financial yoke?

This is not a US issue either, all governments do it, money makes the world go round, Russia selling Iraq bio/chem suits and such, Syria providing night vision equipment, France selling weapons, China silk worm cruise missles, it's a time for profit, and has been for the last 20 years in Iraq, including US corporate profit, all of our nations have had a hand in it, either openly or behind closed doors...

Finger pointing is pointless, want it fixed, work on fixing it at home first and turn the finger to your won capitols. Blaming past leaders is a pointless act also, when the present ones do nothing but perpetuate the process left from before them.

Does anyone know of the one government on this planet that is actually new, with fresh ideas and is not just a clone of those who came before them, that were not trimed and formed by the old order of politico's ment to carry on the torch even if it is wrapped in different wrapping paper and covered in brand new shiney lables, in each respective nation?

Not one...

None unless you go to the balk lands, and there is no telling what is going to come out of them as leardership. Though everyone is attempting to influance it, that is for sure.

Hey want something to fight a war about, something really evil? What about the forced prositiution, murder, rape and kidnannping of children starting at the age of 10 (sometimes younger) on up to adlut women, who are forced into the ever growing and expanding sex industry in those same new Balk Land nations. Not all of them, but there is a network that spans all of them, they take these young childrena dn women and forced them into online sex shows, toys ot animals and back again, they use them up, and in some instances kill them, or in others sell them to the highest bidder...

Who's fighting a war to stop this evil?

Where is the UN and it's forces?

Where is the moral USA ready to remove the scourges of the world? maybe in time? but I bet everyone would scream and cry about it, even when no ne else does a damn thing to stop it, it would be the mean old evil USA out doing it's War moungering thing again...

What ever happen to Somalia?

What about the opression in the South Americas?

What about the West Bank and Gaza?

How come at this day and age children starve when unknown tons upon tons of food stuffs are thrown away every year and are seen as an acceptable tax write off?

Why is AID's still a killer of millions when we can shoot missle out of the sky? Fire sound weapons that stop a person in their tracks doubling them up puking all over themselves in the name of using non-lethal weapons?

How come cancer stills kills and how come emclone which had the closest thing to a cure for cancer was shut down instead of funded?

Why is it that Stardock hasn't given everyone a full blown copy of GalCiv for our complete devotion



sorry about that one but it really was the point of this post ...

wouldn't matter, I'd only end up being like like John Candy in Canadian Bacon...

kona is it an option... my son went coast guard right after turning 17 and he likes it for the most part, though with Navy your pulling long stints deep water from what I understand.

Actually that is an option you might want to look at also, home defense is needing a lot of people and the coast guard need a whole bunch. Port security, boarding crews, interdiction, they've even got a few of the cutters the size of my sons ship over in the gulf pulling those duties with tankers and such. They have fast boats with dual 50's, heck on my sons ship they have the dual gattling gun anti missle defense systems on each side along with multipule 50's at different locations and a double helio pad on the back, automatic 7 inch cannon turrent. Not a Aircraft Carrier, of Missle cruiser granted, but not something I would snub my nose at if all I had was a wellcraft and 600 pounds of TnT either...

ok, back to never never land with me... the inane goofy bows out

I love the points you make. You should run for office. Start making the wrongs right for us all.

Maybe i'll look into the coast gaurd. sounds fun for someone from Oregon.

IT is, though I'm not to sure about the Alaskan Sea in storm season or riding out Hurricanes

Though, I m betting even that is a blast when you look back on it

kona: When you said "well who is gonna stop us?", let me tell you this: its arrogant comments like this that give Americans a bad name. You can be proud of yourself.

da_zman: I admire your faith. Sorry if I don't share it, if I even find it a bit naive. But as I said, time will tell. The oil in Iraq was not owned by the government before the 70's. The oil in Iraq was the property of the 7 sisters (American/British oil companies). That was before OPEC.
Will the after-Saddam still be member of OPEC?
Time will tell.

BTW: I heard that the interim government in Iraq may be run by an American general and last as much as two years. Whoa... not sure the Iraqis will like that. Sounds like occupation more than liberation to me. But what do I know.

