Good try....

Now, whilst you are feeling safe in the US....remember you are 9 times more likely to die by gun in the US than in Australia.....

...and 5 years after the US did SFA about gun control how are the US crime stats chugging along?  Oh, that's right....what the OP is all about.

Clearly it really IS all about penis size ....bragging rights for owning semi-autos.

YOU HAVE NO LEGITIMATE REASON for owning weapons designed for WAR.

Unless you're talking about service rifles.....because you are serving.

Which you are not.

No problem Monk. I will agree that the basic use of a gun is to kill...but it has evolved over time for other uses...such as hunting and skeet shooting for instance. Unfortunately there are some who have no respect for life and use it specifically to kill. And as I said before as well...not everyone uses a gun to kill unless specifically for protection...and if that happens I think they have proven the point for needing a gun...they obviously lived in a condition that called for ownership of a gun...believe it or not it does happen. Now...in a perfect world we would have no need for a gun...that's a world I would love to live in...but that world does not exist...when it does I'll one the first one to cheer. And the problem has existed for far longer than people will even acknowledge...it's called war. But because we don't actually see it and it's not in our neighborhood we just ignore it. But I'd bet the people dying as a result of it wishes we wouldn't.

It you have someone living in an area that is violent...and because of economic reason they cannot relocate themselves away from the violence...would you deny them a gun for protection...or would you rather they became a victim? And that scenario exist for a lot of people. None of this is as simple as some think it is.

I would prefer we lived in a non violent world. Until the human factor is addressed the problem will remain.

Seriously...who did I insult..point it out. Your grabbing at straws now.

Indeed... and glad to see you again. Yes, I can't fathom why people can't grasp that guns cause fear. Even when the owner is perfectly stable and knowledgeable in safety.

The problem is that they stolen. The owner could go bonkers... or those surrounding him/her. All I am saying is FAR tighter controls on sales and ownership. Far better access to mental health. Far better surveillance. The lethality of guns dictates that. And folks - please - no car examples.

As it is, it's the wild west... and that has to change. 

@Giz: Explained it to you on the phone. Remember how we got acquainted?

There is no place in private hands for self-loading weapons of any sort.

If it's again this American excuse to self-protect then learn to aim.  ONE bullet in a gun in the hands of a COMPETENT person is all the deterrent you SHOULD ever need.

Anyone who cannot hit what they aim at with one bullet should never be given a gun.

When guns are restricted to single-action it makes it oh-so-tedious to engage in mass murder.

Web....choose your pick, [link] and no, the US isn't top of the list....but it ain't on the bottom either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

For all of the back and forth in this thread.  I would like some american (any pro-gun-toting american) to clearly point out to me how citizen gun ownership (particularily automatic weapons) in the US makes for a safer public and why if that is true, there are exponentially more gun-related deaths per capita in the US compared to any other first-world nations?

Why do australians (as evidenced in this thread) and canadians not require a machinegun to feel safe?  Why would I (a canadian) feel nervous if I knew my neighbors thought it necessary to own a gun (nevermind an arsenal as many americans do) and I would in fact feel I should move away.  I would (and most canadians would) feel MORE threatened by having a gun-toting neighbor in the neighborhood not the other way around!

I dont think any of us mentioned needing an assault rifle or a machine gun.

I see none of you ever talk about all the BAD people.. with illegal guns, that gun control will do NOTHING about.

Stay in your peaceful little neighborhoods, and water your flowers, smoke ur peace pipes and pretend there arent people out here in the real world getting slaughtered by the thousands by people with illegal weapons.

And when one day you are approached by one of these characters, car jacking, home invasion, robbery , rape, kidnapping etc.. you can preach at THEM about laying down their arms... right before they put a bullet in your head.

Better still, go preach at all the fathers of murdered daughters and sons and wives and mothers and fathers.

If it can happen to them, it can happen to me, and my family.. and yours. I would just like to maintain MY RIGHT to defend..US.

You.. can do what you.. want...Just leave MY rights.. alone.

Don't even get me started on the need for protection if a breakdown of society comes about, and the food starts running out.

and I think most Americans want the opportunity to defend themselves with a gun. I can understand why you guys would think this way. I can't see any talk about gun control taking away the 'right' and it never will. The difference is what the protection should be.

It's a debate worth having in the US, we did, everyone was prepared to compromise for the good of the community and we are happy with the results.

the_Monk ... back when I was 15 - 16 I was in a rifle club.... open range shooting ....303s and 762s ....all were bolt action single shot...and I could hit the side of a barn.... I managed an inner and 11 bulls at 600yards, aka 'a possible' ...even got a crappy plaque for it.  I used to teach younger kids to shoot, and yes, I too had a healthy respect for them.

