Re Iraq Poll
Tuesday, October 8, 2002 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I voted for option 3. However, Saddam should have been sorted out during the gulf war. We had the chance to chop his ass into tiny pieces right then. Problem sorted. Because that route wasn't taken then we have the situation now whereby either action or inaction is unacceptable. Plus the additional suffering caused to the people of Iraq by Saddam over the intervening period since the gulf war and the almost immediate butchering of the Kurds. We really left them with their flies open.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
All too late and all too frantic. This is not going to end well for anyone.
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bakerstreet
Reply #42 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 1:38 PM
Reply #42 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 1:38 PM
wombat_1:
I wasn't trying to say no other countries had a part in Afghainstan, just the opposite. I was addressing LeCrayon's implication that the US had bombed them to an oblivion and ran off to bomb Iraq. That was a UN action, so I think efforts for rebuilding Afghanistan should be laid at the feet of the UN, not thrown in the face of the US who is still there. Most of the ruins we will help rebuild in Afghanistan were made by the Soviet Union.
Noble try for France there, btw, but there is a good reason that they, and the rest of Europe have lived with terrorism for so long. Europe spent hundreds of years in all these countries pounding the occupants into submission, and now, the fruits of their labor are evident. Lecrayon sez about Europe "we are small" and yet there was enough might at one time to section off most of the world. Lucky for Europe that the newest of the downtrodden are just as apt to forget their own history and jump on the 'Great Satan' bandwagon.
I wasn't trying to say no other countries had a part in Afghainstan, just the opposite. I was addressing LeCrayon's implication that the US had bombed them to an oblivion and ran off to bomb Iraq. That was a UN action, so I think efforts for rebuilding Afghanistan should be laid at the feet of the UN, not thrown in the face of the US who is still there. Most of the ruins we will help rebuild in Afghanistan were made by the Soviet Union.
Noble try for France there, btw, but there is a good reason that they, and the rest of Europe have lived with terrorism for so long. Europe spent hundreds of years in all these countries pounding the occupants into submission, and now, the fruits of their labor are evident. Lecrayon sez about Europe "we are small" and yet there was enough might at one time to section off most of the world. Lucky for Europe that the newest of the downtrodden are just as apt to forget their own history and jump on the 'Great Satan' bandwagon.
datarat
Reply #43 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:00 PM
Reply #43 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:00 PM
Wombat:
The other countries that Griffinme is referring to are Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan, an Turkey.
The US has been repeatedly accused of causing the deaths of 500,000 children in Iraq over the last decade, usually by Iraq and other international groups.
You've taken my response to you question about other terrorist situations and twisted them. The comment I made about Bosnia was primarily to illustrate the difference between the UK, which did not ask for our assistance, and Bosnia, which did. I did not mean to begin a discussion on the relative effectiveness of the two situations. I'm not sure precisely which funding the IRA got from the US, but it's outside of the scope of this conversation and I'd be happy if you'd enlighten me elsewhere.
One last thing: your analogy is wrong regarding a man who MIGHT have a knife. Try this one, along the same line:
A man breaks into his neighbors house, steals everything he can get his hands on, kills half the family and forces the rest to run screaming from the house.
The Neighbors get together, and the biggest guy and a couple of his friends go in and beat the crap out of this guy, take away his knife, and march him back to his house and put him under house arrest.
Every once in a while somebody goes in to make sure he hasn't made a gun or a knife, but he won't let the guards check his bathroom, kitchen, or a spare room that he says is his entertainment room.
Meanwhile, he continues to torture his OWN family, and pets.
Finally, the guards are told they are not allowed to come back any more, and he locks the door, only answering it when some decidedly shady characters show up. Some people know that the shady types are known for selling guns, instead of knives.
All this time, the guy can be seen in his window occasionally, screaming vengeance at the big neighbor and his friends, threatening to kill his family.
Now, what would you do? Do you think it's reasonable to force him to submit to inspection of his hidden areas? Or are you willing to wait until he steps out his front door and starts killing people, or your family ends up dead at his hands?