Hey Paxx you wish you were American? (a question not a putdown) You could come down here and explain to my all my various military family your thoughts on why my comment was bad. Then get laughed at.

I didn't say it was incorrect. I'm sure nobody could stop the US if they wanted to invade the whole world. When the elephant tells the mouse: "I could crush you if I wanted to", it's arrogance.

>> @shu: Ask yourself *when* they blew it up. Was it the first few rounds of attacks? No, it was days after... right after Saddam had broadcast an inflamatory speech. The US had destroyed much of the Iraqi military communication, and Saddam Hussein was on television directing people how to fight. On top of that Iraqi television was broadcasting the same thing their ignorant press conferences have to say, that the US is out for the wholesale genocide of the Iraqi people, yadda, yadda, yadda. Since Iraqi television is the only outlet for news most Iraqis have, it is as much a weapon as a bomb. I remember listening to him and hearing 'zionist plot' or some such about a half dozen times and thinking to myself, why are they letting this worm speak publically anyway? The bomb made sense to me.

Dear bakerstreet, my point exactly. The Iraqis are learning this from the leader: using media and propoganda to influence minds and hearts, to win wars. Don't tell me that you are afraid of the itsy bitsy Iraqi media, are you? Please flick the remote, surf the channels and tell me if you can access any of those 'ignorant' (Arabic) channels... In most probability, their transmission is being blacked out in the USA, not much better than in Iraq right? Other than small clippings of some protests, the 'enlightened' channels are dishing out stuff fed to them by the 'coalition' (I still do not believe that it should be called that: its basically two countries with a dash of this and a bit of that) war machinery: embedded journalists, central command briefings and all... They too show only one side of the story, the one that doesn't embaress the US and the UK.


>>just to quote myself "this has nothing to do with oil"... so stop pretending it does... America won't control the oil... that's absurd, Iraqi oil companies will control Iraqi oil... you guys didn't buy those tin foil helmets to keep the aliens from reading your minds did you?? don't believe everything you see or hear... this war is about peace and democracy... some people need to die so that others may have a chance to live free.. it's unfortunate... but that's life, i would give my life to save another's, and so would many other americans... Americans don't give their lives for oil, that's absurd

da_zman20... How naive can you get... You say that America won't control the oil. You are right about that one. The British oil companies are gonna haggle for their share too. So its gonna be a 'coalition' control. It will be Iraqi companies who will drill for the oil, but it would be sold through Western companies only!!! So it amounts to a lot, and I do mean a lot of commission. And you are right, US citizens don't give their lives for oil alone... There are post war construction contracts to look after too. And (please correct me if I am wrong) oil IS the lifeline in today's world. The one who controls its flow, controls the world. The US gets most of its oil from its own wells, so it need not fear domination. But it controls the distribution of Saudi Arabian and Kuwaiti oil (I won't believe that these nations would dare selling their production to countries on the 'enemy' list of the US) and after the war, will control the Iraqi production too. And hence control the world (there was a story of oil being quoted in euros instead of dollars, weakening the dollar, before the war. I hate to think that this should've been another factor). And for THAT, US citizens would give their lives, because they equate their liberty with their 'lone superpower' status.


>>Speak the truth, brother! We are proud to be Americans. As for the rest of the world, sorry about your luck. No one can stop us!

Tch tch kona0197... thats the kinda attitude that has earned you so many enemies around the world. After 9/11, there were many people saying 'Why us? Why would somebody want to hurt the US?' While I condemn the attacks and sympathise with the victims, I, alongwith so many others around the world, feel that this is the result of US's own doings. One hand, they claim to be the conscience of the world, but on the other, they look the other way, help in fact, tyrants, tyrannies and terrorists. This double game had to blow up in their face some time or the other, though most of us 'outsiders' feel that the incident was cruel and barbaric and it shouldn't have happened.


>>And the US is being accused of hitting the same marketplace, again, a day later, killing another 50 people.

Not the same marketplace bakerstreet, a different one. Do you think that a city like Baghdad survives only off one marketplace?


