The Skin Patch Debate
Monday, February 24, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.
Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.
Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.
For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.
Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.
Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).
Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning
Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar
Patch 4 would have the slider control
Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.
On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.
In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.
So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?
Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.
What's your view?
Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.
Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.
For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.
Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.
Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).
Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning
Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar
Patch 4 would have the slider control
Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.
On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.
In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.
So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?
Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.
What's your view?
 |
|
Page 5 of 9 | |
|
|---|
moshi
Reply #82 Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:19 AM
Reply #82 Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:19 AM
speaking of permissions: Paxx, did you ever get permission from Misery for your Nijikon Fetchi for WB? it is plain to see that it derives from his wallpaper. you are not even giving him credit in the comments, just to Boxxi, while Misery was the one that started it all.
this is not meant to attack you, but "permissions" seem to have such a high value for you that do not even like others to give those permissions for skin patching in advance.
Frogboy: if you would like to hear my advice: start this program with personally asking some skinners. i am pretty sure some of them will like the idea (especially the ones that just don´t have the time to do it themselves). you are thinking about the success of your product, i am just thinking that some skins are just "classics" and don´t deserve to die out, even if i don´t use WindowBlinds, but some things just can´t be done in msstyles.
this is not meant to attack you, but "permissions" seem to have such a high value for you that do not even like others to give those permissions for skin patching in advance.
Frogboy: if you would like to hear my advice: start this program with personally asking some skinners. i am pretty sure some of them will like the idea (especially the ones that just don´t have the time to do it themselves). you are thinking about the success of your product, i am just thinking that some skins are just "classics" and don´t deserve to die out, even if i don´t use WindowBlinds, but some things just can´t be done in msstyles.
paxx
Reply #83 Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:59 AM
Reply #83 Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:59 AM
moshi: when I made it, I only knew BoXXi's DX theme. I wasn't aware that Misery made the wallpaper. When I realised it, my skin was already old and getting next to no downloads, so I just let it die.
Permission can be tricky when it's a chain like that. Sorry.
Permission can be tricky when it's a chain like that. Sorry.
Jafo
Reply #84 Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:17 AM
Reply #84 Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:17 AM
moshi....Wilhelm isn't the world's greatest correspondent...and dissappeared for quite a while back then, making 'connectivity' even more obscure/difficult.
He resurfaced, I found, through being chased up by Grimspoon, and subsequently I managed to catch up with him when doing my LS theme.
At that time paxx's WB skin was already long forgotten, but I did mention BoXXi's work.
He was fine with both.
Since then, lost him again, so cannot upload my Nijikon Fetchi WinAMP skin....[sigh].
Now and then the 'ball' can be dropped....but it's never intentional, at least with responsible skinners it's not 'intentional'...and I'd include paxx in that....
BTW....if you manage to catch up to Wilhelm/Misery/Deaddreamer....let him know I'm still 'anticipating' a reply...
He resurfaced, I found, through being chased up by Grimspoon, and subsequently I managed to catch up with him when doing my LS theme.
At that time paxx's WB skin was already long forgotten, but I did mention BoXXi's work.
He was fine with both.
Since then, lost him again, so cannot upload my Nijikon Fetchi WinAMP skin....[sigh].
Now and then the 'ball' can be dropped....but it's never intentional, at least with responsible skinners it's not 'intentional'...and I'd include paxx in that....
BTW....if you manage to catch up to Wilhelm/Misery/Deaddreamer....let him know I'm still 'anticipating' a reply...
IPlural
Reply #85 Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:46 AM
Reply #85 Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:46 AM
dang...
DeadDreamer site has always rocked and misery it phenom....
DeadDreamer site has always rocked and misery it phenom....
IPlural
Reply #86 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:01 AM
Reply #86 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:01 AM
Jafo, have you looked at version 10 and the *rip or inspire* page?
Kinda makes me get one of those hmmm whispers running around in the back ground.
It also builds upon the opt-in solution too without a doubt. As a matter of fact seeing what he puts into his art and then seeing people just take it like that as if they have some knspoken right is bothersome to say the least.
So I can see where people get touchy about the issues presented in this thread and the community at large even beyond WinC. But even so, it seems to prove there is a difference with opt-in, a complete difference between ripped or inspired.
If this does go through an indicator should be with the info for downloads which the artist can change as they like at any given moment. Say a couple of contrasting colors, if the dot is red, it is not one that is opted-in, if green it is, and it could also be a part of the description, a hidden field gets added when the artist does opt-in for the skin and they can put what restrictions or allowences they decide upon and then save. So the person who see's the green dot clicks or mouses over and a window slides out with the opt-in info?
dunno...
about the ones who have not been seen for some time, maybe a few could work on getting word out and word of mouth gets to them it might prompt them to get in contact?
rambling again, head doing 900mph with flat spots on the rear tires
gonna go lurky again
Kinda makes me get one of those hmmm whispers running around in the back ground.
