Is innovation on the rise in skinning?
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
https://www.wincustomize.com/index.asp?Cmd=full&NewsID=1124
In the news item, we were discussing whether we're in a new golden age. Craeonics, who is someone whose opinions I respect, disagrees. He wrote:
"If this were a golden age, I would see more and more new ideas. I don't see any new ideas, so therefore this is not a golden age. Quantity != quality, you know."
To which I replied:
I think you have a case of nostalgia there. The quality of the skins of 1999-2000 can't remotely compare to the quality of today.
If you don't see the innovation and new things going on, then my answer to that is that you're probably not trying out new software very much.
Let me just give you a handful of NEW things in August 2002 just from us:
1) WindowFX 2 beta is nearly here with skinnable shadows.
2) Said beta has a fully scriptable way of handling state transitions. That is, when I minimize/max a window, I can have any type of animation I want to creat emade.
3) ObjectBar 1.3 allows users to have hot keys for any bar or item. So if I want to have Ctrl-Alt-K bring up my MP3 player and Ctrl-Alt-V bring up Visual Studio and Ctrl-Alt-N bring up display properties I can do that.
4) ObjectBar 1.3 now lets you put in ActiveX controls right into bars! So I could embed a spreadsheet object or a media player movie window or whatever right into my bar.
5) The WinCustomize skin browser will be out shortly (v1.0) allowing people to apply skins and themes and icons and etc. right from the database directly. No having to download the thing and figure out how to install the skin and then go to th eprogrma and apply it.
6) WindowFX 2 beta now allows you to put LIGHT SOURCES of ANY COLOR anywhere on your screen and it will change the color of the border of your window based on the position and distance of that window to the light source.
These are just a few things off the top of my head since I worked with them this afternoon.
Plus there are other things in development such as the MCP which will provide an open standard for skin software developers to use it rather than create system hooks so that instead of your half dozen customizeable apps using their own system hooks (which can slow down the system to a degree) only one is used.
We're also working on a way to allow developers to access Direct3D APIS right from the 2D desktop so that all sorts of different effects can be used.
I am not at liberty to mention all the cool things going into WindowBlinds 4.0 for next year except to say that it's going to be incredibly cool.
WB 3.4 came out at the tail end of last month so you can see what was new there at: http://www.windowblinds.net/wb3/wb34.html
So these are just some things that have occurred in just the past month that are off the top of my head. If I did some digging I could make a much bigger list.
So if there was time past golden age that you feel compares, feel free to bring it up and provide a comparison. I see lots of new ideas and more than just new ideas, the realistic execution of them.
But what do you think? Those of you who have been around "since the beginning" have seen what I've seen and what Craeonics has seen. What do you think?
I would assert that Craeonics or a user who holds a similar opinion probably has a subset of customization software that he uses and has not seen updates to those. Kenray (Teknidermy) has vocally supported the various freeware programs available out there which these days don't seem to be moving forward as quickly as they once did. But he may not be watching what's been going on with Object Desktop or Hoverdesk or other types of customization software.
It is my belief that today, August 2002 that the software and the skins are experiencing an unprecedented level of quality and innovation when compared to previous times.
What is your view?
In the news item, we were discussing whether we're in a new golden age. Craeonics, who is someone whose opinions I respect, disagrees. He wrote:
"If this were a golden age, I would see more and more new ideas. I don't see any new ideas, so therefore this is not a golden age. Quantity != quality, you know."
To which I replied:
I think you have a case of nostalgia there. The quality of the skins of 1999-2000 can't remotely compare to the quality of today.
If you don't see the innovation and new things going on, then my answer to that is that you're probably not trying out new software very much.
Let me just give you a handful of NEW things in August 2002 just from us:
1) WindowFX 2 beta is nearly here with skinnable shadows.
2) Said beta has a fully scriptable way of handling state transitions. That is, when I minimize/max a window, I can have any type of animation I want to creat emade.
3) ObjectBar 1.3 allows users to have hot keys for any bar or item. So if I want to have Ctrl-Alt-K bring up my MP3 player and Ctrl-Alt-V bring up Visual Studio and Ctrl-Alt-N bring up display properties I can do that.
4) ObjectBar 1.3 now lets you put in ActiveX controls right into bars! So I could embed a spreadsheet object or a media player movie window or whatever right into my bar.
