Mac user obnoxiousness
Tuesday, October 1, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/09/30.14.shtml
I don't really like Macs or more to the point, I can't think of Macs without thinking of Mac users.
Mac users sincerely believe that everything good and nice on the UI came from the mind of Apple first.
The latest example is WindowFX where Mac bigots seem to think that they invented this stuff. WindowFX came out before Aqua. And if someone wants to find what program inspired WindowFX more than anything else it was NPS/WPS from OS/2 which came out years ago (it had shadows, morphing of windows on min/max, etc.).
Apple does get credit for making cool effects famous but that's not the same as having invented it.
I don't really like Macs or more to the point, I can't think of Macs without thinking of Mac users.
Mac users sincerely believe that everything good and nice on the UI came from the mind of Apple first.
The latest example is WindowFX where Mac bigots seem to think that they invented this stuff. WindowFX came out before Aqua. And if someone wants to find what program inspired WindowFX more than anything else it was NPS/WPS from OS/2 which came out years ago (it had shadows, morphing of windows on min/max, etc.).
Apple does get credit for making cool effects famous but that's not the same as having invented it.
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Bangkokboy
Reply #42 Thursday, October 3, 2002 1:59 PM
Reply #42 Thursday, October 3, 2002 1:59 PM
These attitudes aren't just with computers. A certain German auto maker adopts hydraulic valve lifters 20 years after everyone else, and then splashes TV adds all over with a smooth running engine, and a voice which croons " listen to the sound of an XXX's valves adjusting themselves!" As if they had just invented some marvelous new technology!
Caveat emptor.
Caveat emptor.
brazil
Reply #43 Thursday, October 3, 2002 2:11 PM
Reply #43 Thursday, October 3, 2002 2:11 PM
yer right BB,It just bothers me more when the Macster's do it,,I duuno why.It just makes me think to myself,there they go again catching up with the rest of the world and then stake their claim.
jtfolden
Reply #45 Thursday, October 3, 2002 3:33 PM
Reply #45 Thursday, October 3, 2002 3:33 PM
Frogboy, I find the current Power Macs to be over-priced for what many would use them for but, as I'd mentioned previously the PM's have a much better resale value. I've got a couple Power Mac's here that are on the verge of hitting the two year old mark. I could easily sell them for $1,000-$1400 which more than makes up for any 'over the top' price I might have paid when new, imo. OTOH, I don't think the new iMacs are expensive at all, especially when you compare them to the recent Gateway AIO. Build-yer-own boxes will always be cheaper of course.
As far as the 'community' goes, I'd guess I would agree for the most part - except that I've seen the same thing with just about every OS. Though the Linux ones tend to be far worse, imo.
I'm not really into portable music players, brazil, but I do have a question... Do they support FireWire?
That seems to be the only big draw for me if I were to buy an iPod. USB seems rather slow for moving 20GB of mp3's through (but USB2 eliminates this bottleneck I guess).
As far as the 'community' goes, I'd guess I would agree for the most part - except that I've seen the same thing with just about every OS. Though the Linux ones tend to be far worse, imo.
I'm not really into portable music players, brazil, but I do have a question... Do they support FireWire?
That seems to be the only big draw for me if I were to buy an iPod. USB seems rather slow for moving 20GB of mp3's through (but USB2 eliminates this bottleneck I guess).
brazil
Reply #46 Thursday, October 3, 2002 3:50 PM
Reply #46 Thursday, October 3, 2002 3:50 PM
yer right jtfolen,USB is a drag.And yes both of mine are.Luckily I am a musician and have over 3000 cd's and found it somewhat enjoyable ta mess around and organize them in little boxes.The slow process became kind of like a break point for me ta stratagize my next burn. 
And I am also told by me MacFreak buddies,I have Apple to thank fer the USB itself.Whatever the case I do indeed have Firewire envy.You might want ta get you one at some point,,having 700 discs with you in yer gym bag or backpack is quite a thrill!!
And I am also told by me MacFreak buddies,I have Apple to thank fer the USB itself.Whatever the case I do indeed have Firewire envy.You might want ta get you one at some point,,having 700 discs with you in yer gym bag or backpack is quite a thrill!!
Frogboy
Reply #47 Thursday, October 3, 2002 6:50 PM
Reply #47 Thursday, October 3, 2002 6:50 PM
I will say that I'm a big fan of firewire and USB2 (I have both on my PC) -- see my article at www.joeuser.com about home movies 2002 to see how I used them.
