In our name
Tuesday, January 21, 2003 by Griffinme | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
http://inourname.insignificantthoughts.com/
As a reply to those experts in Hollywood's petition, "Not in our name."
As a reply to those experts in Hollywood's petition, "Not in our name."
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Bangkokboy
Reply #22 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:23 PM
Reply #22 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:23 PM
funny yes, but misinforming. Joe doesn't get off the hook for his crimes just because John and Jim sometimes commit the crime as well.
Iraq signed an agreement which stopped the gulf war, and US troops were withdrawn from Iraq on the condition that Iraq would hold to the agreement. Iraq has not kept the terms of disengagement, and reengagement and resumption of hostilities is the legal remedy available to the US under international treaty convention which has been recognized and followed for centuries if not always codified in minute detail.
Should the US hold Iraq's feet to the fire to honor the previously signed agreement? That is a valid question.
Whether the US has the legal right to hold Iraq to the ceasefire agreement is not a question at all.
Should the UN be consulted on this breach of treaty between two countries? Probably, if we want to give everyone in the world that warm fuzzy feeling that their opinion on the issue really matters.
Iraq signed an agreement which stopped the gulf war, and US troops were withdrawn from Iraq on the condition that Iraq would hold to the agreement. Iraq has not kept the terms of disengagement, and reengagement and resumption of hostilities is the legal remedy available to the US under international treaty convention which has been recognized and followed for centuries if not always codified in minute detail.
Should the US hold Iraq's feet to the fire to honor the previously signed agreement? That is a valid question.
Whether the US has the legal right to hold Iraq to the ceasefire agreement is not a question at all.
Should the UN be consulted on this breach of treaty between two countries? Probably, if we want to give everyone in the world that warm fuzzy feeling that their opinion on the issue really matters.
Jafo
Reply #23 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:27 PM
Reply #23 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:27 PM
BKB....so are you saying that 'everyone in the world's opinion on the matter DOESN'T matter, only the US opinion?
That's mighty nice of you....
Iraq signed an agreement which stopped the gulf war, and US troops were withdrawn from Iraq
No, Troops enforcing the UN position were withdrawn from Iraq.
Sure, the majority were US, but it is an extremely important distinction.
That's like saying 'Australian troops were withdrawn from Timor'.
Slanted and clouding the issue.
In both cases action was taken, and 'ceased' on direction of the UN [with UN approval].
The fact that the UN is often regarded as a paper tiger is unfortunate and will only be seen more so as such if and when member nations [that's what the US is, after all] take it upon themselves to act outside of its recommendations, no matter how 'noble' the cause.
It annoys me that some, perhaps many in the US dismiss external legitimate opinion and concern as if they, themselves are the only people on the planet affected by whatever form of military action is imminent.
Just to note....the Aussie SAS is on their way there now...and the frustrating thing is that the vast MAJORITY of people in Oz are not impressed.
The one saving grace is that the Anti-Viet-Vet sentiment for 'lost causes' won't affect the SAS....being 'hidden operatives'.....but it's sad when people are forced to fight and die for something they may just not agree with doing.
BTW...this is NOT 'US-bashing', it is balance restoration....
Again, I could type tomes on this argument/discussion, but I genuinely type two-fingered....
That's mighty nice of you....
Iraq signed an agreement which stopped the gulf war, and US troops were withdrawn from Iraq
No, Troops enforcing the UN position were withdrawn from Iraq.
Sure, the majority were US, but it is an extremely important distinction.
That's like saying 'Australian troops were withdrawn from Timor'.
Slanted and clouding the issue.
In both cases action was taken, and 'ceased' on direction of the UN [with UN approval].
The fact that the UN is often regarded as a paper tiger is unfortunate and will only be seen more so as such if and when member nations [that's what the US is, after all] take it upon themselves to act outside of its recommendations, no matter how 'noble' the cause.
It annoys me that some, perhaps many in the US dismiss external legitimate opinion and concern as if they, themselves are the only people on the planet affected by whatever form of military action is imminent.
