I'm pissed
Saturday, May 18, 2002 by davad70 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Ok, there are quite a few issues that have been on my mind for a while, and some newer ones that really have me irritated.
1. Why is it that lately this site seems to be disregarding the wishes of skinners more and more often? The majority of skinners, as well as many of the wizops/admins who are actually skinners, want to scrap the rating system. Do the wishes and requests of skinners matter to the people who run this site on this issue? Apparently not. I’ve also not come across a skinner who thinks that the libraries should be sorted by the date they were updated, but now they are. It was decided a ways back that the fair thing to do was to sort the libraries by create date. Now with the launch of WC2, we are back to sorting libraries by date of update. Why? Because Frogboy wants it that way. It doesn’t matter that most of the skinners want it another way. Frogboy wants…Frogboy gets.
2. We hear quite a lot about the heavy burden that Wincustomize has placed upon Stardock. We also hear quite a bit about how popular WC has become in the past year. I’m curious as to why this site has become so popular. Personally I think it’s popularity is mostly due to the fact that people can get skins from some of the best skinners in the world here, who give their skins freely. We also hear a lot about the fact that Wc needs to be able to support itself, and not be funded directly by Stardock. Yet it seems that Stardock will always be in control of this site and that it will never truly be a “community site”. So I ask, why shouldn’t Stardock pay for this site? It seems to me that this site is the greatest marketing tool that Stardock has. I would think that people buy Windowblinds and the other programs to be able to use the skins that they see on this site. So with the advent of the subscriber program what benefits do skinners get? Ummm, we get unlimited downloads just as we always have before. BTW, that’s the same benefit that OD (which I am also) users get also. So, the fact that I’ve submitted 15 skins since the first of the year gets me nothing. My contribution is apparently not better than Joe Blow downloader who paid $20. Joe Blow gets the skin browser, “exclusive suites”, etc. I get nothing but the privilege of downloading my skins as much as I want. J
3. Now to the issue that’s really got me pissed off to the degree that I finally am fed up. Anyone remember the GUI Olympics? Anyone remember the prizes that Frogboy stated that Honorable mention winners would receive? Let me refresh your memory. Anyone who picked up an honorable mention will get a free copy of Object Desktop (or a renewal), an Object Desktop sweat shirt, a T-shirt, a LWNinja T-shirt and some other goodies. Those who won multiple honorable mentions will be given additional Object Desktop renewals. posted by Lord Frogboy - 4/2/2002 1:07:58 PM. Well, I won an honorable mention and didn’t receive anything until I contacted them. They just forgot about me. That was no big deal to me, sometimes thing like that happen. So I got an email saying that my OD subscription was renewed and it was. Great right? Well, I waited about 2 weeks to get the other goodies that I had coming. Still didn’t get them, so I write back to ask when I would be getting all the other stuff. Basically I was told that they changed their mind and were not sending out any of the actual physical prizes. I then contacted some other skinners who won honorable mentions to see if they got their prizes. They all got their OD renewals, but no one got any of the other prizes for honorable mention prizes. After emailing Brad back he tells me that I should have gotten those other prizes (yes, I know that), and that he’ll check with the person who sent out the prizes to see whats going on. This is the same person that told me that there weren’t going to be any physical prizes given out for honorable mentions. Sounds very odd to me.
So….am I overreacting, or do I have a right to be a tad pissed?
1. Why is it that lately this site seems to be disregarding the wishes of skinners more and more often? The majority of skinners, as well as many of the wizops/admins who are actually skinners, want to scrap the rating system. Do the wishes and requests of skinners matter to the people who run this site on this issue? Apparently not. I’ve also not come across a skinner who thinks that the libraries should be sorted by the date they were updated, but now they are. It was decided a ways back that the fair thing to do was to sort the libraries by create date. Now with the launch of WC2, we are back to sorting libraries by date of update. Why? Because Frogboy wants it that way. It doesn’t matter that most of the skinners want it another way. Frogboy wants…Frogboy gets.
