hydrogen-powered car VS diesel
Wednesday, March 12, 2003 by joetheblow | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Someone tell me why million of government money is going into hydrogen-powered car when a diesel cars is very effiecent with fuel and pollution? I know hydrogen-powered car is better, but here and now couldn't we start to change over to diesel?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/08/automobiles/08AUTO.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/08/automobiles/08AUTO.html
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KarmaGirl
Reply #82 Monday, March 17, 2003 3:29 PM
Reply #82 Monday, March 17, 2003 3:29 PM
da_zman20, you are correct on how a hybrid works, but wrong on your assumptions on the engine portion of it.
As a little back info, since most people think that women don't know much about the mechanical workings of engines, my family drag races as a hobby. I have also rebuilt an engine myself, and am constantly learning about them. So, I have a pretty good grasp on it.
Now, there are a couple very basic things to keep in mind when talking about the fuel efficiency of cars:
1) manufacturers lie. They test under optimal conditions when reporting fuel efficiency. Read the real tests that car magazines report. (that, Kona, is where I get my information on how the hybrids *actually* compare to the diesel Jetta, which I know from experience gets 49 to 50 mpg consistently, and is a larger car than the hybrids, but that is something you need to read about yourself from other sources than the manufacturer).
2)There are basic concepts when propelling a mass. It takes the same amount of horsepower to propel 2,000 pounds at 60mph no matter what engine you are using. So, a one cylinder engine still needs to make as much horsepower to propel that 2,000 car as a 6 cylinder. So, it is actually under more load, and will run at a higher RPM and probably need a higher compression ratio to do the same job. Simple concept- 13 gallons of gas burned pretty much equals the same amount of emissions no matter how it is burned (depending on the catalyst technology used...but that is a different topic of conversation). So, if a hybrid in real life trials gets 50 mpg, and so does the diesel, they are putting out the same amount of emissions.
Diesels use a much less refined product than gas engines do (that is why it usually costs less than gas). The compression is different in the engine, as is the ignition system (glow-plugs versus spark plugs). People just still have the old memories of out of date diesel engines and assume that since the emissions smell different that they are worse. Catalytic converters have come a long way.
I don't drive a Jetta any more, though. I had a fight with the car, and it lost. It decided to gel its fuel (bad fuel system design) on Christmas night and stranded my whole family (including my daughter who was a baby at the time) 35 miles from home. (Dependability when transporting my child means more to me than fuel efficiency). I also would not drive a hybrid for the same reason. They are smaller than just about any other car out there, which doesn't feel safe when on the expressway with my child. They also do not have much interior room for families. The technology is a long way from being main stream.
As a little back info, since most people think that women don't know much about the mechanical workings of engines, my family drag races as a hobby. I have also rebuilt an engine myself, and am constantly learning about them. So, I have a pretty good grasp on it.
Now, there are a couple very basic things to keep in mind when talking about the fuel efficiency of cars:
1) manufacturers lie. They test under optimal conditions when reporting fuel efficiency. Read the real tests that car magazines report. (that, Kona, is where I get my information on how the hybrids *actually* compare to the diesel Jetta, which I know from experience gets 49 to 50 mpg consistently, and is a larger car than the hybrids, but that is something you need to read about yourself from other sources than the manufacturer).
2)There are basic concepts when propelling a mass. It takes the same amount of horsepower to propel 2,000 pounds at 60mph no matter what engine you are using. So, a one cylinder engine still needs to make as much horsepower to propel that 2,000 car as a 6 cylinder. So, it is actually under more load, and will run at a higher RPM and probably need a higher compression ratio to do the same job. Simple concept- 13 gallons of gas burned pretty much equals the same amount of emissions no matter how it is burned (depending on the catalyst technology used...but that is a different topic of conversation). So, if a hybrid in real life trials gets 50 mpg, and so does the diesel, they are putting out the same amount of emissions.
Diesels use a much less refined product than gas engines do (that is why it usually costs less than gas). The compression is different in the engine, as is the ignition system (glow-plugs versus spark plugs). People just still have the old memories of out of date diesel engines and assume that since the emissions smell different that they are worse. Catalytic converters have come a long way.
I don't drive a Jetta any more, though. I had a fight with the car, and it lost. It decided to gel its fuel (bad fuel system design) on Christmas night and stranded my whole family (including my daughter who was a baby at the time) 35 miles from home. (Dependability when transporting my child means more to me than fuel efficiency). I also would not drive a hybrid for the same reason. They are smaller than just about any other car out there, which doesn't feel safe when on the expressway with my child. They also do not have much interior room for families. The technology is a long way from being main stream.
