Re Iraq Poll
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I voted for option 3. However, Saddam should have been sorted out during the gulf war. We had the chance to chop his ass into tiny pieces right then. Problem sorted. Because that route wasn't taken then we have the situation now whereby either action or inaction is unacceptable. Plus the additional suffering caused to the people of Iraq by Saddam over the intervening period since the gulf war and the almost immediate butchering of the Kurds. We really left them with their flies open.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
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Ian MacGregor
Reply #103 Friday, October 11, 2002 1:58 PM
Reply #103 Friday, October 11, 2002 1:58 PM
Dreaming? Oh...right...on to the world of reality...
Ian MacGregor
Reply #104 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:11 PM
Reply #104 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:11 PM
Can solar power be used as a catalyst to start the process of breaking the hydrogen and oxygen out of water? I remember touching the "wrong" part of a solar system, once, and being knocked to the ground, so I know that a solar powered system can pack quite a "punch".
bakerstreet
Reply #105 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:18 PM
Reply #105 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:18 PM
I just tested a system of methane production... excuse me. 
paxx
Reply #106 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:47 PM
Reply #106 Friday, October 11, 2002 2:47 PM
Don't forget kenetic energy. Movement also generates energy. I read about electric car that had a quite interesting duration since some of the energy used to move the car was being recuperated through a dynamo catching the kinetic energy used by the car in movement. Of course, being stuck in traffic is no good with that kind of car. 
Before somebody objects, I know that perpetual movement is not possible. I didn't say that the car could go on forever, but that some (I think 40-50%) of the energy spent was being used back.
Before somebody objects, I know that perpetual movement is not possible. I didn't say that the car could go on forever, but that some (I think 40-50%) of the energy spent was being used back.
datarat
Reply #107 Friday, October 11, 2002 3:21 PM
Reply #107 Friday, October 11, 2002 3:21 PM
Actually Bryan, electrolyzing water is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as the cost of containing the component that result.
Believe it or not, gasoline is a fairly stable way to keep the chemical energy stored, compared to hydrogen and it's low ignition point and extremely low liquifaction temperature. Overall, it's more expensive and MUCH more dangerous.
Secondly, we use oil for a lot more than just gasoline. The plastic that your keyboard is made from is an oil derivative.
Finally, none of this has anything to do with a power mad dictator who doesn't even trust his own army, uses nerve gas on political and religious dissidents, and who has hired assassins to kill the president of our country. Saddam Hussein has lots of money and wants more power, regardless of who dies eventually.
We can wait and accept the millions of deaths, as Joe proposes. I don't think that's acceptable. It's like letting a murderer run the streets because he hasn't hurt YOU.
Yet.
Believe it or not, gasoline is a fairly stable way to keep the chemical energy stored, compared to hydrogen and it's low ignition point and extremely low liquifaction temperature. Overall, it's more expensive and MUCH more dangerous.
Secondly, we use oil for a lot more than just gasoline. The plastic that your keyboard is made from is an oil derivative.
Finally, none of this has anything to do with a power mad dictator who doesn't even trust his own army, uses nerve gas on political and religious dissidents, and who has hired assassins to kill the president of our country. Saddam Hussein has lots of money and wants more power, regardless of who dies eventually.
We can wait and accept the millions of deaths, as Joe proposes. I don't think that's acceptable. It's like letting a murderer run the streets because he hasn't hurt YOU.
Yet.
craeonics
Reply #108 Friday, October 11, 2002 8:27 PM
Reply #108 Friday, October 11, 2002 8:27 PM
Oi? He hired assassins to kill the president of your country? When did that happen?
Anyhow, a thought just crossed my mind (imagine that). Say the US attacks Iraq and rolls up its government. Then what will happen?
