Okay, this must be considered a rip
Tuesday, June 18, 2002 by Ruthven | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I've been down this road before, but I'm pretty sure I merged into the right lane this time. Compare the newly-posted "XPMA" Dashboard theme from Manfred Amstutz with my "Windows XP for Pocket PC" Dashboard theme.
Sorry, but am I imagining things here? Yeah, he changed some of the icons around, but the layout, colors, and concept are nearly IDENTICAL! I mean, I thought this WAS my skin when I first looked at it.
I'd appreciate it if an admin here could either a) remove his skin, or
give me a compelling reason as to why it's not a rip and shouldn't be removed.
Sorry, but am I imagining things here? Yeah, he changed some of the icons around, but the layout, colors, and concept are nearly IDENTICAL! I mean, I thought this WAS my skin when I first looked at it.
I'd appreciate it if an admin here could either a) remove his skin, or
give me a compelling reason as to why it's not a rip and shouldn't be removed.
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moshi
Reply #3 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:00 PM
Reply #3 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:00 PM
hm, not completely sure about the layout thing since i do not know how Dashboard works, but the graphics and icons are copyrighted by Microsoft and not by you. and the idea of an XP look skin is not that original.
Ruthven
Reply #4 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:09 PM
Reply #4 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:09 PM
moshi -- Like I said, the icons aren't the same, and I make no claims to them being original. They're certainly derivatives of Microsoft's look.
It's the layout and overall look of the skins that concern me. Without delving into the details, the two skins look and function identically side-by-side. And the design and function was not done by Microsoft.
It's the layout and overall look of the skins that concern me. Without delving into the details, the two skins look and function identically side-by-side. And the design and function was not done by Microsoft.
KarmaGirl
Reply #5 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:34 PM
Reply #5 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:34 PM
Glen, "Americas Cup" has been pulled and an email has been sent to the author requesting proof of permission to use your graphics.
Unfortunately, since I have no way of actually running Dashboard skins (since I don't have a handheld) I can not pull the other on functionality. I can't pull it on graphics, either, due to the fact that they are both pulled from Microsoft. Hopefully, there is another admin who can actually run the skins to make a call on it.
Unfortunately, since I have no way of actually running Dashboard skins (since I don't have a handheld) I can not pull the other on functionality. I can't pull it on graphics, either, due to the fact that they are both pulled from Microsoft. Hopefully, there is another admin who can actually run the skins to make a call on it.
Ruthven
Reply #6 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:46 PM
Reply #6 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:46 PM
Ugh. I didn't really care about the Americas Cup skin. The guy at least cared enough to credit the skins, and it was just duplicated Microsoft icons he borrowed from me anyway.
I find this very disturbing, since the screenshots alone are enough to see how similar the two skins are. I feel like if I say something, I'm being a real baby about it (especially since Microsoft is the original inspiration anyway). But if I say nothing, then anyone could just create their own versions of at least half my skins, since they're inspired by 3rd-party sources.
Two Windowblinds skins that both look like Windows XP are understandable. Two Dashboard skins that look alike usually aren't coincidence.
I find this very disturbing, since the screenshots alone are enough to see how similar the two skins are. I feel like if I say something, I'm being a real baby about it (especially since Microsoft is the original inspiration anyway). But if I say nothing, then anyone could just create their own versions of at least half my skins, since they're inspired by 3rd-party sources.
Two Windowblinds skins that both look like Windows XP are understandable. Two Dashboard skins that look alike usually aren't coincidence.
KarmaGirl
Reply #7 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:02 PM
Reply #7 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:02 PM
The problem is, there are 33 XP skins for Dashboard. Quite a few of them look a lot alike. Without actually using them, I don't feel comfortable making a judgement either way.
Ruthven
Reply #8 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:16 PM
Reply #8 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:16 PM
Not as much alike as these two. Look, you're obviously welcome to do whatever you like, and I'm entitled to my opinion and little else. I'm just disappointed, and not optimistic that much else will be done about this.
At any rate, I posted a side-by-side comparison over on Lotsofskins, to try to gather some more opinions. Like I said at the top, maybe I am just imagining things.
At any rate, I posted a side-by-side comparison over on Lotsofskins, to try to gather some more opinions. Like I said at the top, maybe I am just imagining things.
moshi
Reply #9 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:25 PM
Reply #9 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:25 PM
i do not use Dashboard, but i to took the time to download both skins and had a look at the code, so that i do not look like i am a complete idiot 
the XPMA code does not look like copied and pasted from yours, but was done with a program called Skin Me, so your skin may have been edited with this program. to be honest, i can come to no conclusion so i better shut up now.
the XPMA code does not look like copied and pasted from yours, but was done with a program called Skin Me, so your skin may have been edited with this program. to be honest, i can come to no conclusion so i better shut up now.
Ruthven
Reply #10 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:33 PM
Reply #10 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 2:33 PM
Thanks for your efforts, moshi. But I'm not claiming this guy blatantly took my skin and just swapped out a few icons. Believe me, I'd be a lot crankier if I thought that.