Jafo
Reply #83 Monday, March 17, 2003 3:47 PM
Reply #83 Monday, March 17, 2003 3:47 PM
I did my first Engine swap when I was about 10....good old paddock-bombs...
One X-mas holiday, camping in the bush, I did a head-gasket change in the camping ground.....damn these Pommie cars....
One X-mas holiday, camping in the bush, I did a head-gasket change in the camping ground.....damn these Pommie cars....
KarmaGirl
Reply #84 Monday, March 17, 2003 4:27 PM
Reply #84 Monday, March 17, 2003 4:27 PM
Nothing better than rebuilding parts during holidays.
I spent a 4th of July cleaning a tranny with a tooth brush. It was my Dads way of punishing me for smokin' the clutch
I have an 86 Trans-am that has a carb on it. It is a V8 and gets as good of mileage as my 03 Monte Carlo. Cars are crazy beasts.
I spent a 4th of July cleaning a tranny with a tooth brush. It was my Dads way of punishing me for smokin' the clutch
I have an 86 Trans-am that has a carb on it. It is a V8 and gets as good of mileage as my 03 Monte Carlo. Cars are crazy beasts.
joetheblow
Reply #85 Monday, March 17, 2003 9:58 PM
Reply #85 Monday, March 17, 2003 9:58 PM
Karmagirl is a... girl? I thought you was a guy with a wierd name like everybody else.
BoXXi
Reply #88 Monday, March 17, 2003 11:19 PM
Reply #88 Monday, March 17, 2003 11:19 PM
KarmaGirl: I also used to own an '86 Trans-am. 5.0 litre V8 with carb. Mine was pure white, 5 speed stick shift and it gave great mileage too! Man, I loved that car! sigh....... 
joetheblow
Reply #89 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:22 AM
Reply #89 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 4:22 AM
A trans am had great mileage? I thought that was a musle car?
Ianyway I really liked the trans am. Even the latest version with the nostrals on the hood. I do think that it could have had a wider stance and longer whell base... but I love it anyway!!! I want to get one and make it mine so bad.
All i will need is some computers, red flashing lights for the front and I am done. No Toom in the back seat! That's where my computer goes.
Ianyway I really liked the trans am. Even the latest version with the nostrals on the hood. I do think that it could have had a wider stance and longer whell base... but I love it anyway!!! I want to get one and make it mine so bad.
All i will need is some computers, red flashing lights for the front and I am done. No Toom in the back seat! That's where my computer goes.
jebland
Reply #90 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:44 AM
Reply #90 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:44 AM
My ex was a stock car racer and I did all the parts researching, buying, pit crew management and helped with the maintenance of the car. There were nights when the engine blew on Friday and we stayed up all night rebuilding or replacing the engine to be able to run on Saturday nite. I have never built an engine by my self, but I helped with enough of them that I feel I could do it. Don't like that black grease under the fingernails, tho. 
The best car I ever had was a 1972 Corvette. It was metallic burnt orange, 350, 4 speed, T-top, Porter mufflers, and lake pipes. I still regret selling it.
I've done my share of drag racing, too.
When I was a kid, instead of playing with dolls like the other girls, I was building model cars. Never did like dolls
The best car I ever had was a 1972 Corvette. It was metallic burnt orange, 350, 4 speed, T-top, Porter mufflers, and lake pipes. I still regret selling it.
I've done my share of drag racing, too.
When I was a kid, instead of playing with dolls like the other girls, I was building model cars. Never did like dolls
KarmaGirl
Reply #91 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:00 AM
Reply #91 Tuesday, March 18, 2003 11:00 AM
joetheblow Yes, I am a girl.
KarmaGirl wants those negatives back from Jafo, too!
Yes, a Trans-Am is considered a muscle car, but they can't compete with the hp of todays engines. Also, even though people have issues with them, a well tuned carb will help you out with that. The gear ratio in the tranny is also a help (mine is an automatic). Mine is well kept and well tuned, and will get about 26 mpg, which is close to the 28 mpg that my Monte gets. (Not bad for that old of a car).
BoXXi, mine is dark blue metallic. It's been repainted, so it no longer has the screaming eagle on the hood, but I'm thinking about getting the decals and putting them back on. It also has T-tops, which is mighty nice in the summer. We have a lot of fun with that car. It is a summer only car, so we can keep it nice. (Store it in the pole barn in the winter). We also have many "parts" for the car since my hubby's race car is an 85 (it's a camaro)and we have a "parts car" camaro of the same year. Lots of car parts.