5) The WinCustomize skin browser will be out shortly (v1.0) allowing people to apply skins and themes and icons and etc. right from the database directly. No having to download the thing and figure out how to install the skin and then go to th eprogrma and apply it.
6) WindowFX 2 beta now allows you to put LIGHT SOURCES of ANY COLOR anywhere on your screen and it will change the color of the border of your window based on the position and distance of that window to the light source.
These are just a few things off the top of my head since I worked with them this afternoon.
Plus there are other things in development such as the MCP which will provide an open standard for skin software developers to use it rather than create system hooks so that instead of your half dozen customizeable apps using their own system hooks (which can slow down the system to a degree) only one is used.
We're also working on a way to allow developers to access Direct3D APIS right from the 2D desktop so that all sorts of different effects can be used.
I am not at liberty to mention all the cool things going into WindowBlinds 4.0 for next year except to say that it's going to be incredibly cool.
WB 3.4 came out at the tail end of last month so you can see what was new there at: http://www.windowblinds.net/wb3/wb34.html
So these are just some things that have occurred in just the past month that are off the top of my head. If I did some digging I could make a much bigger list.
So if there was time past golden age that you feel compares, feel free to bring it up and provide a comparison. I see lots of new ideas and more than just new ideas, the realistic execution of them.
But what do you think? Those of you who have been around "since the beginning" have seen what I've seen and what Craeonics has seen. What do you think?
I would assert that Craeonics or a user who holds a similar opinion probably has a subset of customization software that he uses and has not seen updates to those. Kenray (Teknidermy) has vocally supported the various freeware programs available out there which these days don't seem to be moving forward as quickly as they once did. But he may not be watching what's been going on with Object Desktop or Hoverdesk or other types of customization software.
It is my belief that today, August 2002 that the software and the skins are experiencing an unprecedented level of quality and innovation when compared to previous times.
What is your view?
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joetheblow
Reply #3 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:06 PM
Reply #3 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:06 PM
I have to admit that while the programs are better, I have not really seen anything new. I, in my comments to skinner, sometime congradulate them for exploring the transparentcies and making new shapes. Using new fonts, or making use of new areas to skin is nice but not innovative enough.
Where are the skins like Quake, or Blue Flame? What about making something like BlindJAFO X, Circus, Ditital Age, Document, Dusk, Galactic Civilizations, or Magnum? I know of these skins and others because I scouted out most popular areas of the site (and downloaded it!!) and I feel that as of late the design element has not been push very far. There are definaitly fine skns and fully realized works that take advantage of the new features of the program, but still where is the design push?
Where are the skins like Quake, or Blue Flame? What about making something like BlindJAFO X, Circus, Ditital Age, Document, Dusk, Galactic Civilizations, or Magnum? I know of these skins and others because I scouted out most popular areas of the site (and downloaded it!!) and I feel that as of late the design element has not been push very far. There are definaitly fine skns and fully realized works that take advantage of the new features of the program, but still where is the design push?
Doreen
Reply #4 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:43 PM
Reply #4 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:43 PM
I was thinking that some skinnable apps may have progressed so far in ease (in the skinning department) that the challenge is now gone for some people cuz in the past there was less documentation & it was harder therefore making it more challenging to skin...
but then again I don't play w/ desktop software half as much as I used to (I mainly play w/ pocket pc apps these days)
but then again I don't play w/ desktop software half as much as I used to (I mainly play w/ pocket pc apps these days)
bakerstreet
Reply #5 Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:09 AM
Reply #5 Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:09 AM
I agreee with both of you to a point. I see a great deal of *quality* but i don't see a lot of innovation. I think things are being well-made, but it has been a while since something shocked me with its freshness.
No doubt that will change when all the new features cement themselves in our minds. So far i think we are trying to 'port' our old ideas to new formats. The best features are really new, and I, for one, am having a hard time taking it all in. Now, one has to not only know how to do good work graphically, but they also have to be able to script well, and not the old LS scripts I am comfortable with.
You have to achieve a level of comfort with all the aspects of a format before you can be really creative with it. I'm getting there, and no doubt there are others in the same boat as me. I always avoided JS and xml in web design because I could do the same things with PHP, server-side (except all the tacky, stuff, which I don't do anyway...), now I have to know how to do all the tacky stuff to skin... lol.