2. We hear quite a lot about the heavy burden that Wincustomize has placed upon Stardock. We also hear quite a bit about how popular WC has become in the past year. I’m curious as to why this site has become so popular. Personally I think it’s popularity is mostly due to the fact that people can get skins from some of the best skinners in the world here, who give their skins freely. We also hear a lot about the fact that Wc needs to be able to support itself, and not be funded directly by Stardock. Yet it seems that Stardock will always be in control of this site and that it will never truly be a “community site”. So I ask, why shouldn’t Stardock pay for this site? It seems to me that this site is the greatest marketing tool that Stardock has. I would think that people buy Windowblinds and the other programs to be able to use the skins that they see on this site. So with the advent of the subscriber program what benefits do skinners get? Ummm, we get unlimited downloads just as we always have before. BTW, that’s the same benefit that OD (which I am also) users get also. So, the fact that I’ve submitted 15 skins since the first of the year gets me nothing. My contribution is apparently not better than Joe Blow downloader who paid $20. Joe Blow gets the skin browser, “exclusive suites”, etc. I get nothing but the privilege of downloading my skins as much as I want. J
3. Now to the issue that’s really got me pissed off to the degree that I finally am fed up. Anyone remember the GUI Olympics? Anyone remember the prizes that Frogboy stated that Honorable mention winners would receive? Let me refresh your memory. Anyone who picked up an honorable mention will get a free copy of Object Desktop (or a renewal), an Object Desktop sweat shirt, a T-shirt, a LWNinja T-shirt and some other goodies. Those who won multiple honorable mentions will be given additional Object Desktop renewals. posted by Lord Frogboy - 4/2/2002 1:07:58 PM. Well, I won an honorable mention and didn’t receive anything until I contacted them. They just forgot about me. That was no big deal to me, sometimes thing like that happen. So I got an email saying that my OD subscription was renewed and it was. Great right? Well, I waited about 2 weeks to get the other goodies that I had coming. Still didn’t get them, so I write back to ask when I would be getting all the other stuff. Basically I was told that they changed their mind and were not sending out any of the actual physical prizes. I then contacted some other skinners who won honorable mentions to see if they got their prizes. They all got their OD renewals, but no one got any of the other prizes for honorable mention prizes. After emailing Brad back he tells me that I should have gotten those other prizes (yes, I know that), and that he’ll check with the person who sent out the prizes to see whats going on. This is the same person that told me that there weren’t going to be any physical prizes given out for honorable mentions. Sounds very odd to me.
So….am I overreacting, or do I have a right to be a tad pissed?
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mossedmoon
Reply #22 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:29 AM
Reply #22 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:29 AM
OK. Maybe browser bob is worth the twenty bucks. But a dinner here, a dinner there... And now we're into profits, or how much profit is required? Enough to meet the needs of the community, or enough to meet the needs of...? But this is a pond I have no desire to wade in. I know I'll end up with the browser, because I won't be able to stand being without it. All aboard! One ending comment: Reposts should not be in the top 10 downloads (ex: Sputnik and Enlightened, which have been around long enough to emass a huge following, myself included); what recent skin stands a chance against that? I won't make a snide comment on the $20 dollar meal, I'll just chuckle to myself instead.
Frogboy
Reply #23 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:42 AM
Reply #23 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:42 AM
Look Mark, that jet fuel doesn't pay for itself and our gold houses and rocket cars aren't free. Come on, give me a break, you think we live in mansions? If you really think there is big money to be made running a skin site or writing skinnable software then by all means, you should go out and start doing it.
SpikeTagger
Reply #24 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:46 AM
Reply #24 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:46 AM
You Know What I Think Ur All A Bunch Of Whining Little B*tches i agree on most of these points but this man does have alife and other things to do doesnt he?(if he doesnt im dorry and apologize) but its alot of hard work to keep up with a site trust me i have one (greenwoodconst.com im maintainer not creator) and maintaining a site is hard without people telling u what to do. i got my 2 cents in so im done ttyl
SpikeTagger
Reply #25 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:47 AM
Reply #25 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:47 AM
correction on spelling. ?(if he doesnt im sorry and I apologize)
bmetelsky
Reply #26 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
Reply #26 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:49 AM
I have never seen Frogboy act so childish as I have in this thread. I have often defended his words and thoughts on other boards. I hope this issue gets resolved and that folks don't get too heated over it. Sometimes it's best to wait before responding out of anger or frustration.
mossedmoon
Reply #27 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:51 AM
Reply #27 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:51 AM
I apologise. Sometimes the imp in me gets to say too much. But removing SABERTOOTH from the newest list does nothing but sadden me for many reasons...
Frogboy
Reply #28 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:54 AM
Reply #28 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:54 AM
Great, now I'm "childish".
Fine, I'm done with this thread.
Fine, I'm done with this thread.
bmetelsky
Reply #30 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:00 AM
Reply #30 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:00 AM
That was my observation based on some of the statements you were making - i.e.
"And just to demonstrate clearly that the GUI Olympics is not a marketing ploy, to that I say, fine, screw it. No more GUI Olympics. Forget the summer GUI Olympics. Because it was 90% an act of good will towards "the community" and all I've gotten is personal attacks and grief from it. So screw it."
