Mac user obnoxiousness
Tuesday, October 1, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/09/30.14.shtml
I don't really like Macs or more to the point, I can't think of Macs without thinking of Mac users.
Mac users sincerely believe that everything good and nice on the UI came from the mind of Apple first.
The latest example is WindowFX where Mac bigots seem to think that they invented this stuff. WindowFX came out before Aqua. And if someone wants to find what program inspired WindowFX more than anything else it was NPS/WPS from OS/2 which came out years ago (it had shadows, morphing of windows on min/max, etc.).
Apple does get credit for making cool effects famous but that's not the same as having invented it.
I don't really like Macs or more to the point, I can't think of Macs without thinking of Mac users.
Mac users sincerely believe that everything good and nice on the UI came from the mind of Apple first.
The latest example is WindowFX where Mac bigots seem to think that they invented this stuff. WindowFX came out before Aqua. And if someone wants to find what program inspired WindowFX more than anything else it was NPS/WPS from OS/2 which came out years ago (it had shadows, morphing of windows on min/max, etc.).
Apple does get credit for making cool effects famous but that's not the same as having invented it.
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paxx
Reply #62 Friday, October 4, 2002 12:38 PM
Reply #62 Friday, October 4, 2002 12:38 PM
But wouldn't it be nice to chose the OS because you like the OS, period?
If all OS's were compatible, if they all could run the same software, now people could really select the OS they want. And something tells me the Mac OS would win a much bigger piece of the cake.
If all OS's were compatible, if they all could run the same software, now people could really select the OS they want. And something tells me the Mac OS would win a much bigger piece of the cake.
messybuu
Reply #63 Friday, October 4, 2002 2:32 PM
Reply #63 Friday, October 4, 2002 2:32 PM
Paxx, I actually believe that people could choose the OS they want because they like it. Sure, people say that Linux don't have Mac the software necessary, but they do, unless it's some completely obscure and rare software. It's just not always apparent. It's like when people first used Windows. I'm positive that it wasn't bundled with all the software they needed. In fact, I'm sure many of the people didn't know what software would benefit them the most. Like when people first used computers, it will simply require adaptation to find the software one needs.
Bangkokboy
Reply #64 Friday, October 4, 2002 2:56 PM
Reply #64 Friday, October 4, 2002 2:56 PM
The old cliche said to choose between lighting a candle and cursing the darkness. Candle was the operative word - not flamethrower. If it works good for you ( and can be skinned to a satisfactory degree) then love it. Just don't insist that everyone else join you! 
jtfolden
Reply #65 Saturday, October 5, 2002 2:26 AM
Reply #65 Saturday, October 5, 2002 2:26 AM
Paxx, the fact that you may be tied to whatever Windows software you use as a 'power user' doesn't mean that there aren't equally useful apps for the Mac. Plenty of mac users are power users and they get along without missing a thing from Windows, and if a really obscure need arises they can always install X Windows and find a *NIX app. Being Windows compatible is not the answer... it certainly hurt OS/2 a lot more than it helped, IMO.
craeonics
Reply #66 Saturday, October 5, 2002 9:47 AM
Reply #66 Saturday, October 5, 2002 9:47 AM
Paxxy means being able to run any app on any OS, not conforming one OS to the other. Just the same car can use a different engine. To the end user it makes no difference.
craeonics
Reply #67 Saturday, October 5, 2002 9:49 AM
Reply #67 Saturday, October 5, 2002 9:49 AM
Awright, insert a 'like' in there. My mind is faster than my fingers.
Jafo
Reply #68 Saturday, October 5, 2002 11:34 AM
Reply #68 Saturday, October 5, 2002 11:34 AM
plainsong....'ignorant hypocrates' is a 'bit' unfortunate....the word is 'hypocrites'....
messybuu
Reply #69 Saturday, October 5, 2002 4:04 PM
Reply #69 Saturday, October 5, 2002 4:04 PM
There are applications that try to be cross-platform, such as JAVA, Mozilla, and Winamp3, and they're HIDEOUSLY ugly! That is why I believe being cross-platform is overrated.
plainsong
Reply #70 Monday, October 7, 2002 9:58 PM
Reply #70 Monday, October 7, 2002 9:58 PM
Well I'm checking up on this a bit late.. but ..DOH! I even ran the spelling of that one by Juni. He ok'd it.. it's his fault. 