Just to note....the Aussie SAS is on their way there now...and the frustrating thing is that the vast MAJORITY of people in Oz are not impressed.
The one saving grace is that the Anti-Viet-Vet sentiment for 'lost causes' won't affect the SAS....being 'hidden operatives'.....but it's sad when people are forced to fight and die for something they may just not agree with doing.
BTW...this is NOT 'US-bashing', it is balance restoration....
Again, I could type tomes on this argument/discussion, but I genuinely type two-fingered....
IPlural
Reply #24 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:31 PM
Reply #24 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:31 PM
Jafo 
What, you would like an equitable world to be based upon people being equals?
Oh you silly man you..
What, you would like an equitable world to be based upon people being equals?
Oh you silly man you..
Bangkokboy
Reply #25 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:25 PM
Reply #25 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:25 PM
Thanks for the input JAFO, and i do understand your points. anyone who lives in the world we have now knows that the various (alleged) national opinions do matter in varying degrees. the problem is often one of perspective:
when you see your country at the top of the terrorists' hit list, for whatever reason, and a dove from a "safe" country starts pontificating on the finer moralities of your wanting to strike back at the terror network and sponsors, it's extremely hard to listen with an objective ear. the comments we hear from many non-ams are often couched in such a manner that they go past stating what course of action we should take, and, presuming a total moral superiority, press on to telling us how we should feel and how we should think in the most nauseatingly pompous manner. My earlier post suffices in regard to people with that attitude.
The conservative says: "Your opinion is probably as good as mine, but lacking any concrete proof, I'll go with mine".
The liberal says: "My opinion is undoubtedly the moral high ground, and you're a jingoistic warmongering fascist bully for even daring to think differently than me".
When a person speaks from a country where mass murder is perpetrated by terrorists from the outside on the home turf, his opinion carries more weight.
"but it's sad when people are forced to fight and die for something they may just not agree with doing" that's a "sad" fact of every war, just and unjust, that's ever been fought! i'm a vietnam vet, so you're preaching to the choir on that one.
when you see your country at the top of the terrorists' hit list, for whatever reason, and a dove from a "safe" country starts pontificating on the finer moralities of your wanting to strike back at the terror network and sponsors, it's extremely hard to listen with an objective ear. the comments we hear from many non-ams are often couched in such a manner that they go past stating what course of action we should take, and, presuming a total moral superiority, press on to telling us how we should feel and how we should think in the most nauseatingly pompous manner. My earlier post suffices in regard to people with that attitude.
The conservative says: "Your opinion is probably as good as mine, but lacking any concrete proof, I'll go with mine".
The liberal says: "My opinion is undoubtedly the moral high ground, and you're a jingoistic warmongering fascist bully for even daring to think differently than me".
When a person speaks from a country where mass murder is perpetrated by terrorists from the outside on the home turf, his opinion carries more weight.
"but it's sad when people are forced to fight and die for something they may just not agree with doing" that's a "sad" fact of every war, just and unjust, that's ever been fought! i'm a vietnam vet, so you're preaching to the choir on that one.
Jafo
Reply #26 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:39 PM
Reply #26 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:39 PM
Nup....posted some comments then deleted 'em.
I decided it's not worth it.
I'm off to Philip Island to see Agostini and deal with a bunch of vintage bikes trying to hurt each other.
Leather, tyre smoke and alcohol....and a dose of sunburn....
See y'all in a few days...
Try not to break too much while I'm gone...
I decided it's not worth it.
I'm off to Philip Island to see Agostini and deal with a bunch of vintage bikes trying to hurt each other.
Leather, tyre smoke and alcohol....and a dose of sunburn....
See y'all in a few days...
Try not to break too much while I'm gone...
IPlural
Reply #28 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:16 PM
Reply #28 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:16 PM
War is and has been a given from the first time Iraq was placed in the so called Axis of Evil.
oh well
oh well
tinkergaloot
Reply #29 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:02 PM
Reply #29 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:02 PM
Frogboy-
you make some ridiculously sweeping generalisations about those involved in the anti-war movement.