It also builds upon the opt-in solution too without a doubt. As a matter of fact seeing what he puts into his art and then seeing people just take it like that as if they have some knspoken right is bothersome to say the least.
So I can see where people get touchy about the issues presented in this thread and the community at large even beyond WinC. But even so, it seems to prove there is a difference with opt-in, a complete difference between ripped or inspired.
If this does go through an indicator should be with the info for downloads which the artist can change as they like at any given moment. Say a couple of contrasting colors, if the dot is red, it is not one that is opted-in, if green it is, and it could also be a part of the description, a hidden field gets added when the artist does opt-in for the skin and they can put what restrictions or allowences they decide upon and then save. So the person who see's the green dot clicks or mouses over and a window slides out with the opt-in info?
dunno...
about the ones who have not been seen for some time, maybe a few could work on getting word out and word of mouth gets to them it might prompt them to get in contact?
rambling again, head doing 900mph with flat spots on the rear tires
gonna go lurky again
IPlural
Reply #87 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:02 AM
Reply #87 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:02 AM
I need a script that runs my spell and grammatic checker auto when I hit submit.
Azagoth
Reply #88 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:11 AM
Reply #88 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:11 AM
I think that updating skins is a great idea.
There are many many skins that I would personally love to use but they just don't work correctly in XP.
I agree with Frogboy
There are many many skins that I would personally love to use but they just don't work correctly in XP.
I agree with Frogboy
Koasati
Reply #90 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:25 AM
Reply #90 Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:25 AM
No one is saying that older skins don't need updating. But we don't allow people to update, or port these older skins without written permission from the author, and I can't see how this is any different.
I've been waiting for permission, for over a month, to use some graphics in a HvD theme. Should I just go ahead, simply because I haven't heard from the author? I think not.............
I've been waiting for permission, for over a month, to use some graphics in a HvD theme. Should I just go ahead, simply because I haven't heard from the author? I think not.............
adni18
Reply #92 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:33 PM
Reply #92 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:33 PM
Hi pjpowell
It is not polite to laugh out loud with other people statements, but it is normal and respectful to have your own opinion.
The statement wasn't talking about ports, you have missed the point of the statement, it is just you interpretation.
Let me remind you that the best ones "just don't have the time" or the have their own projects and ideas, so who is going to make those updates?
Try to see it detached and in general, forgetting the few exceptions that you know and try to remember that there is no rule without exceptions.
It is not polite to laugh out loud with other people statements, but it is normal and respectful to have your own opinion.
The statement wasn't talking about ports, you have missed the point of the statement, it is just you interpretation.
Let me remind you that the best ones "just don't have the time" or the have their own projects and ideas, so who is going to make those updates?
Try to see it detached and in general, forgetting the few exceptions that you know and try to remember that there is no rule without exceptions.
White_Moth
Reply #93 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:47 PM
Reply #93 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:47 PM
*poink* ouch!,
Darn, I just dropped my can "o" worms.
Darn, I just dropped my can "o" worms.
IPlural
Reply #94 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:49 PM
Reply #94 Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:49 PM
adni18 yep what you said!
I've been reading it and still see that the positives are greater than the negatives on more than a few levels, learning being one of those...
example: wallpapers, people submit them and they are taken for consideration, I do not know if a point system is in use or what have you. But having a wall refused, for me would not be the end of the world, it would prompt me to attempt again and again, building upon my skills set the whole time and picking techniques and points from others along the way so I could evolve into the best I could be for the given moment...
The same reasoning would be applied to myself and the system for patches and updates. It would be a learning venture, with the value added feature of those who are skilled greater than I to impart some of what they know even if not directly intended...
yep what you said!I've been reading it and still see that the positives are greater than the negatives on more than a few levels, learning being one of those...
example: wallpapers, people submit them and they are taken for consideration, I do not know if a point system is in use or what have you. But having a wall refused, for me would not be the end of the world, it would prompt me to attempt again and again, building upon my skills set the whole time and picking techniques and points from others along the way so I could evolve into the best I could be for the given moment...
The same reasoning would be applied to myself and the system for patches and updates. It would be a learning venture, with the value added feature of those who are skilled greater than I to impart some of what they know even if not directly intended...
paxx
Reply #95 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:20 PM
Reply #95 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:20 PM
We don't want to start moderating the patches to see if they do justice to the original. Wallpapers are the only thing we look at for quality. Sometimes the logons too, cause they are much like wallpapers.
