Where Is The Community?
Saturday, August 24, 2002 by 1Renegade | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Just a note, sharing an opinion mind you. Where is the community of artists, art-lovers, skinners, etc? As of late, seems everyone has had a chip the size of Texas, sorry Wise Old Man,on their shoulders when it comes to people that have difficulty comprehending what this site is all about. Rather than politely inform "newbies" of how this site works, and pleasantly leave it at that.....all this arguing going on. What REAL purpose does it serve in the end? I can understand the frustration, am familiar with the feeling it was "all about the money" at one point in time, but then I DID subscribe, and I DID purchase OD after purchasing WB. Call me "fat, dumb and happy"! For someone interested in the software, and interested in skinning, and interested in customizing their desktops to read all this bantering would surely have been a big turn off to me, not knowing what I know now about this very creative, informative and sharing community. I would think twice about participating in these "no-win" threads which seem to "lure" fine people to the level of the "shit-disturbers"........
Thanks
Thanks
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Frogboy
Reply #3 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:06 PM
Reply #3 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:06 PM
I agree. But there is a silver lining:
It does raise awareness. For years we've all thought of websites as these things that exist in a quasi-magical world of free. That websites must cost nothing to run and any costs they may run up can be easily paid for by banner ads.
On top of that, you have the view by some that by merely visiting a site you're doing it a favor.
These kinds of discussions, while repetitive do create an awareness that someone has to pay for these websites. WinCustomize has been paid for indirectly by individuals who buy WindowBlinds and Object Desktop and such.
Hence, this new awareness is helpful because suddenly it's not that these sites are paid for by some faceless corporations, but by other invididuals.
Moreover, it creates an awareness that for a community to function, there has to be some reciprication. The software guys make the skinnable widgets. The skinners make the skins and themes. The websites host those skins. All of these sides are giving something to the community.
But the software guys and the website guys have real world costs beyond time involved (Which there is plenty of that too like running into the office at 4am Christmas eve to reboot the server). They have to pay for bandwidth. They have to buy hardware to run this stuff.
The users have some level of reciprication. It's not that if they download a wallpaper they should feel obligated to give something back. But if they've downloaded tons of skins and themes then they should be giving something back at that point. They should be volunteering some time to help future skin authors solve problems or post helpful comments on their work letting them know they appreciate the time and effort they've made. They should register the software that they've obviously using a great deal of. They should try to do something to help the site whose bandwidth they've consumed.
Some people give lip service to the notion of a community. But often times what they really mean by community is other people whould do a bunch of work to benefit them and they should give nothing back.
Ideally, a website like Wincustomize shouldn't have to have a 100 megabit limit. People using tons of skins and themes should feel morally obligated to contribute something back well before they've gotten to that level (think of how much stuff you have to download to reach 100 MEGABYTES). Sadly though there is a percentage of users who don't see that.
So anyway, there's a silver lining. While repetitive and frustrating, at least awareness is being created that we're all in this together.
It does raise awareness. For years we've all thought of websites as these things that exist in a quasi-magical world of free. That websites must cost nothing to run and any costs they may run up can be easily paid for by banner ads.
On top of that, you have the view by some that by merely visiting a site you're doing it a favor.
These kinds of discussions, while repetitive do create an awareness that someone has to pay for these websites. WinCustomize has been paid for indirectly by individuals who buy WindowBlinds and Object Desktop and such.
Hence, this new awareness is helpful because suddenly it's not that these sites are paid for by some faceless corporations, but by other invididuals.
Moreover, it creates an awareness that for a community to function, there has to be some reciprication. The software guys make the skinnable widgets. The skinners make the skins and themes. The websites host those skins. All of these sides are giving something to the community.
But the software guys and the website guys have real world costs beyond time involved (Which there is plenty of that too like running into the office at 4am Christmas eve to reboot the server). They have to pay for bandwidth. They have to buy hardware to run this stuff.
The users have some level of reciprication. It's not that if they download a wallpaper they should feel obligated to give something back. But if they've downloaded tons of skins and themes then they should be giving something back at that point. They should be volunteering some time to help future skin authors solve problems or post helpful comments on their work letting them know they appreciate the time and effort they've made. They should register the software that they've obviously using a great deal of. They should try to do something to help the site whose bandwidth they've consumed.