Anyhow, a thought just crossed my mind (imagine that). Say the US attacks Iraq and rolls up its government. Then what will happen?
joetheblow
Reply #109 Friday, October 11, 2002 9:01 PM
Reply #109 Friday, October 11, 2002 9:01 PM
I say all people with desktops should put up a screenshot of there desktop on there profiles... so what its boring!!! It doesn't have to be a piece of art sheesh...
If we all had screenshots there would be no oil to fight over and piece will have a chance.
I heard of that water thoery before... I wondered what happened to that.
I'm going to bed.... 8 days left.... get ready...
If we all had screenshots there would be no oil to fight over and piece will have a chance.
I heard of that water thoery before... I wondered what happened to that.
I'm going to bed.... 8 days left.... get ready...
Grog
Reply #110 Friday, October 11, 2002 9:05 PM
Reply #110 Friday, October 11, 2002 9:05 PM
Crae,
A couple of articles for your enjoyment http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/09/time.saddam.weapons/index.html and http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/06/time.saddam/index.html . From what I have been hearing is that if they remove Sadam they will set up a interum Military Goverment untill free elections can be held, on the lines of what happened in Japan after WWII. I hope that he decides to leave on his own but I don't see it happening and I would worry about who his heirapparent would be.
A couple of articles for your enjoyment http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/09/time.saddam.weapons/index.html and http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/06/time.saddam/index.html . From what I have been hearing is that if they remove Sadam they will set up a interum Military Goverment untill free elections can be held, on the lines of what happened in Japan after WWII. I hope that he decides to leave on his own but I don't see it happening and I would worry about who his heirapparent would be.
Lecrayon
Reply #111 Saturday, October 12, 2002 6:52 AM
Reply #111 Saturday, October 12, 2002 6:52 AM
Mercedes has built an engine that can run on hydrogen. Actually they have built a car that equals the performance of gasoline driven cars. The only thing that lacks is the infrastructure.
bakerstreet
Reply #112 Saturday, October 12, 2002 2:07 PM
Reply #112 Saturday, October 12, 2002 2:07 PM
lol... let's poll a thousand investors and see how many would like to invest in hydrogen filling stations...
i'm shocked shocked that we can't get this off the ground, lol.
Many of the laws for storing and transporting volitile gasses would have to be changed in the US as well, state and local, not federal, laws. Everyone would be running around with refillable hydrogen tanks, and in twenty years those same cars would be on the road with the same tanks; scary, huh? Look what a one-in-a-million rear-end impact did for the Pinto.
The Petrolium industry is what is keeping other foms of transportation from being adopted, not the car industry. The lobbying petrolium industry is up the bee-hinds of every level of government in every gass-guzzling nation in the world. That's a big reason why you don't have more public transportation in average american towns as well, I think. The laws will not be made to allow such things, or make them affordable, anyway, as long as they have control.
Bottom line, if I can't BUY hydrogen, then I'm not gonna buy a hydrogen car, and the automakers aren't gonna make them if I don't buy them. At this point it is hybrids or nothing, IMHO.
i'm shocked shocked that we can't get this off the ground, lol.
Many of the laws for storing and transporting volitile gasses would have to be changed in the US as well, state and local, not federal, laws. Everyone would be running around with refillable hydrogen tanks, and in twenty years those same cars would be on the road with the same tanks; scary, huh? Look what a one-in-a-million rear-end impact did for the Pinto.
The Petrolium industry is what is keeping other foms of transportation from being adopted, not the car industry. The lobbying petrolium industry is up the bee-hinds of every level of government in every gass-guzzling nation in the world. That's a big reason why you don't have more public transportation in average american towns as well, I think. The laws will not be made to allow such things, or make them affordable, anyway, as long as they have control.
Bottom line, if I can't BUY hydrogen, then I'm not gonna buy a hydrogen car, and the automakers aren't gonna make them if I don't buy them. At this point it is hybrids or nothing, IMHO.
paxx
Reply #113 Saturday, October 12, 2002 2:21 PM
Reply #113 Saturday, October 12, 2002 2:21 PM
The solution resides in electricity. Electric cars. That's what the future is, and we're almost there.