The difference between Iraq and any other nation that currently has WMD's is that he has, without hesitation, used them on his own people. He has invaded neighboring countries. He has attempted to purchase Uranium. And he has ignored and rebuffed all attempts to prove he is innocent.
The other countries that Griffinme is referring to are Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan, an Turkey.
The US has been repeatedly accused of causing the deaths of 500,000 children in Iraq over the last decade, usually by Iraq and other international groups.
You've taken my response to you question about other terrorist situations and twisted them. The comment I made about Bosnia was primarily to illustrate the difference between the UK, which did not ask for our assistance, and Bosnia, which did. I did not mean to begin a discussion on the relative effectiveness of the two situations. I'm not sure precisely which funding the IRA got from the US, but it's outside of the scope of this conversation and I'd be happy if you'd enlighten me elsewhere.
One last thing: your analogy is wrong regarding a man who MIGHT have a knife. Try this one, along the same line:
A man breaks into his neighbors house, steals everything he can get his hands on, kills half the family and forces the rest to run screaming from the house.
The Neighbors get together, and the biggest guy and a couple of his friends go in and beat the crap out of this guy, take away his knife, and march him back to his house and put him under house arrest.
Every once in a while somebody goes in to make sure he hasn't made a gun or a knife, but he won't let the guards check his bathroom, kitchen, or a spare room that he says is his entertainment room.
Meanwhile, he continues to torture his OWN family, and pets.
Finally, the guards are told they are not allowed to come back any more, and he locks the door, only answering it when some decidedly shady characters show up. Some people know that the shady types are known for selling guns, instead of knives.
All this time, the guy can be seen in his window occasionally, screaming vengeance at the big neighbor and his friends, threatening to kill his family.
Now, what would you do? Do you think it's reasonable to force him to submit to inspection of his hidden areas? Or are you willing to wait until he steps out his front door and starts killing people, or your family ends up dead at his hands?
The difference between Iraq and any other nation that currently has WMD's is that he has, without hesitation, used them on his own people. He has invaded neighboring countries. He has attempted to purchase Uranium. And he has ignored and rebuffed all attempts to prove he is innocent.
Kinrik
Reply #44 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:18 PM
Reply #44 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:18 PM
listen to Grog...
Semper...
Williams DA
Sergeant
United States Marine Corps
(FORMER)
(I also saw a Master Sergeant stroll through here a while back, I believe he was. And there is another skinner I haven't seen in about a year and a half...Buzzhog, still active, I think.)
Semper...
Williams DA
Sergeant
United States Marine Corps
(FORMER)
(I also saw a Master Sergeant stroll through here a while back, I believe he was. And there is another skinner I haven't seen in about a year and a half...Buzzhog, still active, I think.)
Kinrik
Reply #45 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:20 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:20 PM
ya'll want some peace of mind... http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,351094,00.html ...dig in.
Kinrik
Reply #46 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:22 PM
Reply #46 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:22 PM
oops...
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,351094,00.html
i wonder why it chops the part after the first comma? it'll probably do it again here...
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/article/0,12543,351094,00.html
i wonder why it chops the part after the first comma? it'll probably do it again here...
Kinrik
Reply #47 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:25 PM
Reply #47 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:25 PM
aaaargh...
http : // www . popsci.com / popsci / science / article / 0 , 12543 , 351094 , 00 . html
ok, here it is...just copy it to the browser and dump the spaces...man this is irritating. anyways, it is about the US (possibly) going to minature nuclear precision bombing for bunker busting on non-nuclear countries since nothing else (bunker busting bomb wise) works...
http : // www . popsci.com / popsci / science / article / 0 , 12543 , 351094 , 00 . html
ok, here it is...just copy it to the browser and dump the spaces...man this is irritating. anyways, it is about the US (possibly) going to minature nuclear precision bombing for bunker busting on non-nuclear countries since nothing else (bunker busting bomb wise) works...
Aleatoric
Reply #48 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:49 PM
Reply #48 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:49 PM
datarat,
I'm not advocating inaction. That's often worse than the disease.
And while your analogy is apt, my problem with some of the proposed actions are that an ad hoc removal of Saddam would not necessarily ameliorate the situation.