I think Koasati said it right: permission is needed for any other port, so why would ths be different. If the original skinner refuses or isn't around, then bury the skin and move on.
I think Koasati said it right: permission is needed for any other port, so why would ths be different. If the original skinner refuses or isn't around, then bury the skin and move on.
IPlural
Reply #96 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
Reply #96 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM
I can and do fully agree with the overload with the WinC operations team doing it, but wouldn't the author want to *see* just what a person was going to post? Or would it be blind trust given with a nod of go ahead as you will?
How does the permission for doing a port work?
mmm, I have to look and see if this info is on the site or on the web...
my ignorance is showing profusely
How does the permission for doing a port work?
mmm, I have to look and see if this info is on the site or on the web...
my ignorance is showing profusely
adni18
Reply #97 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:30 PM
Reply #97 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:30 PM
Hi IPlural
Can you explain to me the reason why someone must work a lot for an update and in the end to find him self in the position that the author of the original skin will refuse the update for some reasons and not make his own skin with no moderation at all. In both cases it would be a learning venture.
Can you explain that to me?
Can you explain to me the reason why someone must work a lot for an update and in the end to find him self in the position that the author of the original skin will refuse the update for some reasons and not make his own skin with no moderation at all. In both cases it would be a learning venture.
Can you explain that to me?
paxx
Reply #98 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:52 PM
Reply #98 Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:52 PM
IPlural: How does the permission for doing a port work?
Quite simple:
I want to make a port of a wonderfull skin by Adni, so I send him an Email:
==================
To: Adni
From: Paxx
Subject: Permission request
Hi Adni,
I love you XYZ skin for Windowblinds and would love to make a matching Winamp skin.
Do you give me permission to make it and distribute it, with full credits given to you of course.
==================
To: Paxx
From: Adni
Subject RE: Permission request
Hi Paxx,
Sure, go ahead. You have my permission.
==================
Then I could go ahead and make it. When done, I can then email the skin (or a screenshot) back to Adni and ask what he thinks. He can then say "Great! Go ahead, upload it" or he could say "Hum... You know what, maybe you should work a bit more the EQ buttons, they don't quite match the skin", or whatever. Or he could say "Forget it. This skin is ugly. Forget I ever gave you permission in the first place."
When the skin is uploaded, a text file with the copy-pasted permission request and aproval emails is included in the ZIP.
Quite simple:
I want to make a port of a wonderfull skin by Adni, so I send him an Email:
==================
To: Adni
From: Paxx
Subject: Permission request
Hi Adni,
I love you XYZ skin for Windowblinds and would love to make a matching Winamp skin.
Do you give me permission to make it and distribute it, with full credits given to you of course.
==================
To: Paxx
From: Adni
Subject RE: Permission request
Hi Paxx,
Sure, go ahead. You have my permission.
==================
Then I could go ahead and make it. When done, I can then email the skin (or a screenshot) back to Adni and ask what he thinks. He can then say "Great! Go ahead, upload it" or he could say "Hum... You know what, maybe you should work a bit more the EQ buttons, they don't quite match the skin", or whatever. Or he could say "Forget it. This skin is ugly. Forget I ever gave you permission in the first place."
When the skin is uploaded, a text file with the copy-pasted permission request and aproval emails is included in the ZIP.
White_Moth
Reply #99 Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:04 PM
Reply #99 Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:04 PM
Adni would never say "Forget it. This skin is ugly. Forget I ever gave you permission in the first place."
But I would.
Nice work Paxx, that was pretty cool.
But I would.
Nice work Paxx, that was pretty cool.
Peff
Reply #100 Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:07 PM
Reply #100 Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:07 PM
paxx....how does that differ from what's being done currently?
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 5 of 9 | |
|
|---|
Reply #81 Wednesday, February 26, 2003 9:07 PM
OR, if a skin uses the same style to match a specific skin, then permission is required from the original author. No opt-in or out. Permission required, period, for all patches that uses the style that matches a specific skin.
Then someone mentionned leaching.
Then it made me think some more.
I DO NOT want to see an army or people running to update Adni or Treetog's skin just to see their download count increase.
I think that the way I proposed it kinda limits the leaching a bit, since if the patches are generic enough, they can match many skins from different authors. And if the skin matches a specific skin (where leaching could be a danger), then since permission from the original author is required, one could always put a stop to it if he sees people are just after getting themselves free downloads off his back.
But it's always delicate for an author to tell somebody no if his patch is too ugly.
I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I tend to think like Adni. There are many many skins to choose from, we don't need to bring back the old ones. Let them die, they are gone.