You want more than "one-line quips"? You want to read the truths that the American Government don't really want you to know? then try this http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
you make some ridiculously sweeping generalisations about those involved in the anti-war movement.
You want more than "one-line quips"? You want to read the truths that the American Government don't really want you to know? then try this http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
Frogboy
Reply #30 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:36 PM
Reply #30 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:36 PM
People as equals but not necessarily nation states. I don't hold that the USA or Australia are equal to say Nigeria or North Korea.
Frogboy
Reply #31 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:39 PM
Reply #31 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:39 PM
Um, Tinkergaloot, WhatReallyHappened.com is one of the most infamous anti-sematic sites on the Internet. It's one of those places that tried to claim that "jews" were told to stay at home on 9/11.
Frankly, I find it rather spooky that you actually believe what's on that site.
Frankly, I find it rather spooky that you actually believe what's on that site.
tinkergaloot
Reply #32 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:23 PM
Reply #32 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:23 PM
Typical head-in-the-sand Republican response. What is spooky is that you, like millions of other Americans, actually believe the BS that your Government shoves down your throats via the US media.
And in whose opinion, other than yours,is whatreallyhappened.com anti-semitic?
If you are implying that I'm anti-semitic, then be very careful...
And in whose opinion, other than yours,is whatreallyhappened.com anti-semitic?
If you are implying that I'm anti-semitic, then be very careful...
Frogboy
Reply #33 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:30 PM
Reply #33 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:30 PM
I have no idea whether you're anti-semitic or not. But I do know that site is.
You are mistaken if you believe I get my info exclusively from the US Media. There are lots of sources for data.
But yea, I am willing to say that a site that thinks "World Jewry" are the ones behind a vast "zionist" conspiracy and are secretly manipulating the world. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Claims that the Iraqi's can jame JDAMs are pretty ridiculous as I suspect we'll discover shortly.
For every person who buys into the crap of a "whatereallyhappened.com" there's some guy who thinks UN black helicopters are after them. Perhaps you believe in that too. Perhaps "the jews" are in those UN black helicopters? Do you believe that?
You're ready to dismiss CNN (or the BBC no doubt) but perfectly okay to believe that the "jewish lobby" is secretly in control of the US congress and that they were the ones behind the 9/11 attacks. Sheesh.
You are mistaken if you believe I get my info exclusively from the US Media. There are lots of sources for data.
But yea, I am willing to say that a site that thinks "World Jewry" are the ones behind a vast "zionist" conspiracy and are secretly manipulating the world. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Claims that the Iraqi's can jame JDAMs are pretty ridiculous as I suspect we'll discover shortly.
For every person who buys into the crap of a "whatereallyhappened.com" there's some guy who thinks UN black helicopters are after them. Perhaps you believe in that too. Perhaps "the jews" are in those UN black helicopters? Do you believe that?
You're ready to dismiss CNN (or the BBC no doubt) but perfectly okay to believe that the "jewish lobby" is secretly in control of the US congress and that they were the ones behind the 9/11 attacks. Sheesh.
IPlural
Reply #34 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:40 PM
Reply #34 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:40 PM
No DOUBT!
Frogboy, just so you know, I did post that link back a way because of only one reason, there was some funny stuff on it.
There is just as many about Clinton which are just as funny.
I am not right nor left but independant and feel both sides have just as many positive points as negative points about them. One of the most damning for all concerned in DC is they are all Politicians who want to stay working politicians and in order to do so they freely say what people want to hear and do exactly what they ( the politico's ) want to do anyways.
But I am not THAT far gone
Frogboy, just so you know, I did post that link back a way because of only one reason, there was some funny stuff on it.
There is just as many about Clinton which are just as funny.
I am not right nor left but independant and feel both sides have just as many positive points as negative points about them. One of the most damning for all concerned in DC is they are all Politicians who want to stay working politicians and in order to do so they freely say what people want to hear and do exactly what they ( the politico's ) want to do anyways.