To further your analogy, we could rush in, grab the man, kill him (or whatever) and feel that we've fixed the problem. But then, what if another member of that family now takes advantage of the situation to put himself in the same position as the one we just removed? I'm guessing that you aren't advocating demolishing the entire house, family and all. Do we arbitrarily pick a family member to look after the house, and hope they won't be as bad? And do you think that we would unequivocally find every possible WMD and deal with them?
That Saddam needs to be dealt with is a given in my book. What I have an ethical disconnect about is the manner in which we do it, and what our real goals in doing it are. But to further abuse your house analogy, are we really going in to correct the issue, or just to make ourselves feel like we've done something, without actually fundamentally changing anything?
I'm not anywhere naive enough to believe that the U.N. has any hope of addressing the problem, they're about as effective as trying to cut down a tree with chopsticks.
The big problem I have is that we have a faction that is all fired up to go get Saddam, but no significant thought has been applied to what happens after.
Ethics and motivations matter, both in execution and in follow through, and I'm not convinced that we're giving that enough consideration. We don't want to look ineffective, so we rush in with a zeal to fix something, but we're not really focused on what it is we're trying to fix, and we're not thinking about the aftereffects of our actions.
I'm not advocating inaction. That's often worse than the disease.
And while your analogy is apt, my problem with some of the proposed actions are that an ad hoc removal of Saddam would not necessarily ameliorate the situation.
To further your analogy, we could rush in, grab the man, kill him (or whatever) and feel that we've fixed the problem. But then, what if another member of that family now takes advantage of the situation to put himself in the same position as the one we just removed? I'm guessing that you aren't advocating demolishing the entire house, family and all. Do we arbitrarily pick a family member to look after the house, and hope they won't be as bad? And do you think that we would unequivocally find every possible WMD and deal with them?
That Saddam needs to be dealt with is a given in my book. What I have an ethical disconnect about is the manner in which we do it, and what our real goals in doing it are. But to further abuse your house analogy, are we really going in to correct the issue, or just to make ourselves feel like we've done something, without actually fundamentally changing anything?
I'm not anywhere naive enough to believe that the U.N. has any hope of addressing the problem, they're about as effective as trying to cut down a tree with chopsticks.
The big problem I have is that we have a faction that is all fired up to go get Saddam, but no significant thought has been applied to what happens after.
Ethics and motivations matter, both in execution and in follow through, and I'm not convinced that we're giving that enough consideration. We don't want to look ineffective, so we rush in with a zeal to fix something, but we're not really focused on what it is we're trying to fix, and we're not thinking about the aftereffects of our actions.
paxx
Reply #49 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:58 PM
Reply #49 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 2:58 PM
datarat, you're right. I had read that he accepted without conditions. But indeed the "without conditions" had one exception, his presidential property.
Well, my opinion hardly counts, but I believe Saddam will probably remove that exception when military pressure starts to be imminent. I just hope that if/when he does comply that the US and allies will not send troup anyway.
And also, concerning your comment about a nuclear bomb dropped on the US, it is not likely to happen anytime soon. A report from the US intelligence estimates to 2010 the year when Iraq will be capable of building neclear weapons. The threat right now is not nuclear but possibly chemical and biological, which is hardly better.
Well, my opinion hardly counts, but I believe Saddam will probably remove that exception when military pressure starts to be imminent. I just hope that if/when he does comply that the US and allies will not send troup anyway.
And also, concerning your comment about a nuclear bomb dropped on the US, it is not likely to happen anytime soon. A report from the US intelligence estimates to 2010 the year when Iraq will be capable of building neclear weapons. The threat right now is not nuclear but possibly chemical and biological, which is hardly better.
Doreen
Reply #50 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:10 PM
Reply #50 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:10 PM
2010 was their original estimate, but the president said otherwise, if that was the case why is he so dead set on jumping the gun at this moment!
*sigh* I have no idea why I watched his speech everything between the lines sounds like he has his mind made up, but time will tell, I think he said by the end of this week or something of that nature not sure (cuz I was daydreaming that I wish I could take my kids and family and run to the moon away from this madness)cuz "Going to war or not" assures no peace here on this earth...
