Why Bother?
Wednesday, July 17, 2002 by UBoB | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
The rating system is EXTREMELY inconsistent. So, until the consistency improves, I have removed all of my skins. Bye!
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bmetelsky
Reply #42 Friday, July 19, 2002 10:27 PM
Reply #42 Friday, July 19, 2002 10:27 PM
And removing skins does exactly what?
I was told a long time ago, in a certain organization, that if I did not like what was happenning there I should stick around and make it better. Just my two cents.
I was told a long time ago, in a certain organization, that if I did not like what was happenning there I should stick around and make it better. Just my two cents.
WOM
Reply #43 Friday, July 19, 2002 11:06 PM
Reply #43 Friday, July 19, 2002 11:06 PM
I agree with you bmetelsky, but each person has to do what they think is best for them. Some will stay and fight and some will not. Maybe change will happen and maybe not. I feel you must try.
UBoB
Reply #44 Saturday, July 20, 2002 12:34 AM
Reply #44 Saturday, July 20, 2002 12:34 AM
Removing skins was not *meant* to *do* anything. Because of what happened, I do not intend on coming back here very often, if at all. I removed the skins because they were mine to remove...Period! Leaving them without me being here to keep an eye on them ran the risk of them some day being ripped by some unscrupulous person. I simply was eliminating that possiblity.
I won't be back. I don't care to "make it better" because, quite frankly, I don't care if it ever is better.
Now, can we give this a rest. It's over. I'm finished here.
I won't be back. I don't care to "make it better" because, quite frankly, I don't care if it ever is better.
Now, can we give this a rest. It's over. I'm finished here.
DavidK
Reply #46 Saturday, July 20, 2002 2:14 AM
Reply #46 Saturday, July 20, 2002 2:14 AM
I'm sorry to hear that too. I wish I knew what happened so we'd have a chance of addressing the issue...
bmetelsky
Reply #47 Saturday, July 20, 2002 3:32 AM
Reply #47 Saturday, July 20, 2002 3:32 AM
motion,
I do appreciate your art. I can appreciate also your anger or frustration or whatever it is that is creating your current desire to "pack up your bags and leave". I just believe that there are usually other options available to resolve problems.
I do appreciate your art. I can appreciate also your anger or frustration or whatever it is that is creating your current desire to "pack up your bags and leave". I just believe that there are usually other options available to resolve problems.
migellito
Reply #48 Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:03 AM
Reply #48 Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:03 AM
agreed david. i'm definitely curious/concerned about what brought on the decision. unfortunately though, it's apparently not a pressing enough issue to spend time delving into.
as far as some of the other comments in the thread about the system's use, i think it's important to realize that it's perfectly legitimate for one of your peers to think your work deserves a low rating. we've been through the ratings discussion many times, and every time it basically distills down to one thing. those who disapprove of it do so basically because they don't think it's nice to give people low marks. of course there are many side issues introduced, but that's the core of it.
speaking for myself and my own work, personally, if any of you who have enough experience in the field of gui skinning to be able to rate here feel my work deserves a low rating, it is my responsibility to swallow it, accept it as the informed opinion of my peers, not get too worked up about it, and keep going. just because i like what i did, i worked hard on it, and i'm proud enough of it to post it here doesn't mean it's good, and doesn't mean you're going to like it. i'd rather have an honest opinion than somebody buttering me up or 'being nice' by padding the rating. if i'm going to let that bother me, i'd better drop any notions of art right now.
as far as some of the other comments in the thread about the system's use, i think it's important to realize that it's perfectly legitimate for one of your peers to think your work deserves a low rating. we've been through the ratings discussion many times, and every time it basically distills down to one thing. those who disapprove of it do so basically because they don't think it's nice to give people low marks. of course there are many side issues introduced, but that's the core of it.
speaking for myself and my own work, personally, if any of you who have enough experience in the field of gui skinning to be able to rate here feel my work deserves a low rating, it is my responsibility to swallow it, accept it as the informed opinion of my peers, not get too worked up about it, and keep going. just because i like what i did, i worked hard on it, and i'm proud enough of it to post it here doesn't mean it's good, and doesn't mean you're going to like it. i'd rather have an honest opinion than somebody buttering me up or 'being nice' by padding the rating. if i'm going to let that bother me, i'd better drop any notions of art right now.