>>China might TRY to stop us. The other reason no one screws with us is the fact we have the worlds largest and most powerful nukes. A few well placed ICBM's from a few trident subs and China would be gone. They call it a deterent for a reason.

I pity you kona0197, and I pity your thoughts.
Firstly, it greatly distresses a guy like me to see someone believe that their security lies in their ability to kill others. I hope that the 'US Imperialism' (it is imperialism, like the Roman Empire, Alexander's conquest, the British Empire: follows the same rule, destroy all opposition, cut down competitors; conquer what you can under one pretext or another and install puppet or dependent governments/rulers to face the ire and leave an ample military force behind to 'protect' the nation) lasts forever for your sake. Though I doubt it will, because history has shown otherwise.
Secondly, do you think that China is an impotent nation? And for that matter Russia, France, Germany, Japan. Forget them, I do not think that your government has the balls to take on North Korea... Did you know that Japan and Germany have the requisite technology to build Nuclear bombs within a month? Even a 'Third World' (I've always despised the tag) nation like India has nuclear bombs and has a successful space program. There are quite a number of Indian satellites in space launched from indigenously developed launch vehicles. How long before those launch vehicles are turned into ICBMs? China can very well respond to the ICBMs from a Trident sub, its just that they are shrewd and they are looking to defeat you by becoming an economic superpower and basically eating the US setup from within like termites. So good luck.

And I am sorry if I came across as a stupid American. I am just upset about how we are being treated in this war. I get enough junk from the protesters here at home.

@shu, about shutting down Iraki TV: I must say that's it's normal. Strategically, that's the first thing to do, shut down all communication systems within the country. Really can't blame the US/UK for doing it.
But Irakis probably now all gather at their neighbours who have a satellite dish to watch Al Jazira.

@shu
You disgust me. What I said before was direct kona0197 at others comments.

oops. drop the name.

this is the reason I wanted to stay out of this conversation. You guys take thing way to seriously. And you take things out of context. Usually when I say something it is directed at a certain person. But I am quickly learning to keep my mouth shut about the war because everyone here, even Jafo, bites off my head when I voice my opinion. Grow up you guys. Now I will sit back and watch you all snicker at each other.
And remember I do not exist. >

Testosteron removed, who want total global war, with the USA in the middle?
Who wants China dn the USA going head to head?
Who wants the draft put back in place?
Who wants years and years of conflict around the world for our children and their children?
Who want to bury their kids, or their neibhors kids, cousins kids, brothers or sisters kids?
Who wants War? All out kill everything that moves that isn't standing on our side of the firing line war, Island hopping, burn em to a cripy critter, pink mist, brain matter spattering, intesting spewing, hand to hand throat cutting War?

I know I don't and to even depict that I do by saying such things as "Who can stop us, etc" would seem to me to only lower myself to mindless banter...

For one thing "Who could stop us?" the world, did it twice in past history with germany... No I am not saying we are the same as either of those people(s) at those respective times in history. What I am saying is world perception drove governments to act in the end...

So that kind of statement is kinda moot, because the World could stop us, it might take many years, but in the end they could and would stop us, or there wouldn't be a planet worth calling Earth, Rock maybe, that which used to be able to sustain life maybe...

That is not seen as a good perception or attitude of the bar room drunk who bullys his way around telling everyone, I'm gonna kick his ass, and no one can stop me! If you think you can just get out of your chair.
How is it any different when applied to this issue? Can someone hold up, build upon and strengthen a position while detracting from it all at the same time? The point is not to beat someone over the head with your position it is to present it and have it seen as valid enough to either be taken up by those it is presented to or at least used as a means of consideration, a tool, which lends to a positive resulting opinion as best as can be expected.

Otherwise all that is being done is the same thing as the bar room bully... I'm bigger than you, I'm meaner than you' sit down or I beat you up. In this case your speaking of killing them, defeating them in war.

anyway...

screwed up as it is, my pov...
but there are better manners in which to epxress the emotions involved with such an issue without lowering to such a level...

boy am I out to win friends and influance people, have to dust off and read that book again, what color is your parachute also I guess....