Some people give lip service to the notion of a community. But often times what they really mean by community is other people whould do a bunch of work to benefit them and they should give nothing back.
Ideally, a website like Wincustomize shouldn't have to have a 100 megabit limit. People using tons of skins and themes should feel morally obligated to contribute something back well before they've gotten to that level (think of how much stuff you have to download to reach 100 MEGABYTES). Sadly though there is a percentage of users who don't see that.
So anyway, there's a silver lining. While repetitive and frustrating, at least awareness is being created that we're all in this together.
goodmorphing
Reply #4 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:32 PM
Reply #4 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:32 PM
I have to confess 
if I read in those threads I get upset and stay that way... so I won't open them anymore. I think I dropped out around comment 20. I hate when I get so mad I say an angry thing. But I know I might do that if I look any more.
I like this community because I feel welcomed here and people make me feel like a part of it even if I only just really like the stuff here (and the people). I would hate to lose that feeling.
if I read in those threads I get upset and stay that way... so I won't open them anymore. I think I dropped out around comment 20. I hate when I get so mad I say an angry thing. But I know I might do that if I look any more. I like this community because I feel welcomed here and people make me feel like a part of it even if I only just really like the stuff here (and the people). I would hate to lose that feeling.
WOM
Reply #5 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:40 PM
Reply #5 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:40 PM
It does make you mad GM. You cannot read them without getting upset. It bothers me to see as many people with the me, me mentality.
Jafo
Reply #6 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:51 PM
Reply #6 Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:51 PM
GM...WOM...it takes all sorts to make a community...some who understand intrinsically the necessities, sacrifices, efforts required to 'keep everyone kewl'...others need a little gentle reminder that when all is said and done, Life is like a sewer....what you get out of it depends on what you put into it...
davad70
Reply #7 Sunday, August 25, 2002 1:32 AM
Reply #7 Sunday, August 25, 2002 1:32 AM
As much as it bothers everyone when someone complains about the download cap, it bothers and saddens me more to see the wolf pack mentality of the people attacking them. As Brad has pointed out, the cap affects very few people around here. How many people visit this site each week? Out of those thousands and thousands of people, how many complain about the download cap? It seems to very few if you look at it that way. Therefore do we really need 20 people to pile on these people? If it was just a matter of educating them, is it necessary to belittle and insult them as so many people have done lately? I don't think it is and think it speaks poorly of us as a community.
Frogboy
Reply #8 Sunday, August 25, 2002 1:55 AM
Reply #8 Sunday, August 25, 2002 1:55 AM
I think what gets them flamed isn't so much that they object to the cap but that they try to position it as some sort of moral outrage.
I.e. thee guys who have downloaded megs and megs of skins without even registering the software they use them on, can't seem to be honest enough to say "Hey, I don't like having to pay for stuff" instead we get treated to yet another instamatic "Defender of skin artist rights!"
I think that brazen ingenousness is what ticks people off. People feel their intelligence being insulted when some kid tries to argue that what they're really upset about is how the poor artists are being exploited by evil website (yea right).
I know that is what annoys me. Along with the whole "you guys are just trying to make a quick buck.." type charge. As if the admins are driving around in Porsches or something.
I.e. thee guys who have downloaded megs and megs of skins without even registering the software they use them on, can't seem to be honest enough to say "Hey, I don't like having to pay for stuff" instead we get treated to yet another instamatic "Defender of skin artist rights!"
I think that brazen ingenousness is what ticks people off. People feel their intelligence being insulted when some kid tries to argue that what they're really upset about is how the poor artists are being exploited by evil website (yea right).