I did fire one 'automatic'...a .22 target pistol, again on a range.... but that's how they came...self-loading.... pretty bloody useless for "self defense" as the trigger pressure was so light it'd probably go off in a light breeze....hitting everything OTHER than the intended target.

I've never seen a gun of any kind ever outside a rifle range or out of the hands of a Government authorised person [police/army/etc].

Australia is about as non-gun as you can get.  Yes, there are criminals who will have them....

....but there are also Police who do have them.

In our [sane] world that's all that matters...

 @vStyler

I have living relatives in serveral major european cities, several canadian cities, and a few brave ones living in the states.  None of my relatives have ever seen gun-violence (or any of the violent acts you described) save for something on television and my non-US relatives, like me don't have to live in fear of it possibly happening.  The relatives in the US however are afraid of gun-violence potentially happening to them eventhough they live in similar neighborhoods to those the rest of us live in.  Someone should really try to answer the "why" of that for themselves and just maybe there would be some real change in the US for once.

Incorrect, John. Read the first few pages. Lightstar had a particular way of dealing with that.

Go preach to the parents of the dead in all the attacks... Tell them how guns made them safer. For your own safety... Do it from a significant distance.

Fact is.. There are examples of both points of view.... no one can win this argument.

Your right.. guns didn't make it safer for those kids.. because no one around them.. had one.

They were unprotected... from guns, knives, bombs, poison, gas, rocks and sugar.

Agree completely. 

My issue isn't with guns being used appropriately (ie. police, military, even farmers for pest control etc.) it is (like you also stated) with auto-loading guns, ammo that is capable of busting through armour and weapons made availbable to the general public that are known to be easily modifyable.  The public citizen should not have the right to possess such weaponry nor should ANYONE have the right to a CONCEALED weapon?  Seriously?  That's just crazy-talk...

Couple that with having that type of "killing hardware" so readily in your homes......the place your children should be able to refer to as their sanctuary.  How an american parent can EVER explain why daddy/mommy have various handguns, shotguns, high-powered rifles, semi-auto assault rifles, night-vision scopes, kevlar vests and disintegrating-vest-penetrating ammunition in their sanctuary and not hang their head in shame while doing so is beyond me.  How are those children ever to grow up without seeing everything tainted by fear........those children don't stand a chance.........it is seriously enough to make one cry.

You'll never understand at that rate, John. If there were proper controls and mentally ill people got treatment they wouldn't need protection... wait a minute... wasn't it you who just got finished opposing protection because it would be expensive and because "it would turn schools into armed camps"? Can't have it both/either/or any way according to you...

Right... it's all about sour grapes. How did I know? 0 empathy.

Someone could win that argument......if you gun-toting americans would choose to listen to them........the children.

If the powers-that-be in the US keep thinking the way you so obviously do, I fear your nation is fated to have that kind of violence continue indefinitely.  One can only hope that those children will not have died in vain.  I hope and pray that your nation wakes up and really sees what guns and more guns have and threaten to continue to do to your country.

I meant.. a Teacher.. not a guard.

and please don't tell me.. "I don't understand' I understand.. I just don't agree.

We cant stop the guns, anymore than we can stop the drugs.

Keep well wishing and dreaming.

Yes we would all love to live in Utopia.. unfortunately most of us live in the real United States.. where guns, and bad guys will.. always be.

If you think you can stop it thru legislation, then keep thinking that. I think it's unrealistic.

Take away all the big guns from being bought.. and the end result is.. the bad guys are the only ones with big guns.

Take away all the guns from being bought.. same result.

And If you destroy every gun on the planet.. which, of course, will never happen... People will just use other, perhaps worse methods to kill others.

Timothy Mcveigh didn't use a gun.

I'm done here .. no.. really.

I'd hang my head in shame if I had to look down at a dead family members body...that is provided I survived...after a home invasion knowing if I only had a gun I could have stopped it and they could have gone on to live a long and healthy life. Not everyone is running and hiding from the boogeyman...they take measure to insure their home remains a sanctuary. And until we can rid the world of violent criminals people will do what is necessary to protect their family. And not everyone that has guns is going to expose their child to them...responsible people will store them away out of sight and out of reach. They are not toys and should be treated accordingly. The whole point is to protect ones child from certain and very real dangers in the world. And if you live in a safe place that wouldn't mean anything to you...not everyone does. So again we can go around and around over this issue and in the end we can all just agree to disagree.

Close enough. Be afraid.....be very afraid.

Now you want teachers to be packing heat in school?!!!! WTF!!!