Don't forget that we need petrolium for a lot of much more essential things than waisting it as a combustion source. Look around you right now, and count the things that are plastic, nylon... The day oil runs out, finding another energy source will be the least of our problems.
There are tons of alternatives for oil for cars, but there is no alternative to oil to make plastic.
Don't forget that we need petrolium for a lot of much more essential things than waisting it as a combustion source. Look around you right now, and count the things that are plastic, nylon... The day oil runs out, finding another energy source will be the least of our problems.
There are tons of alternatives for oil for cars, but there is no alternative to oil to make plastic.
bakerstreet
Reply #114 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:30 PM
Reply #114 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:30 PM
The main problem with electric is storage. They can't be recharged quickly, and the range of electric cars is far, far too short for the average American. I know people who commute 60 miles, one way, to work. Others go further. You've gone a long way toward tapping your car out with the commute to work, and it takes a rather long time to recharge. Forget long vacations. Honda's electric car has a range of like 150 miles, if I am not mistaken, and takes like 4 hours to charge (forgive me if I am off...)
I would say that in urban/suburban setting (where the worst pollution and waste is anyway) an electric car would be perfect. 10 miles to work and back, 5 miles to the store and back, charging the rest of the time. For most everyone else, though, there'll need to be better batteries.
IF we had better public transportation in the US, so that the average person could drive their car ~20 miles to some sort of public transportation for the rest of their trip, then it would be fine with the cars we have now. Sadly, we don't.
I would say that in urban/suburban setting (where the worst pollution and waste is anyway) an electric car would be perfect. 10 miles to work and back, 5 miles to the store and back, charging the rest of the time. For most everyone else, though, there'll need to be better batteries.
IF we had better public transportation in the US, so that the average person could drive their car ~20 miles to some sort of public transportation for the rest of their trip, then it would be fine with the cars we have now. Sadly, we don't.
craeonics
Reply #115 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:40 PM
Reply #115 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:40 PM
The world's going to be a fun place in fifty years then, when we run out of fuel. Anyhow, there are quite a lot of "Shell is investing in alternative enrgy sources" on tv these days over here, so perhaps they will see the light.
grog, they'll need to get rid of the entire line of command. Not just Saddam. One man alone can never rule a country and nothing will change if they remove him and leave all the henchmen alone.
grog, they'll need to get rid of the entire line of command. Not just Saddam. One man alone can never rule a country and nothing will change if they remove him and leave all the henchmen alone.
craeonics
Reply #116 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:44 PM
Reply #116 Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:44 PM
Baker, I doubt they would. We have these things called 'transferiums' here. The idea is that drivers park their car their, on the outskirts of town and them take the bus/tram/subway (which is quite well-organised). Turns out no-one does that.
bakerstreet
Reply #117 Saturday, October 12, 2002 7:44 PM
Reply #117 Saturday, October 12, 2002 7:44 PM
Crea: "Shell is investing in alternative enrgy sources" translates to "Shell is getting government cash for farting around with gasahol so that farmers can get subsidies for growing corn that no one is gonna eat."
At most Shell *might* be messing with natural gas powered cars, which in the end will burn a bit cleaner, but you're still dealing with non-renewable resources. I'd be really shocked if shell was investing any of its own money in hydrogen or electric research; government money, maybe.
