Here we go again.
Monday, June 3, 2002 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I go away for one weekend, and it starts again. I direct you to the ever lenient NeoWin:
http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30057
Thanks to those people who let me know about this one.
I won't be making any dumb comments like last time, but I urge you all to have a look at the thread and post your comments.
http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30057
Thanks to those people who let me know about this one.
I won't be making any dumb comments like last time, but I urge you all to have a look at the thread and post your comments.
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JayG
Reply #2 Monday, June 3, 2002 1:52 PM
Reply #2 Monday, June 3, 2002 1:52 PM
those guys are sad. they make windows users look bad. when linux and mac users say windows users are mindless sheep its because of guys like them. there's hardly any decent ms-style themes that aren't ports.
grayhaze
Reply #3 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:12 PM
Reply #3 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:12 PM
It's behaviour like this that makes me seriously consider retiring from skinning altogether. It's terribly exhausting trying to knock some sense into these people.
Rippers are destroying our community.
Rippers are destroying our community.
moshi
Reply #4 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:30 PM
Reply #4 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:30 PM
>
it was just a matter of time. there aren´t that many Mac artists to rip, now it´s WindowBlinds...
i mean people there are presenting wallpapers they extracted from a Mac *.sit file as their "conversions".
it was just a matter of time. there aren´t that many Mac artists to rip, now it´s WindowBlinds... i mean people there are presenting wallpapers they extracted from a Mac *.sit file as their "conversions".
DavidK
Reply #5 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:59 PM
Reply #5 Monday, June 3, 2002 2:59 PM
It's a shame the term "port" seems to give some sort of credibility to these rippers. Like unauthorized porting is not the same as copying, plagarism or stealing. To call it a port of a theme it has to be sanctioned by the original designer and include credit to him as well as permission from him. Call it a rip, not a port.
They come off like idiot children supporting each other in this nasty little game. They are stealing an artist's work with no regard and then congratulating each other on what a nice skin they made. These are not skinners and they are not part of the community. They're petty thieves with no talent and no creativity.
They come off like idiot children supporting each other in this nasty little game. They are stealing an artist's work with no regard and then congratulating each other on what a nice skin they made. These are not skinners and they are not part of the community. They're petty thieves with no talent and no creativity.
Forced2Register
Reply #6 Monday, June 3, 2002 3:39 PM
Reply #6 Monday, June 3, 2002 3:39 PM
It happened with BBX and Milk. They figure that once they start working on it the original artist has no choice. Actually it's all coercion, "ask the author" if he says no we'll release it anyway. I think all skinners need to email Neowin and just ask for the skinning forum there to be shut down. At least until Neowin sets some rules for the skinning forum and more importantly enforce them.
grayhaze
Reply #7 Monday, June 3, 2002 3:46 PM
Reply #7 Monday, June 3, 2002 3:46 PM
I had a long heated discussion with the admins at NeoWin a while ago about what goes on in the so-called skinning forums over there. Their excuse was that NeoWin isn't a skinning site, and they can't be expected to moderate all the threads on the site.
I honestly believe that closing that section of the forums would go a long way to curbing the ripping that goes on.
I have reported the above thread to the moderators, and have thus far had no response. The thread has gone from one person attempting to port one of my skins to a group of people saying 'screw the author'.
These people aren't a community of any kind. They're parasites, and something needs to be done to get rid of them.
I honestly believe that closing that section of the forums would go a long way to curbing the ripping that goes on.
I have reported the above thread to the moderators, and have thus far had no response. The thread has gone from one person attempting to port one of my skins to a group of people saying 'screw the author'.
These people aren't a community of any kind. They're parasites, and something needs to be done to get rid of them.
Frogboy
Reply #8 Monday, June 3, 2002 4:25 PM
Reply #8 Monday, June 3, 2002 4:25 PM
I've talked to Neowin about this sort of thing in the past. He's a good guy and definitely has no love for the parasite minority that tends to make a lot of noise on some of those message boards (there's a lot of places to talk about stuff on Neowin and the vast majority of the message boards are full of intelligent people).