I know that is what annoys me. Along with the whole "you guys are just trying to make a quick buck.." type charge. As if the admins are driving around in Porsches or something.
goodmorphing
Reply #9 Sunday, August 25, 2002 2:20 AM
Reply #9 Sunday, August 25, 2002 2:20 AM
and it makes me mad when they call us names! it makes me mad when they call other people names who I know have contributed a lot to the community and who have I know are good and thoughtful people. and it makes me mad when i see the community peace and harmony threatened. and it makes me feel impotent that I am not brave enough or smart enough to do anything about it. And I don't know how to handle all that at once. That makes me mad, too. That I am not a better person with more answers.
bakerstreet
Reply #10 Sunday, August 25, 2002 3:00 AM
Reply #10 Sunday, August 25, 2002 3:00 AM
there is no 'community' without conflict. If members don't care enough to get angry every once in a while, then there is no cohesion to begin with.
I've flamed frogboy and SD many times, mainly during times I felt like I was on the outside looking in, as our buddies did today. As long as skinners get treated well, I'm not gonna gripe anymore. As far as I am concerned the unwashed, consuming hordes are what is destroying the internet, and SD can't throttle them enough.
Maybe we should ignore people like this, but there are a lot of wishy-washy souls everywhere that sit back and wait for a mob to join. Had people not flamed in favor of WC today, I believe devoutly there would have been dozens of "Yeah, you tell 'em!" posts. They see them get Bar-B-Qed right away and they lose their critical mass. Sure, it dragged on long after it was productive, but I have always enjoyed seeing an argument flicker and fade until the other person gets all teary eyed and whines. I'm just that kind of guy
I've flamed frogboy and SD many times, mainly during times I felt like I was on the outside looking in, as our buddies did today. As long as skinners get treated well, I'm not gonna gripe anymore. As far as I am concerned the unwashed, consuming hordes are what is destroying the internet, and SD can't throttle them enough.
Maybe we should ignore people like this, but there are a lot of wishy-washy souls everywhere that sit back and wait for a mob to join. Had people not flamed in favor of WC today, I believe devoutly there would have been dozens of "Yeah, you tell 'em!" posts. They see them get Bar-B-Qed right away and they lose their critical mass. Sure, it dragged on long after it was productive, but I have always enjoyed seeing an argument flicker and fade until the other person gets all teary eyed and whines. I'm just that kind of guy
Jafo
Reply #11 Sunday, August 25, 2002 3:04 AM
Reply #11 Sunday, August 25, 2002 3:04 AM
Porsche?......Porsche?......Have I missed out yet again?
Damn this tyranny of distance...
Davad, we cannot just sit idly by and have mis-informed accusations of wrong-doing on our part left un-challenged.
A third-party observer may just take the silence as contrition or acquiescence.
Someone calls me out for a perception of abuse of someone's rights or privileges and I'll jump to my own defence, and to that of my fellow Admins who, like me, are skinners just like the rest of you, that these 'DL-cap whingers' are claiming are being somehow maligned by the conduct of Wincustomize.com....[OK, convoluted sentence structure, but at least I followed it...I think]...
Damn this tyranny of distance...
Davad, we cannot just sit idly by and have mis-informed accusations of wrong-doing on our part left un-challenged.
A third-party observer may just take the silence as contrition or acquiescence.
Someone calls me out for a perception of abuse of someone's rights or privileges and I'll jump to my own defence, and to that of my fellow Admins who, like me, are skinners just like the rest of you, that these 'DL-cap whingers' are claiming are being somehow maligned by the conduct of Wincustomize.com....[OK, convoluted sentence structure, but at least I followed it...I think]...
goodmorphing
Reply #12 Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:25 AM
Reply #12 Sunday, August 25, 2002 4:25 AM
I know conflict is necessary. I am not good at it, that is all. I wish I were. Sometimes I am. Not often enough.
adni18
Reply #13 Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:08 AM
Reply #13 Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:08 AM
I feel sad about all those threads from people that are leaving the site and the answers from some members of Wincustomize are making me feel more sad!
The "mis-informed accusations" can be answered in more polite way.
The majority of people are not taking part in the message board, but this doesn't mean that they don't read it or they can't understand what is going on.
Yes, I know that we are not living in a perfect world, but we can make it better!
The "mis-informed accusations" can be answered in more polite way.
The majority of people are not taking part in the message board, but this doesn't mean that they don't read it or they can't understand what is going on.
Yes, I know that we are not living in a perfect world, but we can make it better!
