Again...
Tuesday, July 2, 2002 by adni18 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Someone who thinks that he is a God or Art master or I don’t know what, he just visit the wallpaper section and he has put to almost all wallpapers the lowest rates! I think he have done it to WindowBlinds section too!
I don't know if this action is for laugh or cry, but someone (maybe you Pat
), must have a look at this phenomenon 
The intentions for the rating system are good, but some people are not! I am sorry to say that, but it is a fact.
So many kind and interesting people in WinCustomize, I wonder why they are permitting some brainless minority, (maybe 5 people at most), to spoil the image of the site.
I don't know if this action is for laugh or cry, but someone (maybe you Pat
), must have a look at this phenomenon 
The intentions for the rating system are good, but some people are not! I am sorry to say that, but it is a fact.
So many kind and interesting people in WinCustomize, I wonder why they are permitting some brainless minority, (maybe 5 people at most), to spoil the image of the site.
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Lecrayon
Reply #82 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:01 PM
Reply #82 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:01 PM
yep, friendly discussion. Love exchanging views. Good one again Paxx...I don't have to add anything new on this point.
One thing to Migellito, If you thought I would ask people what they think of my work on exhibitions, I don't do that
I hear the comments and smile. To some of my close friends comments are very important, again, in order to improve. Ratings do not give an incentive to improve. It's just one big question mark. And indeed comments are a better way to go forward.
One thing to Migellito, If you thought I would ask people what they think of my work on exhibitions, I don't do that
I hear the comments and smile. To some of my close friends comments are very important, again, in order to improve. Ratings do not give an incentive to improve. It's just one big question mark. And indeed comments are a better way to go forward.
Jafo
Reply #83 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:44 PM
Reply #83 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:44 PM
Paxx....to me, the ratings are quite simple.
It is not a case of....the education system, where you 'HOPE' your teacher is using the same criteria as a teacher in the next school would be, therefore having 'equality' across the Ed system.
ALL that is needed in respect to an individual's ratings on a skin or wall here is that HIS OWN criteria, whatever they may be [that part is irrelevant] are followed equally on each submission.
If it's just 'how' the rating works...then for me a '10' would be "so good, I cannot imagine a way to improve it", and a '1' is "so bad I cannot think of a way to make it worse"......all the ratings in between are merely relative to that....the 'gooder' and 'badder' being determined by my personal experience and understanding and opinionated emotion. Would I be likely to mark something down because it wasn't my favourite colour [grey]? Possibly. Would that cause a major shift in my singular rating of that item? No. Would that prejudice towards Grey be in some way detrimental to another similarly non-grey item? Only if my prejudice was flaky and inconsistent.
This is not the same drama relating to the 'adverse' grading of a school student by dissimilar teacher's criteria.....with the potential to make one student fail and another pass some arbitrary 'test'.
All it is is that if any work rated by Jafo gets a '1' then in Jafo's opinion it is pretty darn awful. If another gets a '10' then it's pretty darn good...IN JAFO'S OPINION.
All that is 'demanded' of this system of 'evaluation' is, unlike the education system, as many people as possible applies therir OWN criteria and actually RATES the works.
Ultimately...you get a '3' from me....'not grey enough'...an '8' from BoXXi...'good, but I make these too and I see faults'....a '10' from Johnny-New-Guy....'wow, never seen one like this before'...etc....Average?....'7'.
[This of course is just an example]....
The only time this 'system' can go 'wrong' is when a pattern can be seen to emerge of pre-meditated, deliberate abuse of the privilege to further one's own standings in 'most popular download' or whatever. That would be the equivalent of the teacher passing all his pupils with honours just so he can be lauded as a great teacher. It's self-serving, and definitely WRONG.
But, after all this, 2 things remain true...the ratings are very likely to remain, and Paxx will still not like them [a stand that I respect immensely, just don't quite agree with]....
It is not a case of....the education system, where you 'HOPE' your teacher is using the same criteria as a teacher in the next school would be, therefore having 'equality' across the Ed system.
ALL that is needed in respect to an individual's ratings on a skin or wall here is that HIS OWN criteria, whatever they may be [that part is irrelevant] are followed equally on each submission.