The problem with the sections you're seeing is a demographic one. "Unreality" is a 17 year old for instance. Many of his cheerleaders are of similar age. It's not that being young is the issue, but that understanding intellectual property takes time. When I first got into skinning, I didn't see what the big deal was in porting a skin and giving it credit (without permission). It was only over time that I really grasped the importance of protecting the intellectual property rights of theme/skin authors.
What people don't realize is that the truly great skinners/themers aren't legion in size. You eliminate say 20 individuals from all platforms and we'd be much poorer for it. Imagine skinning without Grayhaze or Treetog or Alexandrie or Dangeruss? You can't just treat skin authors as if they are a disposable commodity. Until the msstyles "community" gets a grip on that, it'll always just be mostly ports. And they have a lot more to lose - you could write a script to convert an msstyle to WindowBlinds but not vice versa. It's in that community's long term vested interest to protect artists because their skins are much more vulnerable to porting.
The problem with the sections you're seeing is a demographic one. "Unreality" is a 17 year old for instance. Many of his cheerleaders are of similar age. It's not that being young is the issue, but that understanding intellectual property takes time. When I first got into skinning, I didn't see what the big deal was in porting a skin and giving it credit (without permission). It was only over time that I really grasped the importance of protecting the intellectual property rights of theme/skin authors.
What people don't realize is that the truly great skinners/themers aren't legion in size. You eliminate say 20 individuals from all platforms and we'd be much poorer for it. Imagine skinning without Grayhaze or Treetog or Alexandrie or Dangeruss? You can't just treat skin authors as if they are a disposable commodity. Until the msstyles "community" gets a grip on that, it'll always just be mostly ports. And they have a lot more to lose - you could write a script to convert an msstyle to WindowBlinds but not vice versa. It's in that community's long term vested interest to protect artists because their skins are much more vulnerable to porting.
Jafo
Reply #9 Monday, June 3, 2002 6:16 PM
Reply #9 Monday, June 3, 2002 6:16 PM
The sooner Microsoft updates XP and perhaps breaks the reg-hack for these msstylers the better for all of us.
Msstyles is nothing more than a facillitator for ripping WB, just as the Logon makes use of stolen wall art.
The sooner these kids grow up and develop a moral backbone the better....
Msstyles is nothing more than a facillitator for ripping WB, just as the Logon makes use of stolen wall art.
The sooner these kids grow up and develop a moral backbone the better....
moshi
Reply #10 Monday, June 3, 2002 7:11 PM
Reply #10 Monday, June 3, 2002 7:11 PM
hehe, sure they will all upgrade to a new warezed update of XP, wether they need it or not. but i do not think that will help that much, somewhere the skins have to be stored and all binary data can be hacked. or will microsoft remove the native skinning?
Firestorm
Reply #11 Monday, June 3, 2002 7:12 PM
Reply #11 Monday, June 3, 2002 7:12 PM
Makes me feel ashamed to belong to the same species...
moshi
Reply #12 Monday, June 3, 2002 8:33 PM
Reply #12 Monday, June 3, 2002 8:33 PM
read here: http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=275bcc9f68dccfe23b443eb4edaa6bef&threadid=30126&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
may be we WILL see some legal action now!!!
may be we WILL see some legal action now!!!
Jafo
Reply #13 Monday, June 3, 2002 11:39 PM
Reply #13 Monday, June 3, 2002 11:39 PM
moshi...only if all the others there see that thread and see that there are people ready and willing to kick butt to get results....
treetog
Reply #14 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 2:16 PM
Reply #14 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 2:16 PM
http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29814&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28971&perpage=15&pagenumber=22
2 more...it seems that those guys really don´t have any criativity >
http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28971&perpage=15&pagenumber=22
2 more...it seems that those guys really don´t have any criativity >
grayhaze
Reply #15 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:08 PM
Reply #15 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:08 PM
Do we have anyone here who is able to do professional quality ports of WB skins to MSStyle format? If we can get a few people doing quality official ports of our skins, these rippers will be out of action and will have to use some creativity for a change.