The thing I like about the Mac is that it's excellent at doing the things it's good at. Whereas Windows is decent at a ton of things but not really excellent at anything in particular.
But that's all besides the point in my mind. I just don't consider MacOS as being particularly innovative. Sure, it was pretty innovative in 1984 but it's 2002 now. Nearly 20 years later. I don't think OS X is innovative. I don't think fireware is innovative.
And since I obviously think of Stardock as an innovator (I mean let's be real, if it weren't for us, there'd be no Luna in the first place in XP). We were skinning the GUI back in 1994. We did alpha blended shadows first. And we've been sensitive to the concerns of Mac users (we have a full blown Aqua dock that we've not publicly released for going on 2 years now -- complete with genie effect and ability to view movies and other things right in the dock).
So when they claim to retroactively have invented things that we did first, it riles up the blood.
IBM OS/2 was the home to a helluva lot of innovation (as my friend John can tell you). Apple and Microsoft stole plenty from it (and it stole plenty from them) but it tends to get forgotten.
The thing I like about the Mac is that it's excellent at doing the things it's good at. Whereas Windows is decent at a ton of things but not really excellent at anything in particular.
But that's all besides the point in my mind. I just don't consider MacOS as being particularly innovative. Sure, it was pretty innovative in 1984 but it's 2002 now. Nearly 20 years later. I don't think OS X is innovative. I don't think fireware is innovative.
And since I obviously think of Stardock as an innovator (I mean let's be real, if it weren't for us, there'd be no Luna in the first place in XP). We were skinning the GUI back in 1994. We did alpha blended shadows first. And we've been sensitive to the concerns of Mac users (we have a full blown Aqua dock that we've not publicly released for going on 2 years now -- complete with genie effect and ability to view movies and other things right in the dock).
So when they claim to retroactively have invented things that we did first, it riles up the blood.
IBM OS/2 was the home to a helluva lot of innovation (as my friend John can tell you). Apple and Microsoft stole plenty from it (and it stole plenty from them) but it tends to get forgotten.
mormegil
Reply #48 Thursday, October 3, 2002 7:15 PM
Reply #48 Thursday, October 3, 2002 7:15 PM
Wow, a Aqua dock, I would have been exsited before I got the real thing and got sick to death of it afer a few weeks. I would love it on the mack again if I could customize it, but apple goes out of there way to make sure it is as hard as posible to do.
jtfolden
Reply #49 Thursday, October 3, 2002 7:41 PM
Reply #49 Thursday, October 3, 2002 7:41 PM
That is indeed VERY TRUE about OS/2. I remember suffering from culture shock when I finally had to abandon it for NT4... there was just so much missing that it wasn't funny. Actually, I think MS and Apple could still do well to re-visit some old innovations there. OTOH, a lot of the more useful features and traits found in OS X are only there because of it's NeXT heritage.
I have to wonder what the computing landscape would look like today if it had been OS/2 and NeXTSTEP that went on to rule the roost, rather than Windows and the 'Classic" Mac OS.
I have to wonder what the computing landscape would look like today if it had been OS/2 and NeXTSTEP that went on to rule the roost, rather than Windows and the 'Classic" Mac OS.
plainsong
Reply #50 Thursday, October 3, 2002 9:47 PM
Reply #50 Thursday, October 3, 2002 9:47 PM
Hurray! A thread I can say something in! 
I have been a mac user since July when I got my g4 imac, but I hesitate to say I "made the switch" because XP is a fine OS, I still use it daily to sync my PocketPc (Apple will not force me to use a Palm... Doreen - I'm back!), and we network and blah blah blah everything you'd do if it were two pcs in the house.
Basically, no one wants to be told teir OS of choice sucks. And besides being a minority, there's such misinformation out there that PC users tend to spread (not here.. I'm talking about people who only think they know how to use internet explorer. You know who I mean), that's it's only a bit natural for Mac users to get a tad defensive.
I just use a mac because I like it. There's nothing that I do with it that a pc can't, it's just I find it peaceful to use. Having said that, Apple is as two-faced about their digital hub as Microsoft is about Pocketpc. They shout from the rooftops about universal standards, yet only support a handful of devices. We'll see how it progresses, but I bet it's one of those sea monkey ideas. Speaking of insanity, Apple is just plain stupid about customization. OsX could be just as customizable as XP, if Apple allowed it (it's purposefully broken with each update). They just end up driving away the very kind of graphics customers they'd like to attract, but that's their stupidity.