*sigh* I have no idea why I watched his speech everything between the lines sounds like he has his mind made up, but time will tell, I think he said by the end of this week or something of that nature not sure (cuz I was daydreaming that I wish I could take my kids and family and run to the moon away from this madness)cuz "Going to war or not" assures no peace here on this earth...
Lecrayon
Reply #51 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:14 PM
Reply #51 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:14 PM
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/us021008.html from a dutch correspondent.
Bakerstreet, the attack on Afghanistan was done by NATO and the US. Remember it was the first time since WW2 the NATO applied the rule of helping a friend in wartime. The majority however was done with the overwhelming power of the US.
Iraq is a different case, ousting Saddam will solve it? There I agree with Aleatoric. And ofcourse I agree with Carlitus. He is right. Politics shouldn't be polled on a skinning site. He knows what terrorism is. As I have written earlier, Europe tries to deal with it as good and as bad as it is.
Bakerstreet, the attack on Afghanistan was done by NATO and the US. Remember it was the first time since WW2 the NATO applied the rule of helping a friend in wartime. The majority however was done with the overwhelming power of the US.
Iraq is a different case, ousting Saddam will solve it? There I agree with Aleatoric. And ofcourse I agree with Carlitus. He is right. Politics shouldn't be polled on a skinning site. He knows what terrorism is. As I have written earlier, Europe tries to deal with it as good and as bad as it is.
paxx
Reply #52 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:17 PM
Reply #52 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:17 PM
I know Doreen. This is why our (in Canada) journalists commented that they don't understand where he got his "within one year" since the report made public by the Intelligence services said in 2010. Bush just seems in a hurry. You know as well as I that words of politicians are not always truthful, as long as it gets them what they want.
Doreen
Reply #53 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:32 PM
Reply #53 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:32 PM
Paxx they never say what is really going on... you have to feel the air... 
the secrets they keep from the public are a shame, and they only release a few facts when they are down to the wire
cuz even our hospitals are stock piling for Bio attack while the past news was going on to say oh dont worry everything is fine relaxxxxx
but w/ each passing day the air gets thicker, who knows...
I only freak out thinking about my kids, if we get that mushroom cloud it will be faster then the bio...
how sad to think human beings do this stuff to each other
the secrets they keep from the public are a shame, and they only release a few facts when they are down to the wire
cuz even our hospitals are stock piling for Bio attack while the past news was going on to say oh dont worry everything is fine relaxxxxx
but w/ each passing day the air gets thicker, who knows...
I only freak out thinking about my kids, if we get that mushroom cloud it will be faster then the bio...
how sad to think human beings do this stuff to each other
Doreen
Reply #54 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:38 PM
Reply #54 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:38 PM
Doreen goes to listen to some Reggae stuff! hehe
whatever will be will be, you guys no use even debating it...
whatever will be will be, you guys no use even debating it...
Kinrik
Reply #55 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:46 PM
Reply #55 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 3:46 PM
ya'll need to just go skin something and get your minds off of this. whatever happens will not be altered by the efforts of you on a skinning board/site.
like i said...you want to make a difference, join up, earn the rank, do the time, become productive.
it's just like people who don't like a site. don't complain. become productive and influential, and then call your shots once you have the respect and following/influence.
go skin something and put your focus on something else, if you can.
like i said...you want to make a difference, join up, earn the rank, do the time, become productive.
it's just like people who don't like a site. don't complain. become productive and influential, and then call your shots once you have the respect and following/influence.
go skin something and put your focus on something else, if you can.