Ande
Reply #14 Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:13 AM
Reply #14 Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:13 AM
The "DL cap Whinging" occurs fairly regularly and they are jumped on, with knives drawn, from great heights. It just does not looks good for a site of the calibre of Wincustomise to indulge in "thread rage". Perhaps someone could just post a bunch of links to the previous comments for the wingers and anybody else, to read at their leisure - and leave it at that. It's just a thought.
kith
Reply #15 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:28 AM
Reply #15 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:28 AM
They always start off by assuming that because they have been here a day or two that they have the right to post any kind of demands they wish. The post's are angry or inflammatory. And they continue even after they have been told the answer they do not want to hear. How many new people have been "piled on" for asking:
Hey I'm new here, I just tried to download another wall and I was told my account had hit it's limit. I was wondering what I could do to help out so I would be able to download more. I really like this site and I hope someone can help me...
But they never start that way.
Hey I'm new here, I just tried to download another wall and I was told my account had hit it's limit. I was wondering what I could do to help out so I would be able to download more. I really like this site and I hope someone can help me...
But they never start that way.
c242
Reply #16 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:35 AM
Reply #16 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:35 AM
I think it is really time for a master thread that always stays at the top
of the msg-board dealing with 2 matters :
'How do I use, what I have downloaded ?' and
'Why should I spend some money for this site ?'
I know, I am repeating this quite often, but well...
of the msg-board dealing with 2 matters :
'How do I use, what I have downloaded ?' and
'Why should I spend some money for this site ?'
I know, I am repeating this quite often, but well...
WOM
Reply #17 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:59 AM
Reply #17 Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:59 AM
It's probably a good idea c242 but if you notice that 1-5 people ask the same question it shows that they do not read the message board to see if the question is already answered. So they would not even read or see that.
Koasati
Reply #18 Sunday, August 25, 2002 10:43 AM
Reply #18 Sunday, August 25, 2002 10:43 AM
I suggested the sticky thread for the "How do I" threads a while back, I even emailed the janitor about it...... but I was ignored.
I guess it's better to have the board cluttered with redundant threads.
I guess it's better to have the board cluttered with redundant threads.
c242
Reply #19 Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:11 AM
Reply #19 Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:11 AM
Yeah, no offense here, but we've seen some good suggestions just being ignored... *ducks*
jcg
Reply #20 Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:30 AM
Reply #20 Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:30 AM
For me, anyway, I get upset for a few reasons:
1. Its the same senseless argument all the time, presented like the poster is the first person to come up with it.
2. The "exploitation" of the skinners didn't seem to bother them before they hit the cap. Its not like the cap is a state secret.
3. They never have the courage (with a few rare and notable exceptions) to come back and honestly debate their point.
4. The skinners are the ones who have the strongest disagreement with the poster's POV. You would think that would count for something.
5. The implication is that we skinners are too stupid to realize we are being exploited and need them to rise up on our behalf.
6. It doesn't cost anything except some of your time to avaid the cap.
All these points have been made before but that does't seem to impinge on their brains. If they once went on the message board while they were gobbbling up the BW they would have seen at least one thread similar to Citizen Pete's and by piping up then, ironically, avoided the cap.
End of Rant
AHHHH that was cathartic, now I can ignore these things
1. Its the same senseless argument all the time, presented like the poster is the first person to come up with it.
2. The "exploitation" of the skinners didn't seem to bother them before they hit the cap. Its not like the cap is a state secret.
3. They never have the courage (with a few rare and notable exceptions) to come back and honestly debate their point.
4. The skinners are the ones who have the strongest disagreement with the poster's POV. You would think that would count for something.
5. The implication is that we skinners are too stupid to realize we are being exploited and need them to rise up on our behalf.
6. It doesn't cost anything except some of your time to avaid the cap.
All these points have been made before but that does't seem to impinge on their brains. If they once went on the message board while they were gobbbling up the BW they would have seen at least one thread similar to Citizen Pete's and by piping up then, ironically, avoided the cap.
End of Rant
AHHHH that was cathartic, now I can ignore these things
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Reply #1 Saturday, August 24, 2002 10:47 PM