It's sad, English is Juni's third language, and it's my first (and pretty much only). I always have to go to him for spelling help.
But that doesn't change the fact, there were a few there slamming the mac users for their attitude and then showing that same attitude while spouting untruths about a system they don't use. Got me mad. But I know what Frogboy's talking about. You always run into those zealots and whatever platform's gospel they're trying to spread, it's always annoying.
plainsong - spelling emmpared.
It's sad, English is Juni's third language, and it's my first (and pretty much only). I always have to go to him for spelling help.
But that doesn't change the fact, there were a few there slamming the mac users for their attitude and then showing that same attitude while spouting untruths about a system they don't use. Got me mad. But I know what Frogboy's talking about. You always run into those zealots and whatever platform's gospel they're trying to spread, it's always annoying.
plainsong - spelling emmpared.
plainsong
Reply #71 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:01 PM
Reply #71 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:01 PM
Makes me wonder though, did Frogboy read those articles over at Wired about custization and did he get a tad annoyed that the influence or advances of Stardock weren't even mentioned and that all credit went to the Mac world?
I found those articles lacking too..
I found those articles lacking too..
paxx
Reply #73 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:21 PM
Reply #73 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:21 PM
Nevermind Messiah,
I guess I'm not being understood.
No applications are truly cross platform. What I mean is take the same version of Office, or Photoshop or Dreamweaver or heck Windowblinds, and install it on a Mac, on a PC or on a Linux machine and they will all do the same things the same way. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't exist right now, so there is no comparison since it's not possible right now. All the OS makers are afraid that if they are too much compatible with their competitor they would loose customers.
We all browse the same Internet although there are different browsers (Netscape, Mozilla, Explorer, Opera, etc.), and they all pretty much show the pages the same way. Still, some people prefer one over the other because of different things: speed, special features, stablity, prettiness, etc.
I think OS's should work the same way. Just like there is the W3C, I think there should be the OSC and decide upon a definate standard that all OS's should conform to.
Anyway, I also want peace on earth. Dream on.
I guess I'm not being understood.
No applications are truly cross platform. What I mean is take the same version of Office, or Photoshop or Dreamweaver or heck Windowblinds, and install it on a Mac, on a PC or on a Linux machine and they will all do the same things the same way. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't exist right now, so there is no comparison since it's not possible right now. All the OS makers are afraid that if they are too much compatible with their competitor they would loose customers.
We all browse the same Internet although there are different browsers (Netscape, Mozilla, Explorer, Opera, etc.), and they all pretty much show the pages the same way. Still, some people prefer one over the other because of different things: speed, special features, stablity, prettiness, etc.
I think OS's should work the same way. Just like there is the W3C, I think there should be the OSC and decide upon a definate standard that all OS's should conform to.
Anyway, I also want peace on earth. Dream on.
messybuu
Reply #74 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:47 PM
Reply #74 Monday, October 7, 2002 10:47 PM
I think it would be rather hard to decide the standards, considering that the OSes work in very different quite often. For example, IIRC, UNIX is better at applications that use many processes while Windows is better at multi-threaded applications. Besides that, I think that there would be a huge need for more support. Think about all the problems people already have with programs that just run on Windows. Now, add in the Mac and all the different versions of Linux.
feline
Reply #75 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 8:04 AM
Reply #75 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 8:04 AM
paxx - I think there should be the OSC and decide upon a definate standard that all OS's should conform to.
paxx - Anyway, I also want peace on earth. Dream on.
feline makes an effort to stop agreeing with paxx so often
*sigh*
i give in
i like these ideas!
MessiahWWKD, such a mythical set of compatible OS's would have to mainly require new programs, but would also need a fair degree of backward compatability as well.
at work i use a windows workstation, and UNIX machies (via telnet) for most of my work.
there are lots of things i find UNIX is faster and better at, and other things i find windows to be better and faster at.
i want to be able to have a hybid of the bits that suit me and how i work from all over, all working together smoothly in one place.
oh yes, and piece on earth and love and respect for all people to!
paxx - Anyway, I also want peace on earth. Dream on.
feline makes an effort to stop agreeing with paxx so often
*sigh*
i give in
i like these ideas!