Lecrayon
Reply #49 Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:25 AM
Reply #49 Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:25 AM
But Migellito, not everybody is "skilled" enough to set a rate. I doubt even if a skilled one is able to either. I don't like Pollock (I believe you have written something about it in another thread). I think it's just throwing with blacks, but hey I understand it's art. Therefore I give Pollock a very low rating. The core is not the low ratings, the core is the display on WC. A low rating will filter the work. You as moderators might think of someone's others work as I think of Pollock. If you give me a 1, fine, but it should be able to be displayed for everyone that visits. I have read so many times that people don't look at ratings, they download when they like it. And just as in the other bother thread, this is the end to my contribution about ratings. I am with Davad70, you can give suggestions here but no one of the leading figures will even bother and just go on. So trying hard to make something better regarding to this company, I won't bother. And you have a statement by motion. If that's not enough to seriously reconsider how to handle ratings, well it shows the blunt arrogance. But again it's not my company.
Jafo
Reply #50 Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:16 AM
Reply #50 Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:16 AM
Lecrayon, it's not 'blunt arrogance' to be left in the dark about what 'exactly' caused a person to remove his work. It must [I assume] have been a specific incident that broke the camel's back, but it's pretty unfair to be bearing the brunt of this dissent and not be informed of the specifics.
How do we deal with motion's concerns/problems when he himself clearly is uninterested in a resolution, just taking his bat and ball and leaving?
Anyone and/or all of the Admins here are approachable directly for problems/help/resolutions/whatever.....if there's a 'personal issue' driving you away....at least contact them...
How do we deal with motion's concerns/problems when he himself clearly is uninterested in a resolution, just taking his bat and ball and leaving?
Anyone and/or all of the Admins here are approachable directly for problems/help/resolutions/whatever.....if there's a 'personal issue' driving you away....at least contact them...
Koasati
Reply #51 Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:28 AM
Reply #51 Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:28 AM
if any of you who have enough experience in the field of gui skinning to be able to rate here feel my work deserves a low rating, it is my responsibility to swallow it, accept it as the informed opinion of my peers
migelltio....the problem here is, all one has to do now is spend $20 for a subscription, and start rating skins. You don't even need to have ever opened a graphics program. $$$ is all it takes to become a "peer".
I do agree with you in this statement
i'd rather have an honest opinion than somebody buttering me up or 'being nice' by padding the rating. if i'm going to let that bother me, i'd better drop any notions of art right now.
I'm no artist, just a skinner, but the concept is the same.
migelltio....the problem here is, all one has to do now is spend $20 for a subscription, and start rating skins. You don't even need to have ever opened a graphics program. $$$ is all it takes to become a "peer".
I do agree with you in this statement
i'd rather have an honest opinion than somebody buttering me up or 'being nice' by padding the rating. if i'm going to let that bother me, i'd better drop any notions of art right now.
I'm no artist, just a skinner, but the concept is the same.
Lecrayon
Reply #52 Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:11 AM
Reply #52 Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:11 AM
Jafo, there have been some threads around about ratings during my "participation" times. From those I have understood quite well that it is a long time discussed issue. I, for one, believe the person who writes:
The rating system is EXTREMELY inconsistent. So, until the consistency improves, I have removed all of my skins. Bye... what more explanation do you want? Why search for other issues that caused this. It is stated open and frankly, it's the rating system. If you search for something else, maybe you should accept you live a bit in denial here.