Bangkokboy
Reply #56 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:09 PM
Reply #56 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:09 PM
There are no good solutions now, and there were no good solutions when I was in the Vietnam war. The lack of good solutions there was overshadowed by the more imminent concern that people in my immediate periphery presented me with a dilemma: kill them first or die. I was very consistent at choosing the former so you're stuck with me. The next terrorist act on our soil which murders hundreds or thousands of people will take the current debate out of the ethereal philosophical strata and bring it down to the realm of gritty reality/survival where, for better or worse, philosophical niceties only whisper in a voice that's barely audible. Why are we talking about stuff like this on a great site like this when we could be skinning something? 
moshi
Reply #57 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:17 PM
Reply #57 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:17 PM
what´s that crap with until you´re not in the military you´ll have to shut up? and that minature nuclear precision bombing sounds REALLY great 
should i scan some photos my father has taken in Kabul and Belgrade? you´ll be amazed how smart those and precise those bombs really are ... of course that is stuff never covered on CNN.
should i scan some photos my father has taken in Kabul and Belgrade? you´ll be amazed how smart those and precise those bombs really are ... of course that is stuff never covered on CNN.
Kinrik
Reply #58 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:21 PM
Reply #58 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:21 PM
hey mosh, i'm saying your words on a message board have less effect on effecting change than physically doing something, and civillians are limitted on what they can physically do.
Kinrik
Reply #59 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:25 PM
Reply #59 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:25 PM
"everyone except them should shut the hell up, because they are the ONLY ones with the possibility of being in direct action." followed by "quit getting your skirt in a ruffle and either do something about it or shut up and go skin something".
that was the quote from me, by me, moshi. it says, again, if you aren't the one travelling into harm's way, then quit the ranting, since it does nothing productive, and get to skinning, which is what this site is about. Not politics, not religion, not medicine, not race, etc...
that was the quote from me, by me, moshi. it says, again, if you aren't the one travelling into harm's way, then quit the ranting, since it does nothing productive, and get to skinning, which is what this site is about. Not politics, not religion, not medicine, not race, etc...
Kinrik
Reply #60 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:27 PM
Reply #60 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 4:27 PM
and again...when i said "your" words on a message board...I'm not saying you specifically, but generally, encompassing all of us.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, October 9, 2002 1:29 PM
1) The war never ended there is a "Cease Fire" in effect that has been violated by Iraq more than 400 times at last count. He has not allowed weapons inspectors into country for over 4 years. Either and both of which are justification to resume hostilities, since they both violate the terms of the "Cease Fire"
2) The United States and the United Kingdom have enforced the "No Fly" zone for over 10 years with little to no help from our "Allies". And both countries jets get shot at nearly every time, and mostly do not return fire. The current rules of engagement for the Coalition forces are so strict that unless there are NO civilians within X amount of miles they may not return fire under any circumstances.
3) It was mentioned that the US gets 900+ ships worth of gas from Iraq via Turkey every week. I would love to know where that came from, since Iraq can't even come close to that number of ships in a month under the "Oil for Food" program. Oh, and the pipeline between Iraq and Turkey has never been finished.
4) If you think that us members of the US military want to go into Iraq and get rid of Sadam you would only be half right. We want him gone more than anyone on the planet probably with the exception of his own people that he routinely abuses. Why you might ask, well when was the last time you spent any time living in a tent in Turkey or living in the Sand of Saudi? When was the last time you missed every major holiday and special occasion with your family. If he was gone our lives would be much nicer, and the same can be said for our British counterparts. Now if he can be made to leave without direct military intervention that is the best option bar none. Unfortunately I don't think that anyone will debate the fact that dear old Sadam has no plans to retire to a nice little island in the South Pacific. If he does not leave via peaceful means, then it is time to ask him to the door with other less pleasant means.
6) What ever the UN and the United States Decide that is not backed up with the threat of Force will be ignored by Sadam, just as he has ignored every other toothless mandate that has been sent to him over the past 11 years. When was the last time he showed anything but contempt for the rest of the world.
So like I said at the start I’m a little biased but in the end I would much rather spend Christmas with my Wife and Son than in a tent eating a MRE (Meal Ready to Eat sort of). I may sympathize with the feelings of those in Europe and other locations, but as they say here in the States, you are no more than “Arm Chair Quarterbacks” unless you wear a uniform. No matter which country you are from just ask someone in uniform from your country and I think that you will get an opinion that is a little different than that of the Media.
Peace
Christopher Conley
Gunnery Sergeant
United States Marine Corps
PS: Anyone who ever says that war is a good thing has NEVER been there. War is NEVER good but sadly it is somtimes the only viable course of action.