No doubt that will change when all the new features cement themselves in our minds. So far i think we are trying to 'port' our old ideas to new formats. The best features are really new, and I, for one, am having a hard time taking it all in. Now, one has to not only know how to do good work graphically, but they also have to be able to script well, and not the old LS scripts I am comfortable with.
You have to achieve a level of comfort with all the aspects of a format before you can be really creative with it. I'm getting there, and no doubt there are others in the same boat as me. I always avoided JS and xml in web design because I could do the same things with PHP, server-side (except all the tacky, stuff, which I don't do anyway...), now I have to know how to do all the tacky stuff to skin... lol.
Old_Crab
Reply #6 Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:36 AM
Reply #6 Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:36 AM
Really ? Nah, everything seems to begin to look about the same. Blurry, grey and blue. Staid. The MS look. Sorry. Just a personal opinion. 
GreenReaper
Reply #7 Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:47 AM
Reply #7 Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:47 AM
Yeah, I agree. Frogboy: you and Grayhaze were talking about different things, I think. You, being at a company involved with the skinning products, see innovation in the products. Grayhaze is a skinner - he looks at the skins, and I think he has a reasonable case there.
Perhaps it is a question of volume - the innovation may be around, but there are a lot more skins/themes/etc being made now and so it's easy to see, say, 5 copies of the same skin style within a month and feel that originality has been lost. Which doesn't mean that the "skinning flame" has gone, but maybe it's been diluted a bit.
Perhaps it is a question of volume - the innovation may be around, but there are a lot more skins/themes/etc being made now and so it's easy to see, say, 5 copies of the same skin style within a month and feel that originality has been lost. Which doesn't mean that the "skinning flame" has gone, but maybe it's been diluted a bit.
GreenReaper
Reply #8 Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:48 AM
Reply #8 Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:48 AM
Whoops. Apologies to Crae and Grey for mixing them up there. I'm not quite awake yet. 
paxx
Reply #9 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:10 AM
Reply #9 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:10 AM
I think exactly the same way. While quality of execution is very high now, we can hardly see any really new skin anymore. Quality is indeed very high, but innovation and originality has been pretty stagnant for the past year. Most skins now look pretty much the same, with some color variations. We hardly see any Attacker, WBM IV, Aqualung, Thredz, GSXR, Micron, just to name a few, anymore.
No, this is not nostalgia. It seems the skinners have fallen into a mold and are either hesitant or incapable of getting out of it. They have gained great experience in the past years and have perfected their technique to perfection, except, it seems that in doing so they have specialised in a specific style.
Look at the variety of styles there were 1 to 2 years ago, and look at what is made today. It seems pretty obvious to me.
But of course, I am also guilty on all counts, I really haven't made anything myself in the past year. Maybe I'll have to work on that...
No, this is not nostalgia. It seems the skinners have fallen into a mold and are either hesitant or incapable of getting out of it. They have gained great experience in the past years and have perfected their technique to perfection, except, it seems that in doing so they have specialised in a specific style.
Look at the variety of styles there were 1 to 2 years ago, and look at what is made today. It seems pretty obvious to me.
But of course, I am also guilty on all counts, I really haven't made anything myself in the past year. Maybe I'll have to work on that...
davad70
Reply #10 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:36 AM
Reply #10 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:36 AM
I agree that the quality and innovation are on the rise in skinnable apps, but not in the skins themselves. That's why I haven't been doing any skins lately. I admit that I've fallen into a "rut" and and have had a hard time coming up with original ideas for skins. Therefore, I've decided that unless I can make a skin that will truly "wow" myself and others, there's no need to make it. I think another factor is that originality is not really rewarded with nice comments and downloads. I don't think most users want something totally different than the norm. They want retreads of skins/icons/themes that have already been done. A good case in point is aleksyandr's Plan R skin. Look at it and check out the lack of comments/mediocre rating that it received. Perhaps it's just a case of different strokes for different strokes though.
paxx
Reply #11 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:56 AM
Reply #11 Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:56 AM
I agree that Aleksyandr is one of the rare skinners that actually puts an effort into originallity and innovation. Just look at his Quantum skin. Now that really stands out from the "norm". There is nothing else like it.
bakerstreet
Reply #12 Thursday, August 22, 2002 9:35 AM
Reply #12 Thursday, August 22, 2002 9:35 AM
One problem is the contrary-ness of the audience. "Innovation" is difficult when people are so critical of all things 'busy'. Half the users want animations and flashy effects, and the other half are like techno-amish, shunning anything that gets more than a year or two more advanced than command lines. I have tried to do some things lately that are different without being flashy, but the mechanics just don't seem to be there for much behind-the-UI usefulness. We've reached a point that 'style' just doesn't carry a skin. I am looking pretty hard at developing an app or two simply because I can't do what I want.