The rating system is EXTREMELY inconsistent. So, until the consistency improves, I have removed all of my skins. Bye... what more explanation do you want? Why search for other issues that caused this. It is stated open and frankly, it's the rating system. If you search for something else, maybe you should accept you live a bit in denial here.
Lecrayon
Reply #53 Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:17 AM
Reply #53 Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:17 AM
I actually don't know why I keep commenting on all this. It just sickens me to the bone. I will restrain myself from the message boards. The stance is so obvious. No further comments.
WOM
Reply #54 Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:24 AM
Reply #54 Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:24 AM
I guess you could leave the ratings upto the moderators! Boy, what a burdon they would have.
UBoB
Reply #55 Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:14 PM
Reply #55 Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:14 PM
I might have said that was a viable solution once upon a time, until you realize that the "straw that broke the camel's back" as it were, was a rating by one such moderator.
Looking at the big picture, the problem is not with one specific rating, it is with the rating system in general. It gives too much power to one group of people. This group is initially allowed to arbitrarily rate our creations without any regard for the basic criteria set forth in the rules.
No, leaving it up to the moderators is not the solution. "Fixing" or "revamping" the rating system is not the solution. The solution is to abolish the rating system altogether. It serves no real purpose except to afford this "group" of people a feeling that they have power. And they do *love* to feel powerful.
The end result is a feeling of ill will, a continuing battle over something that will never change, and most alarming, the gradual alienation of the WinCustomize and Stardock customer base.
Looking at the big picture, the problem is not with one specific rating, it is with the rating system in general. It gives too much power to one group of people. This group is initially allowed to arbitrarily rate our creations without any regard for the basic criteria set forth in the rules.
No, leaving it up to the moderators is not the solution. "Fixing" or "revamping" the rating system is not the solution. The solution is to abolish the rating system altogether. It serves no real purpose except to afford this "group" of people a feeling that they have power. And they do *love* to feel powerful.
The end result is a feeling of ill will, a continuing battle over something that will never change, and most alarming, the gradual alienation of the WinCustomize and Stardock customer base.
DavidK
Reply #56 Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:42 PM
Reply #56 Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:42 PM
Every site has some form of ratings. It's a necessary part of dealing with a database driven site. Especially with a database as large as this one.
motion, (and everyone else) please realize that there are several things that can affect your ratings. There was a bug in the system for a while that seemed to be causing problems, there are always going to be people that secretly take pleasure in screwing up someone's ratings and there are several admins all looking at the piece as it comes through trying to reach a consensus on whether it gets posted.
If you ever feel a rating is lower than it deserves to be you can contact an admin to have it evaluated and corrected. I have done this many times for artists that wrote to me pointing out an unfair rating.
I have no idea what "group" of people you are referring to motion. There is no such group here that I know of. It certainly isn't a lust for power over your fate that makes me help out here. It's because I want to help and feel proud to be part of the team that keeps this site working. Every admin at this site takes the responsibility seriously and tries to be fair and consistent.
The filter of 4 for viewing wallpapers has come up again and we've been accussed of using that as some sort of tool of vengance. For the record, I have never rated a submission that got posted lower than 4 because I feel if it's being posted it should be able to be viewed by anyone. If someone else rates it lower because they feel that's what it deserves, that's their right to do so. If you feel it's unfair, contact an admin. Remember, the filter can be adjusted in your profile and most people that regularly visit this site have probably done so.
motion - I still have no idea what happened that made you so upset.
motion, (and everyone else) please realize that there are several things that can affect your ratings. There was a bug in the system for a while that seemed to be causing problems, there are always going to be people that secretly take pleasure in screwing up someone's ratings and there are several admins all looking at the piece as it comes through trying to reach a consensus on whether it gets posted.
If you ever feel a rating is lower than it deserves to be you can contact an admin to have it evaluated and corrected. I have done this many times for artists that wrote to me pointing out an unfair rating.
I have no idea what "group" of people you are referring to motion. There is no such group here that I know of. It certainly isn't a lust for power over your fate that makes me help out here. It's because I want to help and feel proud to be part of the team that keeps this site working. Every admin at this site takes the responsibility seriously and tries to be fair and consistent.