Although I'm no fan of the format, and I consider it largely inferior to WB, I'd be perfectly willing to work with someone to get at least a basic port of metalX done. My only criteria would be that I have to have final say on any changes that need to be done, and that the person has the abilities and manners required to make a worthwhile port.
Although I'm no fan of the format, and I consider it largely inferior to WB, I'd be perfectly willing to work with someone to get at least a basic port of metalX done. My only criteria would be that I have to have final say on any changes that need to be done, and that the person has the abilities and manners required to make a worthwhile port.
Frogboy
Reply #16 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:20 PM
Reply #16 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:20 PM
I'd say the opposite would happen. It would just fuel rippers.
Neil Banfield
Reply #17 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:22 PM
Reply #17 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:22 PM
You may be glad to know that we are working on a method of making skin rips from WB skins much more difficult.
Obviously it will be optional, but I hope it will reduce the number of ports without permission and help protect the skin authors rights.
grayhaze: Making ports now might just give them the impression that they can threaten to port skins and then they will get high quality ports made. I.e. exactly what they want.
Obviously it will be optional, but I hope it will reduce the number of ports without permission and help protect the skin authors rights.
grayhaze: Making ports now might just give them the impression that they can threaten to port skins and then they will get high quality ports made. I.e. exactly what they want.
moshi
Reply #18 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:26 PM
Reply #18 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:26 PM
Grayhaze: the only two people that i can imagine to fit your categories are Arhra and Chaninja. but those two are original artists whose work was also ported to WindowBlinds, so i could imagine they would be rather interested in doing their own stuff. i see also a little danger in here, because i think as soon something is done for visual styles a lot of people there consider it as some kind of public domain
well i think getting in contact with Arhra or Chaninja is not such a bad idea. here are their sites at Deviantart:
http://chaninja.deviantart.com/
http://arhra.deviantart.com/
Renato: well the first one said, he would not release it without permission given. if that is true is a different story. since you are providing the link, i guess he did not contact you yet
on the second: this Outcast person offers to send a rip of Metal-X per e-mail if you ask him for it. if it is true what Frogboy said that this Neowin is a "good guy" i think it is upon time to get this person and his IP banned. that would probably hurt him most. should i ask for a copy of this rip (in my best ghetto speech), so we have proof about this?
well i think getting in contact with Arhra or Chaninja is not such a bad idea. here are their sites at Deviantart:
http://chaninja.deviantart.com/
http://arhra.deviantart.com/
Renato: well the first one said, he would not release it without permission given. if that is true is a different story. since you are providing the link, i guess he did not contact you yet
on the second: this Outcast person offers to send a rip of Metal-X per e-mail if you ask him for it. if it is true what Frogboy said that this Neowin is a "good guy" i think it is upon time to get this person and his IP banned. that would probably hurt him most. should i ask for a copy of this rip (in my best ghetto speech), so we have proof about this?
grayhaze
Reply #19 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:29 PM
Reply #19 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:29 PM
To be honest Neil, I'd rather have one high quality port than ten poor rips floating around. I investigated porting it myself after the original attempts at ripping, but I just couldn't spare the time to learn a second skinning language just to prevent rippers from stealing my work. As I only use WindowBlinds anyway, doing ports in my own time would just be a waste.
I do think that no matter what you do to try and prevent rips, there will always be those people who cut and paste out of screen grabs to create these poor imitations anyway.
I do think that no matter what you do to try and prevent rips, there will always be those people who cut and paste out of screen grabs to create these poor imitations anyway.
moshi
Reply #20 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:30 PM
Reply #20 Tuesday, June 4, 2002 4:30 PM
Neil: i don´t think that this will help. they often port just from screenshots (Pixtudio themes for example). this is just one reason for the low quality.
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Reply #1 Monday, June 3, 2002 1:46 PM
Last week their talk was about UniverseMetal. >