Right now, I'm just letting this go and allowing the greater minds than my own to sort things out. Probably the worst thing I'll do is update my own skin -- even though all it's missing is a mute icon -- just to make me feel like I have some sort of control. It's weaselly, but I've never claimed to be otherwise
And if nothing else, I can take comfort in the fact that my skin truly looks better and is more functional. Now, I'm taking my ball and going home.
Right now, I'm just letting this go and allowing the greater minds than my own to sort things out. Probably the worst thing I'll do is update my own skin -- even though all it's missing is a mute icon -- just to make me feel like I have some sort of control. It's weaselly, but I've never claimed to be otherwise
And if nothing else, I can take comfort in the fact that my skin truly looks better and is more functional. Now, I'm taking my ball and going home.
MarkMcQ
Reply #11 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:58 PM
Reply #11 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:58 PM
The comments on the skin in questions says something about the person taking 2 skins and combining them into one (or words to that effect), so looks like Glen's skin has been used.
Obviously there's the fact of XP gfx being MS copyright, but Glen did take time to arrange and layout the pieces for the Dashboard skin, and so his point is valid.
Obviously there's the fact of XP gfx being MS copyright, but Glen did take time to arrange and layout the pieces for the Dashboard skin, and so his point is valid.
Jafo
Reply #12 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:17 PM
Reply #12 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:17 PM
I'll have a look, but I don't use Dashboard, nor do I specifically look at their submissions [for that reason]...but when a skin is effectively a 'port' of an OS you must expect repetition of 'similarity'....BeOS in both WB and LiteSTEP is a good example.
If they are 'too alike' because one was created from the other, then the 'copy' will go....
If they are 'too alike' because one was created from the other, then the 'copy' will go....
Bangkokboy
Reply #13 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:27 PM
Reply #13 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:27 PM
MA's skin in question also looks a lot like his own My Pocket XP skin previously posted in total layout. When he made more room for his telescoping icons, he pushed the right border out and suddenly has a background which does resemble GER's fine specimen unfortunately. 1. GER has a valid complaint. 2. I don't believe that MA meant to blatantly infringe. 3. Couldn't this have been handled with a little more tact and class?
Jafo
Reply #14 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:37 PM
Reply #14 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:37 PM
Well...from the screenshots....and considering they are both XP 'clones' they look sufficiently different to be justified to co-exist.
Graphical differences are clear and obvious.
In fact, there appears to be no two images or icons the same, and the layouts are alike in the same way as Win 95 and XP are 'alike'.
I really don't think that, on the basis of the screenshot images that they could genuinely be considered 'copied', or 'ripped'.
Glen, if you are intent on controlling original author-ship on a skin then steer clear of OS 'ports' or styled skins, and create 'genuine' originality....
If a Dashboard-using Admin can shed any more light on the subject and show genuine connectivity between the two works then the situation may change....
Graphical differences are clear and obvious.
In fact, there appears to be no two images or icons the same, and the layouts are alike in the same way as Win 95 and XP are 'alike'.
I really don't think that, on the basis of the screenshot images that they could genuinely be considered 'copied', or 'ripped'.
Glen, if you are intent on controlling original author-ship on a skin then steer clear of OS 'ports' or styled skins, and create 'genuine' originality....
If a Dashboard-using Admin can shed any more light on the subject and show genuine connectivity between the two works then the situation may change....
Bangkokboy
Reply #15 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 7:16 PM
Reply #15 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 7:16 PM
Jafo,
What you said with respect to these two skins in question makes sense. But I would hate to think, as a general principle, that all OS-related skins are "fair game" simply because they're OS-related. Some of the finest work that I've seen on this site from Glen and Manfred has been on OS-related and derivative skins, and I'd hate to see either fine skinner abandon that subject matter out of concern that their art will not be respected. OK, I've pontificated too much already, and will now shut up and stay out of the way of wiser heads.
What you said with respect to these two skins in question makes sense. But I would hate to think, as a general principle, that all OS-related skins are "fair game" simply because they're OS-related. Some of the finest work that I've seen on this site from Glen and Manfred has been on OS-related and derivative skins, and I'd hate to see either fine skinner abandon that subject matter out of concern that their art will not be respected. OK, I've pontificated too much already, and will now shut up and stay out of the way of wiser heads.
Jafo
Reply #16 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:38 AM
Reply #16 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:38 AM
Bangkokboy....this is a problem endemic with OS-related ports...and the only 'real' way to determine whether one is in fact a 'copy' of another's work is to find specific graphic details that are truly original to one author being re-used by another.
If two separate themes 'happen' to both use generic details/icons such as the taskbar-expanding arrow, as these two do, and they are identical, [which these two are not], and the first artist has a particular 'quirk' on his icon that does not exist on the original OS, but DOES appear on the second 'version' then a 'rip' may be evident.
Unless I'm looking at the wrong two skins, these appear to be a 'poor' example of a 'ripping' as no two images are alike in a 'derivative' sense, and the only 'similarity' appears to be an approximation of layout which could easily be construed as interpretations of the same OS, ported independently....