The filter of 4 for viewing wallpapers has come up again and we've been accussed of using that as some sort of tool of vengance. For the record, I have never rated a submission that got posted lower than 4 because I feel if it's being posted it should be able to be viewed by anyone. If someone else rates it lower because they feel that's what it deserves, that's their right to do so. If you feel it's unfair, contact an admin. Remember, the filter can be adjusted in your profile and most people that regularly visit this site have probably done so.
motion - I still have no idea what happened that made you so upset.
Lecrayon
Reply #57 Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:19 PM
Reply #57 Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:19 PM
DavidK...oh I restrain yes ....read again what motion says...denial denial...*firmly lips together*
UBoB
Reply #58 Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:58 PM
Reply #58 Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:58 PM
Excuse me for not repling sooner. My wife felt I had been sitting behind this computer long enough and she wanted me to start helping a bit with the household chores. She had a point.
David, here it is in a nutshell.
I uploaded a skin that was part of a series. Previous uploads of the skin had received initial ratings ranging from 6 to 7. The new upload received a 4.
I know, and I understand that the default rating is 6 for times when a moderator is unavailable to rate the skin. However, the 7 and the 4 both had to be assigned by someone. (I did check to make sure these ratings were not influenced by other members. The number of ratings at the time of these two postings was zero. ) Most likely it was not the same person. Still, even the French judge at the Winter Olympics was closer to the other judges than this.
Because the skins were part of a series and the only difference between the skins was colour I was forced to conclude that an arbitrary decision was made based on some persons preference (or lack there of) for the colour of the last skin I uploaded.
In my mind, I could not reconcile the two extreme ratings just because the colours were different. If uploading multiple skins with only a colour change is frowned upon, then this needs to be indicated somewhere in the rules of the site.
In my defense, I was simply responding to a request from people who wanted the new colour variations. I would have compounded them into one file but I had been having a lot of difficulty creating such a file, and literature on creating compound WB skins is scarce.
As for the rest of your message, I will take your word that no such "group" exist. I have no reason to doubt you. I am the first to admit, that in the present world situation, sometimes paranoia and conspiracy theories can get the better of a person.
Hopefully this will indicate to you why I was originally upset.
David, here it is in a nutshell.
I uploaded a skin that was part of a series. Previous uploads of the skin had received initial ratings ranging from 6 to 7. The new upload received a 4.
I know, and I understand that the default rating is 6 for times when a moderator is unavailable to rate the skin. However, the 7 and the 4 both had to be assigned by someone. (I did check to make sure these ratings were not influenced by other members. The number of ratings at the time of these two postings was zero. ) Most likely it was not the same person. Still, even the French judge at the Winter Olympics was closer to the other judges than this.
Because the skins were part of a series and the only difference between the skins was colour I was forced to conclude that an arbitrary decision was made based on some persons preference (or lack there of) for the colour of the last skin I uploaded.
In my mind, I could not reconcile the two extreme ratings just because the colours were different. If uploading multiple skins with only a colour change is frowned upon, then this needs to be indicated somewhere in the rules of the site.
In my defense, I was simply responding to a request from people who wanted the new colour variations. I would have compounded them into one file but I had been having a lot of difficulty creating such a file, and literature on creating compound WB skins is scarce.
As for the rest of your message, I will take your word that no such "group" exist. I have no reason to doubt you. I am the first to admit, that in the present world situation, sometimes paranoia and conspiracy theories can get the better of a person.
Hopefully this will indicate to you why I was originally upset.
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Reply #41 Friday, July 19, 2002 10:26 PM
Fuzzy Logic -
It would seem to me that anyone could do harm to the ratings by acting irresponsibly or foolishly. To imply that "those with little knowledge of skinning" are the problem is, in my opinion, a fairly general and biased statement. It does not take an artist to appreciate art.