If it's just 'how' the rating works...then for me a '10' would be "so good, I cannot imagine a way to improve it", and a '1' is "so bad I cannot think of a way to make it worse"......all the ratings in between are merely relative to that....the 'gooder' and 'badder' being determined by my personal experience and understanding and opinionated emotion. Would I be likely to mark something down because it wasn't my favourite colour [grey]? Possibly. Would that cause a major shift in my singular rating of that item? No. Would that prejudice towards Grey be in some way detrimental to another similarly non-grey item? Only if my prejudice was flaky and inconsistent.
This is not the same drama relating to the 'adverse' grading of a school student by dissimilar teacher's criteria.....with the potential to make one student fail and another pass some arbitrary 'test'.
All it is is that if any work rated by Jafo gets a '1' then in Jafo's opinion it is pretty darn awful. If another gets a '10' then it's pretty darn good...IN JAFO'S OPINION.
All that is 'demanded' of this system of 'evaluation' is, unlike the education system, as many people as possible applies therir OWN criteria and actually RATES the works.
Ultimately...you get a '3' from me....'not grey enough'...an '8' from BoXXi...'good, but I make these too and I see faults'....a '10' from Johnny-New-Guy....'wow, never seen one like this before'...etc....Average?....'7'.
[This of course is just an example]....
The only time this 'system' can go 'wrong' is when a pattern can be seen to emerge of pre-meditated, deliberate abuse of the privilege to further one's own standings in 'most popular download' or whatever. That would be the equivalent of the teacher passing all his pupils with honours just so he can be lauded as a great teacher. It's self-serving, and definitely WRONG.
But, after all this, 2 things remain true...the ratings are very likely to remain, and Paxx will still not like them [a stand that I respect immensely, just don't quite agree with]....
Lecrayon
Reply #84 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:52 PM
Reply #84 Thursday, July 4, 2002 6:52 PM
Jafo, I would agree with you in what you say there, if....there are at least 20 rates given...look at what paxx said about the amount of rates per work Just something to think about....And by typing this, it is bedtime 
Just something to think about....And by typing this, it is bedtime 
Chris
Reply #85 Thursday, July 4, 2002 7:11 PM
Reply #85 Thursday, July 4, 2002 7:11 PM
Jafo: Ultimately...you get a '3' from me....'not grey enough'...an '8' from BoXXi...'good, but I make these too and I see faults'....a '10' from Johnny-New-Guy....'wow, never seen one like this before'...etc....Average?....'7'.
But doesn't this make the ratings somewhat meaningless because there's nothing, no even a comment to back them up with why it warrented such a rating? You might as well pull the numbers out of a hat.
As Paxx and Lecrayon say, statistically, the only way this could pan out is if the rating data is large enough to even out such idiosyncacies.
I'm not trying to be arugmentative, I'm just really bored sweating in this July 4th heat and I need something to distract me
But doesn't this make the ratings somewhat meaningless because there's nothing, no even a comment to back them up with why it warrented such a rating? You might as well pull the numbers out of a hat.
As Paxx and Lecrayon say, statistically, the only way this could pan out is if the rating data is large enough to even out such idiosyncacies.
I'm not trying to be arugmentative, I'm just really bored sweating in this July 4th heat and I need something to distract me
WOM
Reply #86 Thursday, July 4, 2002 7:25 PM
Reply #86 Thursday, July 4, 2002 7:25 PM
I don't like all those grey skins. I want some color in them. But... I haven't rated those gray skins all 3's or below for that reason. If it is a wb and it works like it is supposed to rhen it should at least get a 5. You can nit pick shadows, borders and color from there. But I do believe that the old timers need to do more ratings. Before the masses started to rate most skins only had 1-3 ratings. It seems that that is still the case. 
Jafo
Reply #87 Thursday, July 4, 2002 8:16 PM
Reply #87 Thursday, July 4, 2002 8:16 PM
Chris..[I'll try to take your mind off the heat]....I DID say that was an example. I was being particulerly 'quaint' with my criteria in the example....AS an example.
None of those 3 'ratings' were pulled from a hat, they each were justifyable in the mind of the reviewer and therefore entirely valid.