If two separate themes 'happen' to both use generic details/icons such as the taskbar-expanding arrow, as these two do, and they are identical, [which these two are not], and the first artist has a particular 'quirk' on his icon that does not exist on the original OS, but DOES appear on the second 'version' then a 'rip' may be evident.
Unless I'm looking at the wrong two skins, these appear to be a 'poor' example of a 'ripping' as no two images are alike in a 'derivative' sense, and the only 'similarity' appears to be an approximation of layout which could easily be construed as interpretations of the same OS, ported independently....
DavidK
Reply #17 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:45 AM
Reply #17 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:45 AM
I looked at the screenshots side-by-side and came to the same conclusions as Jafo. It looks to me that the art used is different in both. The layout is very similar but not identical and seems to be similar because they both imitate XP.
The only ripping that could apply here is if he used Glen's graphics and frankly I don't think that's the case (they do look different). Of course, I'm assuming the layout is determined by the Dashboard functionality. I don't use it so I'm not sure but they all seem to have the same basic layout.
Bangkokboy - any OS port is fair game as far as the "look and feel" part goes but each artist has protection for his graphics and programming. That can't be used without permission.
The only ripping that could apply here is if he used Glen's graphics and frankly I don't think that's the case (they do look different). Of course, I'm assuming the layout is determined by the Dashboard functionality. I don't use it so I'm not sure but they all seem to have the same basic layout.
Bangkokboy - any OS port is fair game as far as the "look and feel" part goes but each artist has protection for his graphics and programming. That can't be used without permission.
DavidK
Reply #18 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:48 AM
Reply #18 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:48 AM
heh - should've refreshed before I posted, Jafo covered it all again even better... 
Jafo
Reply #19 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:25 AM
Reply #19 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:25 AM
That's OK, Dave....I was trying to be as clear and precise as I could, as this affects us all, to one degree or another...
Ruthven
Reply #20 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 8:25 AM
Reply #20 Wednesday, June 19, 2002 8:25 AM
Nope.. never claimed he did use my graphics. And I'm going to just let this go now, because it's wasted effort. But I do want to take a minute to try and explain myself. I don't want anyone thinking I'm just being a big, bitter baby about this
1. It's difficult to call any Dashboard skin a "clone" or "port" of XP or any other OS. Dashboard isn't an OS and doesn't operate like one. The best you can do is replicate a program running under XP, or just a PART of the OS. (My WinTabXP skin, which duplicates an XP tabbed dialog box, is about as close as you'll come to a "port.") Dashboard is a somewhat unique skinnable in this regard, hence the confusion.
2. Not once did I claim any specific graphics were taken from my skin. If graphics had been taken from my skin and arranged differently, I might have contacted the author, but it probably wouldn't have bothered me. After all, they ARE just copies of MS graphics. To me, that was never at issue.
3. The one and only thing that bothered me is, despite the changed icons, if you look at these two skins side-by-side, they appear nearly identical at first glance. They have a nearly identical background. The icons are all arranged identically, and use the black-and-white to indicate which aren't active. And while they're both DERIVED from a part of XP, the concept of what parts of XP to use, how they should be arranged, and how the skin should function was mine. I have a hard time believing that choosing which parts of XP to piece together was just a coincidence.
So that's that. I trust that the admins have made the right decision, and I'll live with it. (Worse than that, I actually LIKE the admins here ... damn, that's frustrating!
) The only annoying thing I'll do now is update my skin to include the missing WISBar mute button, then call it a day.
Thanks to everyone that took the time to look at the skins (and/or read my rants here). And feel free to just delete this thread if you think it's going to cause any "uprising" or whatever!
1. It's difficult to call any Dashboard skin a "clone" or "port" of XP or any other OS. Dashboard isn't an OS and doesn't operate like one. The best you can do is replicate a program running under XP, or just a PART of the OS. (My WinTabXP skin, which duplicates an XP tabbed dialog box, is about as close as you'll come to a "port.") Dashboard is a somewhat unique skinnable in this regard, hence the confusion.
2. Not once did I claim any specific graphics were taken from my skin. If graphics had been taken from my skin and arranged differently, I might have contacted the author, but it probably wouldn't have bothered me. After all, they ARE just copies of MS graphics. To me, that was never at issue.
3. The one and only thing that bothered me is, despite the changed icons, if you look at these two skins side-by-side, they appear nearly identical at first glance. They have a nearly identical background. The icons are all arranged identically, and use the black-and-white to indicate which aren't active. And while they're both DERIVED from a part of XP, the concept of what parts of XP to use, how they should be arranged, and how the skin should function was mine. I have a hard time believing that choosing which parts of XP to piece together was just a coincidence.
So that's that. I trust that the admins have made the right decision, and I'll live with it. (Worse than that, I actually LIKE the admins here ... damn, that's frustrating!
) The only annoying thing I'll do now is update my skin to include the missing WISBar mute button, then call it a day.Thanks to everyone that took the time to look at the skins (and/or read my rants here). And feel free to just delete this thread if you think it's going to cause any "uprising" or whatever!
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Reply #1 Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:29 AM
I don't mean to get cranky about this stuff, but it keeps getting worse and worse here.