But in a fit of mac snobbishness: It took me 30 seconds to set up bluetooth with my Mac, and it took Juni hours to find out that XP wasn't working right.
Sorry.. couldn't resist
I have been a mac user since July when I got my g4 imac, but I hesitate to say I "made the switch" because XP is a fine OS, I still use it daily to sync my PocketPc (Apple will not force me to use a Palm... Doreen - I'm back!), and we network and blah blah blah everything you'd do if it were two pcs in the house.
Basically, no one wants to be told teir OS of choice sucks. And besides being a minority, there's such misinformation out there that PC users tend to spread (not here.. I'm talking about people who only think they know how to use internet explorer. You know who I mean), that's it's only a bit natural for Mac users to get a tad defensive.
I just use a mac because I like it. There's nothing that I do with it that a pc can't, it's just I find it peaceful to use. Having said that, Apple is as two-faced about their digital hub as Microsoft is about Pocketpc. They shout from the rooftops about universal standards, yet only support a handful of devices. We'll see how it progresses, but I bet it's one of those sea monkey ideas. Speaking of insanity, Apple is just plain stupid about customization. OsX could be just as customizable as XP, if Apple allowed it (it's purposefully broken with each update). They just end up driving away the very kind of graphics customers they'd like to attract, but that's their stupidity.
But in a fit of mac snobbishness: It took me 30 seconds to set up bluetooth with my Mac, and it took Juni hours to find out that XP wasn't working right.
Sorry.. couldn't resist
JamMeister33
Reply #51 Thursday, October 3, 2002 10:33 PM
Reply #51 Thursday, October 3, 2002 10:33 PM
Well, everybody is getting so technical and I'm in a bad mood...
So...
Sorry, won't go off right now, blew it all out screaming at the neighbor's dog..
I'm plumb tuckered out.
By the way, Mac's can kiss my A**.
>
So...
Sorry, won't go off right now, blew it all out screaming at the neighbor's dog..
I'm plumb tuckered out.
By the way, Mac's can kiss my A**.
>
The Rated PG
Reply #52 Thursday, October 3, 2002 11:47 PM
Reply #52 Thursday, October 3, 2002 11:47 PM
Here is reality from my perspective. I have constantly seen software with "not available for apple/mac" Why decorate the back of a monitor to sell your product apple? I don't care to look at the back of my monitor. Also why create a fancy tower to sell your product apple? I don't care what it looks like, its whats in it. Also I have never seen a apple/mac cheaper than a windows system period. Not even used systems. Another thing. Why don't you have an generic brand of apple systems? Windows compatible systems do. You don't see dell, gateway, HP, compact, or other brand names on my computer, but if I wanted to buy and apple based system, no generics. Do what yopu gotta do, but no business from me apple.
Carlitus
Reply #53 Friday, October 4, 2002 8:22 AM
Reply #53 Friday, October 4, 2002 8:22 AM
Some of yours are very 'contemptuous' about Macs.
Yes, it's true: Mac comunity it's 'contemptuous' too. But you are exagerating; if you don't like the Mac users attitude, don't act like them.
I disagree too the Apple 'molopolistic attitude' about their computers, but don't forget the 'enhanced molopolistic attitude' of Bill (borg) Gates; he is a opportunist too.
Yes, it's true: Mac comunity it's 'contemptuous' too. But you are exagerating; if you don't like the Mac users attitude, don't act like them.
I disagree too the Apple 'molopolistic attitude' about their computers, but don't forget the 'enhanced molopolistic attitude' of Bill (borg) Gates; he is a opportunist too.
paxx
Reply #54 Friday, October 4, 2002 8:54 AM
Reply #54 Friday, October 4, 2002 8:54 AM
Yes, Apple and Microsoft are equally bad companies with their equally (although different) bad corporate mentalities.
Just a note about software. I'm sure that for most regular users, the amount of Mac software is sufficient, but whenever you're a bit of a "power user" such as I am, it just doesn't cut it anymore. I use a lot of small software that are not available on Macs. It's the plain sad truth. Although I am not fond of Microsoft, I'm stuck using their operating system because that's what software developers develop for, until another operating system comes up that is 100% compatible with Windows software.