I'm just waiting for my daughter to want a Jr. dragster. She keeps looking at them when we're at the track. She wanted to get a snowmobile this winter, and kept getting on one (the little ones) at the store and saying "see, I'm big enough!". She refers to the Trans Am as her car. She's only 4 years old. She has the racing gene, that's for sure!
Yes, I am a girl. KarmaGirl wants those negatives back from Jafo, too!
Yes, a Trans-Am is considered a muscle car, but they can't compete with the hp of todays engines. Also, even though people have issues with them, a well tuned carb will help you out with that. The gear ratio in the tranny is also a help (mine is an automatic). Mine is well kept and well tuned, and will get about 26 mpg, which is close to the 28 mpg that my Monte gets. (Not bad for that old of a car).
BoXXi, mine is dark blue metallic. It's been repainted, so it no longer has the screaming eagle on the hood, but I'm thinking about getting the decals and putting them back on. It also has T-tops, which is mighty nice in the summer. We have a lot of fun with that car. It is a summer only car, so we can keep it nice. (Store it in the pole barn in the winter). We also have many "parts" for the car since my hubby's race car is an 85 (it's a camaro)and we have a "parts car" camaro of the same year. Lots of car parts.
I'm just waiting for my daughter to want a Jr. dragster. She keeps looking at them when we're at the track. She wanted to get a snowmobile this winter, and kept getting on one (the little ones) at the store and saying "see, I'm big enough!". She refers to the Trans Am as her car. She's only 4 years old. She has the racing gene, that's for sure!
KarmaGirl
Reply #94 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:02 PM
Reply #94 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:02 PM
bad........IP+....bad......
I want a supercharger for my 3.8 liter. You can get them on the bonneville, but not the Monte.....which...is..well...stupid....
I want a supercharger for my 3.8 liter. You can get them on the bonneville, but not the Monte.....which...is..well...stupid....
kona0197
Reply #95 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:16 PM
Reply #95 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:16 PM
yeah and my 965 HP 69 charger will blow the peice of cra* chevy away. I love dodge.
kona0197
Reply #96 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:18 PM
Reply #96 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:18 PM
Did I say Hemi? HMMM. Did not mean to offend anyone. Every chevy and ford I have had break apart.
IPlural
Reply #97 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:21 PM
Reply #97 Friday, March 21, 2003 7:21 PM
I get that at the parts counter all the time, I'll walk in and tell them I want part number such and such, they always ask whats it going in, and I tell them that doesn't matter, I gave you the part number of what I want, thank you...
ALywas ask you the make and model, year, OH that wasn't installed in that year or make, etc.. Well no kidding...
It is now
They are at a loss when you take them off the script, AutoMotive Engineering and United Speed World, or International Speed Shops USA seem to be best for such things around here. That or TRW out of HR Mag and PAW Industries, they have all kinds of kits at a fair price that you would think the Auto Corps would catch onto...
ALywas ask you the make and model, year, OH that wasn't installed in that year or make, etc.. Well no kidding...
It is now
They are at a loss when you take them off the script, AutoMotive Engineering and United Speed World, or International Speed Shops USA seem to be best for such things around here. That or TRW out of HR Mag and PAW Industries, they have all kinds of kits at a fair price that you would think the Auto Corps would catch onto...
joetheblow
Reply #98 Friday, March 21, 2003 8:53 PM
Reply #98 Friday, March 21, 2003 8:53 PM
I always liked the bonneville. the new one really makes me happy. I totally forgot about that car.
Lately I have been obsessed with the Volvo cars. One in piticular is the XC-90. Very save, Very nice, not to envionmentaly friendly but way better than other SUV's. 19/21 mpg
I love Sweden.
Lately I have been obsessed with the Volvo cars. One in piticular is the XC-90. Very save, Very nice, not to envionmentaly friendly but way better than other SUV's. 19/21 mpg
I love Sweden.
IPlural
Reply #99 Friday, March 21, 2003 11:00 PM
Reply #99 Friday, March 21, 2003 11:00 PM
Zoom zoom...
if it don't do 150 plus or can not pull a house...
anyway
my weakness, speed and power/tourqe
if it don't do 150 plus or can not pull a house...
anyway
my weakness, speed and power/tourqe
Aqua.
Reply #100 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:08 AM
Reply #100 Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:08 AM
My old '85 Toyota Celica averaged 54 Mpg way back when
It also could out accelerate and outrace most of the cars on the road when I felt like it too
It also could out accelerate and outrace most of the cars on the road when I felt like it too
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Reply #81 Monday, March 17, 2003 7:13 AM
I've been round the world, it's not flat. Why should I believe the other?