But, yes, the more ratings you get the more 'generally' accurate the result to 'Joe Average without a clue'...all he sees is a '7', and thinks....'hmmm....above average in the opinion of the raters....can't be too bad...maybe worth a DL'.
Using poor ol' treetog again as an example [sorry, Renato....just throw things at me instead]...I look at all his skins. They are all of extreme high quality....very well done. [that's a given] BUT, and I stress 'BUT' are they equally 'excellent' or are some better than others in your opinion? Do you just say, 'wow,10....wow,10.....wow,10' ad nauseum, or do you perhaps think 'this one is fantastic, but not 'quite' as fantastic as this other one....better make it a '9''.
Suddenly that skin, which only has ONE rating, yours....is a '9'. Is that wrong? No. It's a valid judgement. Should it be a '10'? To you, no. To others, maybe. Does it 'require' an accompanying comment? No. Does treetog 'need' a reason for the '9'? Probably not.....he'd see it as just 'not quite as appreciated' as one with '10'. Does he expect assistance via comments to better his work? Probably not.....Wincustomize isn't a learning institution for skill advancement so I doubt he'd be looking for it...
How does all this equate with a 'lesser' skilled skinner?
Do we mere mortals upload here to specifically garner input to better our work specifically or do we just accept any suggestions if and when they 'may' be forthcoming?
Perhaps a specific locale is needed to promote constructive criticism.....somewhere where stuff is uploaded prior to formal 'release' and people can be as critical as they like....PURELY for betterment.
You upload in the clear understanding that the 'education' process may be painful...
There's a bit of reluctance to be 'honest' with what is perceived as a 'finished' work...
None of those 3 'ratings' were pulled from a hat, they each were justifyable in the mind of the reviewer and therefore entirely valid.
But, yes, the more ratings you get the more 'generally' accurate the result to 'Joe Average without a clue'...all he sees is a '7', and thinks....'hmmm....above average in the opinion of the raters....can't be too bad...maybe worth a DL'.
Using poor ol' treetog again as an example [sorry, Renato....just throw things at me instead]...I look at all his skins. They are all of extreme high quality....very well done. [that's a given] BUT, and I stress 'BUT' are they equally 'excellent' or are some better than others in your opinion? Do you just say, 'wow,10....wow,10.....wow,10' ad nauseum, or do you perhaps think 'this one is fantastic, but not 'quite' as fantastic as this other one....better make it a '9''.
Suddenly that skin, which only has ONE rating, yours....is a '9'. Is that wrong? No. It's a valid judgement. Should it be a '10'? To you, no. To others, maybe. Does it 'require' an accompanying comment? No. Does treetog 'need' a reason for the '9'? Probably not.....he'd see it as just 'not quite as appreciated' as one with '10'. Does he expect assistance via comments to better his work? Probably not.....Wincustomize isn't a learning institution for skill advancement so I doubt he'd be looking for it...
How does all this equate with a 'lesser' skilled skinner?
Do we mere mortals upload here to specifically garner input to better our work specifically or do we just accept any suggestions if and when they 'may' be forthcoming?
Perhaps a specific locale is needed to promote constructive criticism.....somewhere where stuff is uploaded prior to formal 'release' and people can be as critical as they like....PURELY for betterment.
You upload in the clear understanding that the 'education' process may be painful...
There's a bit of reluctance to be 'honest' with what is perceived as a 'finished' work...
Jafo
Reply #88 Thursday, July 4, 2002 8:24 PM
Reply #88 Thursday, July 4, 2002 8:24 PM
Please pretend one of those 'specifically's wasn't there.... 
paxx
Reply #90 Thursday, July 4, 2002 10:50 PM
Reply #90 Thursday, July 4, 2002 10:50 PM
OK, Jafo, but please explain the difference in ART between a 6 and a 7, or between a 7 and an 8. As I asked before, can you be certain that all the skins you've rated 7 are less good than all the skins you've rated 8?
I am ready to bet that if you could go back and rate them again without seeing the rate you gave them before, probably 50% of those would switch rates: some 7's would become 8's and vice-versa.