But I am not THAT far gone
tinkergaloot
Reply #35 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:40 PM
Reply #35 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:40 PM
What I believe is that the reasons for a US-led attack on Iraq are three-fold:
Control of Iraqi oil, protection of the Israeli state, and destabilising of the Arab community through political and military involvement in the region.
I have many friends in Israel, all of whom are anti-war, and anti-Sharon. They also visit whatreallyhappened on a regular basis. Does this make them anti-semitic?
No less an eminent and respected person than Nelson Mandela also described Sharon as one of the two main threats to world peace (George Dubya being the other.) Does his criticism of Sharon make him anti-semitic as well?
I base my beliefs on facts, not innuendo, hyperbole and lies. What do you base your beliefs on?
Control of Iraqi oil, protection of the Israeli state, and destabilising of the Arab community through political and military involvement in the region.
I have many friends in Israel, all of whom are anti-war, and anti-Sharon. They also visit whatreallyhappened on a regular basis. Does this make them anti-semitic?
No less an eminent and respected person than Nelson Mandela also described Sharon as one of the two main threats to world peace (George Dubya being the other.) Does his criticism of Sharon make him anti-semitic as well?
I base my beliefs on facts, not innuendo, hyperbole and lies. What do you base your beliefs on?
IPlural
Reply #36 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:47 PM
Reply #36 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:47 PM
I do think that the lobby does hold a lot of pull in our government, and I am not speaking of anyone specific lobby either. ALl of them hold to much influence and should be removed from the process across the board.
I hope at some point in time party lines are a thing of the past and a president and administration are put into office because of merit and not because they happen to have the most money, or make the better eventual broken promises.
Accountability is a serious issue for this nation on almost all levels of government, or lack there of.
I hope at some point in time party lines are a thing of the past and a president and administration are put into office because of merit and not because they happen to have the most money, or make the better eventual broken promises.
Accountability is a serious issue for this nation on almost all levels of government, or lack there of.
Jafo
Reply #37 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:52 PM
Reply #37 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:52 PM
tinker....I may not entirely agree with Frogboy's stance or point of view but being a democratic type, entirely endorse his right to that view.
Legitimate opinion cannot be ignored, irrespective of its origin or perceived bias.
I don't poo-poo it as blind propaganda.
Most, if not all 'movements' have hidden agendas, including the 'anti war' one.
Just remember to believe nothing of what you read, and only half of what you see.
I am pro-US.....I am anti 'pre-emptive strike'.
If and when the US gets all 'pre-emptive', I'll have to start rooting for the underdog, that is all....
See you in 4 days....I have some bikes to keep 'upright'...
Legitimate opinion cannot be ignored, irrespective of its origin or perceived bias.
I don't poo-poo it as blind propaganda.
Most, if not all 'movements' have hidden agendas, including the 'anti war' one.
Just remember to believe nothing of what you read, and only half of what you see.
I am pro-US.....I am anti 'pre-emptive strike'.
If and when the US gets all 'pre-emptive', I'll have to start rooting for the underdog, that is all....
See you in 4 days....I have some bikes to keep 'upright'...
tinkergaloot
Reply #39 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:07 PM
Reply #39 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:07 PM
Jafo-
I don't deny that Frogboy is entirely within his rights to have an opinion, and to express it freely.
Debate is healthy, and the expression of differing opinions is a manifestation of what hundreds of thousands of our forebears have fought and died for.
Unfortunately, I don't see a pre-emptive strike on Iraq as being based upon the same foundation of defending our freedom and way of life...
Enjoy Phillip Island, say hi to the penguins.
I'm off now to watch Australia destroy England (again) in the cricket...a for more sensible form of "combat".
I don't deny that Frogboy is entirely within his rights to have an opinion, and to express it freely.
Debate is healthy, and the expression of differing opinions is a manifestation of what hundreds of thousands of our forebears have fought and died for.
Unfortunately, I don't see a pre-emptive strike on Iraq as being based upon the same foundation of defending our freedom and way of life...
Enjoy Phillip Island, say hi to the penguins.
I'm off now to watch Australia destroy England (again) in the cricket...a for more sensible form of "combat".
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Reply #21 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:16 PM