Anybody messed with Everquest yet? I am 'on-the-wagon' at present, but I heard that the UI is very, very skinnable now. I would try it, but if I started playint again I wouldn't be skinnin for long
Anybody messed with Everquest yet? I am 'on-the-wagon' at present, but I heard that the UI is very, very skinnable now. I would try it, but if I started playint again I wouldn't be skinnin for long
migellito
Reply #13 Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:43 AM
Reply #13 Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:43 AM
heh.. techno-amish. excellent phrase, and i know exactly what you mean 
yes, the apps are definitely powerhouses now. very mature. i think that quantifies the current period better than golden age - mature.
i guess i see a 'golden-age' as more an early period of limited public knowledge and participation.. i probably get that from comics references though.. hehe.
yes, the apps are definitely powerhouses now. very mature. i think that quantifies the current period better than golden age - mature.
i guess i see a 'golden-age' as more an early period of limited public knowledge and participation.. i probably get that from comics references though.. hehe.
treetog
Reply #14 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:03 AM
Reply #14 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:03 AM
Well, what I can say is, taking windowblinds as an example, back in 1999/2000 we had around 400/500 skins done maximum and it was easier at that time to execute new ideas.
Today we have almost 2000 skins done ( just Alexandrie and me allready made over 100 wb skins) almost every kind of titlebar button or scroll bar was allready made, so it becames harder and harder to find new things that was not done yet.
I remember that I used to creat a new template in a few minutes, today I stay days making one, every time I think on something, I say "hey! something similar was allready used"
I don't think we are less creative today, the thing is, everything was allready used, metal, wood, glass, plastic, titanium, gel, ivory, marble, stone, etc...
Boy! every new skin is a much bigger chalange those days.
btw...I just made a skin using carbon fiber as the base material, it cames not bad, I think.
Today we have almost 2000 skins done ( just Alexandrie and me allready made over 100 wb skins) almost every kind of titlebar button or scroll bar was allready made, so it becames harder and harder to find new things that was not done yet.
I remember that I used to creat a new template in a few minutes, today I stay days making one, every time I think on something, I say "hey! something similar was allready used"
I don't think we are less creative today, the thing is, everything was allready used, metal, wood, glass, plastic, titanium, gel, ivory, marble, stone, etc...
Boy! every new skin is a much bigger chalange those days.
btw...I just made a skin using carbon fiber as the base material, it cames not bad, I think.
c242
Reply #15 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:13 AM
Reply #15 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:13 AM
Speaking of innovative skins : I really would love an update of the Thredz WB-skin for XP.
WOM
Reply #16 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:14 AM
Reply #16 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:14 AM
I agree with treetog. It's not that the past skinners were any better than todays skinners(not to say they wern't) but just how many ways can you make a square or rectangle look? Color, minor tweeks here and there and the wallpaper is about all thats left.IMHO.
werewolf
Reply #17 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:24 AM
Reply #17 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:24 AM
well, hmmm new ideas...Essorant did the min/max buttons in a nice new way (devoir)...phatalphyre, too, did a new cool looking titlebar...starone is doing some very interesting things, specially her last one (liquidaqua) and, I'm really sorry I can't find this guys name, someone has done some really cool things to the startbar etc with swords and transparency effects,etc. Alexandyr (hope I spelled your name right has done some very cool things lately. There are a few other out there too that I wish I could think of as examples of cutting edge. Innovation is out there, it has to be accepted by a wider audience.
has done some very cool things lately. There are a few other out there too that I wish I could think of as examples of cutting edge. Innovation is out there, it has to be accepted by a wider audience.
Doomgaze
Reply #18 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:45 AM
Reply #18 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:45 AM
When you compare 99/2k to now, you have to include the fact that everyone and their brother wanted to clone every other OS/etc.
We had all the enlightenment copies, KDE copies, Gnome copies etc.