And about the difference in criterias between you and Joe for example, you say it's not relevant. I say it may not be if you both rated ALL the skins on the site, then he would (hopefully) consistantly rate all the skins with his criterias and you would in turn rate all the skins with your criterias. In the end it would be fine since you both rated all the skins, so no skins would be penalised. But nobody rates all the skins.
You will rate skin A with a 8 and Joe will rate skin B with a 6. But maybe skin B is actually superior to skin A, and maybe both you and Joe would think so, but you didn't actually rate both skins so it now seems to everybody that skin B is better than skin A while it's probably the opposite...
Err. Not sure I'm being clear... Am I?
I am ready to bet that if you could go back and rate them again without seeing the rate you gave them before, probably 50% of those would switch rates: some 7's would become 8's and vice-versa.
And about the difference in criterias between you and Joe for example, you say it's not relevant. I say it may not be if you both rated ALL the skins on the site, then he would (hopefully) consistantly rate all the skins with his criterias and you would in turn rate all the skins with your criterias. In the end it would be fine since you both rated all the skins, so no skins would be penalised. But nobody rates all the skins.
You will rate skin A with a 8 and Joe will rate skin B with a 6. But maybe skin B is actually superior to skin A, and maybe both you and Joe would think so, but you didn't actually rate both skins so it now seems to everybody that skin B is better than skin A while it's probably the opposite...
Err. Not sure I'm being clear... Am I?
BoXXi
Reply #91 Thursday, July 4, 2002 11:23 PM
Reply #91 Thursday, July 4, 2002 11:23 PM
So if skin A has 8 beans and he gives skin B four beans and divides the other beans between some DX themes, how many beans........... what was the question again? My brain hurts! 
migellito
Reply #92 Friday, July 5, 2002 12:30 AM
Reply #92 Friday, July 5, 2002 12:30 AM
"the stars are right!"
i think i actually detected paxx and jafo coming close [close, not meeting] to a neighboring opinion on this.. their points, though not meeting, are seeming to converge a bit. i think this fortells a new golden age of harmony and.. well, maybe not
all kidding aside, i have the utmost respect for you both, and relish the opportunity to hear both your views. that said, i'm spot-on with jafo.
as far as the difference between a 7 and an 8, it's quite clear in my mind. hard to explain, but quite clear. hmmm.. i want to test your hypothesis though, paxx. i'll go look through some skins and see if i rate them the same now.
i think i actually detected paxx and jafo coming close [close, not meeting] to a neighboring opinion on this.. their points, though not meeting, are seeming to converge a bit. i think this fortells a new golden age of harmony and.. well, maybe not
all kidding aside, i have the utmost respect for you both, and relish the opportunity to hear both your views. that said, i'm spot-on with jafo.
as far as the difference between a 7 and an 8, it's quite clear in my mind. hard to explain, but quite clear. hmmm.. i want to test your hypothesis though, paxx. i'll go look through some skins and see if i rate them the same now.
Jafo
Reply #93 Friday, July 5, 2002 2:12 AM
Reply #93 Friday, July 5, 2002 2:12 AM
Valid points there, Patric.....but our vies/concerns merge into trivialities 'IF' just more people would rate more skins.
A valid 'norm' would be reached.
If, however, only one person rated each and every skin [the same person, that is] then all you'd get is a balanced appraisal, just prejudiced by one person's opinion. That isn't ever likely to happen, though I guess _Shoggot_ came 'close' with walls at skinz mk.1, so we're relatively 'stuck' with as many people as possible rating as many as they can, which, if done even-handedly can work.
Rating can never be an arithmetic test....score by counting the correct answers....but it can still be a matter of how many of the 'right buttons' are being pushed in your brain when you view the work.
Like Mercedes being the 'car by which all others are judged' [supposedly], it's a bit corny to then declare...'well, my VW has more black bits than a Merc has, so it MUST be better'. Obviously a little more credit must be bestowed upon the observer for being capable of an 'informed' understanding of sensible comparative criteria...
Now I'm probably not being clear...so I'll stop...
A valid 'norm' would be reached.
If, however, only one person rated each and every skin [the same person, that is] then all you'd get is a balanced appraisal, just prejudiced by one person's opinion. That isn't ever likely to happen, though I guess _Shoggot_ came 'close' with walls at skinz mk.1, so we're relatively 'stuck' with as many people as possible rating as many as they can, which, if done even-handedly can work.