MessiahWWKD, such a mythical set of compatible OS's would have to mainly require new programs, but would also need a fair degree of backward compatability as well.
at work i use a windows workstation, and UNIX machies (via telnet) for most of my work.
there are lots of things i find UNIX is faster and better at, and other things i find windows to be better and faster at.
i want to be able to have a hybid of the bits that suit me and how i work from all over, all working together smoothly in one place.
oh yes, and piece on earth and love and respect for all people to!
Carlitus
Reply #76 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:50 PM
Reply #76 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 12:50 PM
Paxx dixit: 'No applications are truly cross platform. What I mean is take the same version of Office, or Photoshop or Dreamweaver or heck Windowblinds, and install it on a Mac, on a PC or on a Linux machine'
Yes, it's true. I use Internet Explorer on Mac and it's very different than Windows version (ai interface and rendering pages, specially Javascripts).
I 'use' Photoshop on both platforms too, and both versions are very similar (including responsiveness when you click layer effects panel); the major difference is the floating windows on Mac platforms and some direct shorcuts (ctrl instead command/apple).
I purchassed some time ago Animation:Master (a 3d program with Mac and Windows versions into the same cd, using the same license). In this case, the Mac version (only for OS9) is very slowly and interface navigation is very different; this is due to intense use of contextual menus on the WIndows version, and Macs are provided with one button mices (to show the contextual menus you need to click+ctrl, and Mac users don't like so much to use contextual menus).
IMO, the programs that have the same use and functionality on different platforms (not only on Windows, Mac and Linux) are Mozilla/Netscape and Blender3D (this program will be redistributed again this month)
Yes, it's true. I use Internet Explorer on Mac and it's very different than Windows version (ai interface and rendering pages, specially Javascripts).
I 'use' Photoshop on both platforms too, and both versions are very similar (including responsiveness when you click layer effects panel); the major difference is the floating windows on Mac platforms and some direct shorcuts (ctrl instead command/apple).
I purchassed some time ago Animation:Master (a 3d program with Mac and Windows versions into the same cd, using the same license). In this case, the Mac version (only for OS9) is very slowly and interface navigation is very different; this is due to intense use of contextual menus on the WIndows version, and Macs are provided with one button mices (to show the contextual menus you need to click+ctrl, and Mac users don't like so much to use contextual menus).
IMO, the programs that have the same use and functionality on different platforms (not only on Windows, Mac and Linux) are Mozilla/Netscape and Blender3D (this program will be redistributed again this month)
paxx
Reply #77 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 1:59 PM
Reply #77 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 1:59 PM
Yes, but Carlitus, I didn't mean software that have a Mac and a Windows version. What I mean is that all OSes should be able install the same program. The same installer file. Something I could install on my PC and that you could install on your Mac just the same. That way, all the softaware made for any plateform would be available for all.
bakerstreet
Reply #78 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 2:43 PM
Reply #78 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 2:43 PM
paxx: In order for that to happen, the OSs in question would have to share patented structure and code openly, or build a standard, black-box translation layer on top of what is already there, adding complexity and subtracting performance. Even then, the visual interface for the 'translator' would have to be a whole new beast, since the varied OS interfaces are all patented as well. You'd end up with a generic UI running over any number of differently functioning operating systems, which could be a nightmare if you think about it.
Anyway, no one is gonna share that much code, or provide a free-use alternative to the patented visual interface they have fought so hard to promote...
Anyway, no one is gonna share that much code, or provide a free-use alternative to the patented visual interface they have fought so hard to promote...
paxx
Reply #79 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:37 PM
Reply #79 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:37 PM
Yeah, but it seems to me that if WINE can almost achieve that already, it might be possible. But I understand it's just a dream.
bakerstreet
Reply #80 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:58 PM
Reply #80 Tuesday, October 8, 2002 3:58 PM
I dunno about much WINE, jsut that it kind of sits between the OS and the app, translating. I dunno how they make that work without stepping on MS's IP. I know that it is pretty touch-and-go, though, and with only one OS. It won't run Photoshop 7, anyway. (or I'd be talking to you from a linux box...)
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Reply #61 Friday, October 4, 2002 11:56 AM
I think that's the problem.. on both sides of the OS fence. If you don't have something nice, or at least educated, to say.. then don't say it. People choose their OS cuz it suits them best. End of story.