Just a note about software. I'm sure that for most regular users, the amount of Mac software is sufficient, but whenever you're a bit of a "power user" such as I am, it just doesn't cut it anymore. I use a lot of small software that are not available on Macs. It's the plain sad truth. Although I am not fond of Microsoft, I'm stuck using their operating system because that's what software developers develop for, until another operating system comes up that is 100% compatible with Windows software.
craeonics
Reply #55 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:25 AM
Reply #55 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:25 AM
Mac versus PC thread --> dead end.
I can work on both and they both suck. Whatever gets the job done is fine for me.
Besides, it's so sad when people identify themselves with the OS they use.
I can work on both and they both suck. Whatever gets the job done is fine for me.
Besides, it's so sad when people identify themselves with the OS they use.
craeonics
Reply #56 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:42 AM
Reply #56 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:42 AM
Also, the Annoying Ones are everywhere. Who they are exactly, depends on the side of the fence you're on.
messybuu
Reply #57 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:45 AM
Reply #57 Friday, October 4, 2002 9:45 AM
Personally, my eXPerience with Linux during my anti-Microsoft phase led me to believe that although Microsoft might be bad, they surely aren't alone in their EVIL thirst to monopolize, and I'm not just referring to Apple. As for the communities, it's hard to say whether or not the Apple community is worse than the Linux community. I haven't noticed many Windows zealots, but that's probably because most people despise Microsoft anyway.
e m e
Reply #58 Friday, October 4, 2002 10:58 AM
Reply #58 Friday, October 4, 2002 10:58 AM
I really dont care whether you use mac, linux, windows, dos, os/2, anything... every OS has its good thing and bad things... I use both mac an pc, and they both do the job for, although i miss some customization from the pc world, but macosx does look cool...
Kinrik
Reply #59 Friday, October 4, 2002 11:12 AM
Reply #59 Friday, October 4, 2002 11:12 AM
I just use a hammer and chisel on this pile of rocks, right here...see?
When I get done tapping out a post, I throw it into the phone lines dangling above my thatch-roof hut, and when the sparks go flying, the messages post here. To read them I jump up and grab a line, and right before the juice throws me back a hundred feet or so, I get a flash of the message board and everything on it, so I can read all of the replies.
What is this weird "Operating System" thing you speak of?!?!
Kinrik closes one eye, takes careful aim with tongue sticking out, and hucks the stone "tablet" at the buzzing cables above...
When I get done tapping out a post, I throw it into the phone lines dangling above my thatch-roof hut, and when the sparks go flying, the messages post here. To read them I jump up and grab a line, and right before the juice throws me back a hundred feet or so, I get a flash of the message board and everything on it, so I can read all of the replies.
What is this weird "Operating System" thing you speak of?!?!
Kinrik closes one eye, takes careful aim with tongue sticking out, and hucks the stone "tablet" at the buzzing cables above...
wombat_1
Reply #60 Friday, October 4, 2002 11:27 AM
Reply #60 Friday, October 4, 2002 11:27 AM
IMHO you use the best of the various systems that suit your needs.
I need to use my G4 because all the print media people I deal with are Mac users (aka Mac snobs!) but the system is OK for that purpose.
For once, MS have a really good OS in XP pro, once you get rid of all the crappy bells and whistles, and it runs fine on my 'built by the Wombat' box.
Linux Mandrake is great for tinkering with on the old 'crash and burn' box ..... but its really just a diversion for me.
Despite our (assumed!) collective dislike of Bill the Borg we should remember that MS were the people who brought the 'OS for Joe Public' to the fore, even if Joe Public was used a laboratory rat!
Wombat retreats to his level 7 bunker in anticipation of a large amount of flak!
I need to use my G4 because all the print media people I deal with are Mac users (aka Mac snobs!) but the system is OK for that purpose.
For once, MS have a really good OS in XP pro, once you get rid of all the crappy bells and whistles, and it runs fine on my 'built by the Wombat' box.
Linux Mandrake is great for tinkering with on the old 'crash and burn' box ..... but its really just a diversion for me.
Despite our (assumed!) collective dislike of Bill the Borg we should remember that MS were the people who brought the 'OS for Joe Public' to the fore, even if Joe Public was used a laboratory rat!
Wombat retreats to his level 7 bunker in anticipation of a large amount of flak!
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Reply #41 Thursday, October 3, 2002 1:14 PM