Rating can never be an arithmetic test....score by counting the correct answers....but it can still be a matter of how many of the 'right buttons' are being pushed in your brain when you view the work.
Like Mercedes being the 'car by which all others are judged' [supposedly], it's a bit corny to then declare...'well, my VW has more black bits than a Merc has, so it MUST be better'. Obviously a little more credit must be bestowed upon the observer for being capable of an 'informed' understanding of sensible comparative criteria...
Now I'm probably not being clear...so I'll stop...
Lecrayon
Reply #95 Friday, July 5, 2002 4:24 AM
Reply #95 Friday, July 5, 2002 4:24 AM
Hmmmmm yep, good points made So...maybe the conclusion could be: the more a work is rated the more accurate the opinion about that specific work will be...Now it is to think about how many rates have to be given to be accurate 2 rates per work..hmmm bit subjective...the more rates, the less subjective?
Oh and Jafo...I don't understand why commenting on work to give people hints or people me for that matter should be compared with school. Even though lots of contemporary artists follow classes during their career, and indeed great ones did that too, comments are always highly appreciated IF it comes from people with at least some art background. If you refuse the willingness to learn, you will get stuck and eventually become less than you were.
So...maybe the conclusion could be: the more a work is rated the more accurate the opinion about that specific work will be...Now it is to think about how many rates have to be given to be accurate 2 rates per work..hmmm bit subjective...the more rates, the less subjective?Oh and Jafo...I don't understand why commenting on work to give people hints or people me for that matter should be compared with school. Even though lots of contemporary artists follow classes during their career, and indeed great ones did that too, comments are always highly appreciated IF it comes from people with at least some art background. If you refuse the willingness to learn, you will get stuck and eventually become less than you were.
fearoffours
Reply #96 Friday, July 5, 2002 5:18 AM
Reply #96 Friday, July 5, 2002 5:18 AM
boXXi - bean, bean, half a bean, bean and a bean and a half.
Jafo
Reply #97 Friday, July 5, 2002 7:38 AM
Reply #97 Friday, July 5, 2002 7:38 AM
Fixed your hiccup, Lecrayon...
Specifically the 'school' reference was for paxx's benefit....but prhaps you can liken things to a teaching hospital.....some 'doctors' would rather just get on with healing people rather than interminably instructing/guiding others in how to heal.
Suggestions of ways to improve a person's work can be likened to that, and not necessarily everyone's 'cup of tea'. It can't be something expected of, or forced upon people who happen to look at your works. Comments should be viewed as a privilege, not a right, and similar can be said for ratings, too...
Specifically the 'school' reference was for paxx's benefit....but prhaps you can liken things to a teaching hospital.....some 'doctors' would rather just get on with healing people rather than interminably instructing/guiding others in how to heal.
Suggestions of ways to improve a person's work can be likened to that, and not necessarily everyone's 'cup of tea'. It can't be something expected of, or forced upon people who happen to look at your works. Comments should be viewed as a privilege, not a right, and similar can be said for ratings, too...
Lecrayon
Reply #98 Friday, July 5, 2002 9:49 AM
Reply #98 Friday, July 5, 2002 9:49 AM
Thanks for the fix Jafo
Let me say in this thread then that all comments are welcome when reviewing what has been accepted by the moderators/admins... The more the better...When I started to upload some cursors Paxx was there still grateful for his comment (but beside the discussion here in this thread, however wanted to say it though)
Let me say in this thread then that all comments are welcome when reviewing what has been accepted by the moderators/admins...
The more the better...When I started to upload some cursors Paxx was there still grateful for his comment (but beside the discussion here in this thread, however wanted to say it though)
paxx
Reply #99 Friday, July 5, 2002 9:57 AM
Reply #99 Friday, July 5, 2002 9:57 AM
Your Wasp cursors are simply awsome Lecrayon, keep up the terrific work!
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Reply #81 Thursday, July 4, 2002 4:01 PM
I like to release skins
I like that there's 95% of people that likes my skins
I don't like that it predominates the opinion of the 5% restant people
I don't care why this