You reach a critical mass with all of that before people collectively run out of ideas, then the real skinners start showing their stuff.
Yeah sure, we're seeing lots of OS-X clones etc right now, but thats starting to slow down. There's only so many ways you can do it.
So then the origionality comes through.
I don't think the skill and beauty wasn't there then, but the fact that it was overshadowed by the million and one other skin copies that were rampant at that time.
We had all the enlightenment copies, KDE copies, Gnome copies etc.
You reach a critical mass with all of that before people collectively run out of ideas, then the real skinners start showing their stuff.
Yeah sure, we're seeing lots of OS-X clones etc right now, but thats starting to slow down. There's only so many ways you can do it.
So then the origionality comes through.
I don't think the skill and beauty wasn't there then, but the fact that it was overshadowed by the million and one other skin copies that were rampant at that time.
Frogboy
Reply #19 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:47 AM
Reply #19 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:47 AM
I think if you seperate the software from the content itself then things get a little bit murky.
I look at it as the innovation in software is increasing rapidly.
But the content (the skins, icons, themes) is more of a constant absolute number but seems smaller because there are so many skins.
You guys know I'm a stats nut, I've kept track of the average # of WindowBlinds skins per day since 1999. In the old days, the average was around .7 new sknis per day. So far n 2002 it's averaged around 2 skins per day. So we see 3 times as many new skins being made but the ones that are legitimately innovative have remained at the same level.
I do agree that there seems to have been a real drop in trying new things in skins. Remember "Doreen's TV"? Or "Floppy"? Those were really innovative.
But I also think that the amount of work that goes into making a modern skin has increased to the point where fewer people are doing it. Making a good new skin can take 30 to 40 hours. Whereas in the WindowBlinds 1 day I could crank out several skins per week because there wasn't nearly as much to do. I think another issue is the desire to be popular. The more conservative the skin, the more popular it seems to be. So many skinners make the choice between originality and popularity and popularity wins out.
On the other hand, there is a lot of interesting things going on with DesktopX themes and objects.
That said, I still think there is a lot of nostalgia involved. If you went through the entire year of say 1999 or 2000 I don't think you would be able to find MORE really original things than you see in a year now. I'm not even sure you would be able to find more than you saw in the GUI Olympics.
I look at it as the innovation in software is increasing rapidly.
But the content (the skins, icons, themes) is more of a constant absolute number but seems smaller because there are so many skins.
You guys know I'm a stats nut, I've kept track of the average # of WindowBlinds skins per day since 1999. In the old days, the average was around .7 new sknis per day. So far n 2002 it's averaged around 2 skins per day. So we see 3 times as many new skins being made but the ones that are legitimately innovative have remained at the same level.
I do agree that there seems to have been a real drop in trying new things in skins. Remember "Doreen's TV"? Or "Floppy"? Those were really innovative.
But I also think that the amount of work that goes into making a modern skin has increased to the point where fewer people are doing it. Making a good new skin can take 30 to 40 hours. Whereas in the WindowBlinds 1 day I could crank out several skins per week because there wasn't nearly as much to do. I think another issue is the desire to be popular. The more conservative the skin, the more popular it seems to be. So many skinners make the choice between originality and popularity and popularity wins out.
On the other hand, there is a lot of interesting things going on with DesktopX themes and objects.
That said, I still think there is a lot of nostalgia involved. If you went through the entire year of say 1999 or 2000 I don't think you would be able to find MORE really original things than you see in a year now. I'm not even sure you would be able to find more than you saw in the GUI Olympics.
Doomgaze
Reply #20 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:51 AM
Reply #20 Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:51 AM
The problem with the early days with "Doreen's TV or "Floppy" was the fact that people were pushing things and testing things out. And in general having fun. (not that its not fun now)
Now we're seeing a bigger push towards useability with beauty combined. (which naturally don't go together well)
Now we're seeing a bigger push towards useability with beauty combined. (which naturally don't go together well)
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Reply #1 Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:45 PM
Some of this is down to old 'theme masters' moving on to other things and the newer, OTS-inspired users who are yet to flex creative 'muscle'.
The proggies in general are all far, far more advanced from their humble beginnings [even IF I still do WB skins by hand...SkinStudio still loses me], but often the resulting skins are just 'more of the same'.
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be....