At most Shell *might* be messing with natural gas powered cars, which in the end will burn a bit cleaner, but you're still dealing with non-renewable resources. I'd be really shocked if shell was investing any of its own money in hydrogen or electric research; government money, maybe.
joetheblow
Reply #118 Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:58 PM
Reply #118 Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:58 PM
I think the bottom line is that there isn't a profit in changing it to a different fuel sorce. Everytime I get into a SUV I think " how is it that there isn't enough room?" Of course there is room!!! I look at a car and think why can't there be a recharger on the brakes of the car to make batteries last longer or omething. the technology is out there. it is also expencive, why is it expencive? That is the real question, why is the solar panels, eleltic vehical/batteries or hydrogen tanks expencive? 4Times Square in Manhattan is soppossed to be a "Green biulding" with soal panel windows, better HVAC design, and other features that added to 5% of the biulding cost. They also focused on biulding sickness (fumes from man made materials like carpet and furniture) and water recyleing. As the biulding stands 1 to 2 percent of the power comes from the solar panels. Not as much as th 4 percent they could have gotten but they couldn't afford more panels that the design required (or something like that)
I look at all the wide open spaces that could have solar farms or wind mills and wonder why? I look at the coal reserves and wonder if they are trying to find a way to use it more effiencly or clean it up. Then to find out the tool to clean it cost millions of dollars.
I guess we have to spend billions on finding and making sure the oil supply stays current instead of billions on something that will benifit the enviornment and consiquentailly us because we live IN that enviornment.
I look at all the wide open spaces that could have solar farms or wind mills and wonder why? I look at the coal reserves and wonder if they are trying to find a way to use it more effiencly or clean it up. Then to find out the tool to clean it cost millions of dollars.
I guess we have to spend billions on finding and making sure the oil supply stays current instead of billions on something that will benifit the enviornment and consiquentailly us because we live IN that enviornment.
joetheblow
Reply #119 Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:10 PM
Reply #119 Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:10 PM
it is also a change of life style. if it takes 4 hours for a car to recharge then, well don't use it for four hours!! do you really need to go somewhere every 4 hours? most people have 2 cars (or 1.5 ) so how about on car for trips and another for work? How about a hybrid car? How about a SUV with more than enough room for a charger and have it be a hybrid? Oh no you can no longer fit 8 now you can only fit 7
there is a way... I remember stating about how other contries have hybrid cars and devoloping then but American car companies are still trying to come up with a production car. Is it the unions??? Is it because is cost to much to devolop???
Maybe because of red tape, that the hope of these things being developed might be in other contries and maybe more so in "3rd world contries" (what is a 3rd world contry? and where are the 2nd world contries?) for these things. They will put it in production and peole will buy it. It might get those countries into the world economy (just to be use and abuse later on) and maybe the poeple of those countries can have something to look foward to other than hunger.
) so how about on car for trips and another for work? How about a hybrid car? How about a SUV with more than enough room for a charger and have it be a hybrid? Oh no you can no longer fit 8 now you can only fit 7 there is a way... I remember stating about how other contries have hybrid cars and devoloping then but American car companies are still trying to come up with a production car. Is it the unions??? Is it because is cost to much to devolop???
Maybe because of red tape, that the hope of these things being developed might be in other contries and maybe more so in "3rd world contries" (what is a 3rd world contry? and where are the 2nd world contries?) for these things. They will put it in production and peole will buy it. It might get those countries into the world economy (just to be use and abuse later on) and maybe the poeple of those countries can have something to look foward to other than hunger.
joetheblow
Reply #120 Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:16 PM
Reply #120 Saturday, October 12, 2002 9:16 PM
and I always thought a great idea was to put trains next to the highway and let all the people who are taking there cars to work look at those who are speeding by at 67 miles an hour. or have them look at the HOV lanes that have 2 or more passangers speed by as they sit in traffic.
a little phycology would be nice. Park and Go works in Long Island (part of NYC). Parking can be a hassle at times but if that could be made easier at some of those stations they would have allot more costomers.
Design for sphycology and maybe they will use mass transit. hmmmmm...
How do you spell schycology????
a little phycology would be nice. Park and Go works in Long Island (part of NYC). Parking can be a hassle at times but if that could be made easier at some of those stations they would have allot more costomers.
Design for sphycology and maybe they will use mass transit. hmmmmm...
How do you spell schycology????
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Reply #101 Friday, October 11, 2002 10:38 AM
http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/09/Obscureenergysources.shtml