"And just to demonstrate clearly that the GUI Olympics is not a marketing ploy, to that I say, fine, screw it. No more GUI Olympics. Forget the summer GUI Olympics. Because it was 90% an act of good will towards "the community" and all I've gotten is personal attacks and grief from it. So screw it."
bmetelsky
Reply #31 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:04 AM
Reply #31 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:04 AM
BTW - I have been an avid supporter of first the OBDN and more recently just Windowblinds. I participated through voting during part of the GUI Olympics. I support this site and come here most frequently because it is, in my opinion, the best place for what I am looking for. I am not bashing you, Brad, or anybody else here. I just think that there are a few problems that need to be worked out. Tempers flare and words fly, sometimes too quickly.
mossedmoon
Reply #33 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:12 AM
Reply #33 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:12 AM
Taking my skins off the newest list is trite to say the least, and paramont to hitting someone that can't hit back. WinCustomize has always been my prefered site since its inception, but after your actions tonight, not your words, but your acts, perhaps what davad70 says is true. Why don't you go a step further and remove all of my skins entirely?
Frogboy
Reply #34 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:33 AM
Reply #34 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:33 AM
Sigh okay, one last time just to reach a conclusion on this stuff:
Yes, I came up with the GUI Olympics. But since its inception I have been the target of an immense amount of grief in the form of personal attacks and behavior targeted at me or Stardock that I can't term as anything but near psychosis. I had Shoggot calling me "Evil". I had to deal with a "Consortium" that wanted to change the rules after the fact so that the skin sites (the ones who would receive half the money) would have almost total control over the distribution. I had skinners emailing things that you hopefully can't imagine. I had contestants screaming bloody murder about all sorts of minute details that simply couldn't have been forseen. And on top of that, I've had people say that what should be an obvious act of good will towards "The community" was some sort of elaborate marketing scam.
Now add to that the grief on the apparent fact that some t-shirts and other items weren't sent out (and apparently CR decided not to send them out which I'll have to look into) is turned into some sort of we don't care about skinners allegation and the net result is this: It's not any fun anymore. I did the GUI Olympics in my spare time. I don't have a lot of that. I have 2 small children and a wife and I spent a ridiculous amount of free time organizing and working on the GUI Olympics. Heck, that Consortium/Shoggot nonsense ate up literally a week of my life. It's not worth it. It's not worth doing if all one gets is grief. All I've seen are complaints and allegations. It gets tiresome having non-business people making arguments that the GUI Olympics was some sort of marketing scam.
At the end of the day, one has to ask, is it worth it? No. It's not. This "community" is full of people with big ideas and grand plans but lack the will to actually put forth those plans into concrete action. And when someone else does, they are usually the first people not to help but to attack it snipe at it (no one in this thread matches that description).
This thread is a good thing because it really reminds me that doing things like the GUI Olympics just aren't a good idea. There are just too many headaches. Businesses need to behave like businesses. The GUI Olympics was not a business venture, it was essentially a well organized altruistic hobbiest activity by a corporation. Corporations can't have hobbies. People generally cannot picture corporations doing something strictly because it's nice or fun or good. So they invent business reasons why the corporation do it.
It was a mistake for Stardock to do an altruistic thing like the GUI Olympics because people cannot accept altruism from corporations. Therefore, the reasonable course is that such contests should be done by volunteers. Or if the contest is going to be organized by a corporation it has to be done in a way that directly beneficial to the corporation (i.e. where it generates greater revenue than it costs). And while non-business people think that there are just millions and millions of dollars pouring into software developers, the fact is, the GUI Olympics was an expensive altruistic act that required a considerable amount of volunteer effort by people at Stardock (notably me and Pat).
I am no longer willing to volunteer for such a thing because of the grief involved. And Stardock should not be doing altruistic things because usres cannot accept altruism from companies. This isn't "childish". It may seem that way to those who may take things like the GUI Olympics for granted. An act that can be described as "cutting your nose to spite ones face" is a childish act. Not doing something that causes more grief than benefit is not childish, it's just plain sanity.
If someone else wants to do some contest at some other domain, I'll happily support them. I just don't want to be involved. I hope that puts things into perspective.
Yes, I came up with the GUI Olympics. But since its inception I have been the target of an immense amount of grief in the form of personal attacks and behavior targeted at me or Stardock that I can't term as anything but near psychosis. I had Shoggot calling me "Evil". I had to deal with a "Consortium" that wanted to change the rules after the fact so that the skin sites (the ones who would receive half the money) would have almost total control over the distribution. I had skinners emailing things that you hopefully can't imagine. I had contestants screaming bloody murder about all sorts of minute details that simply couldn't have been forseen. And on top of that, I've had people say that what should be an obvious act of good will towards "The community" was some sort of elaborate marketing scam.
Now add to that the grief on the apparent fact that some t-shirts and other items weren't sent out (and apparently CR decided not to send them out which I'll have to look into) is turned into some sort of we don't care about skinners allegation and the net result is this: It's not any fun anymore. I did the GUI Olympics in my spare time. I don't have a lot of that. I have 2 small children and a wife and I spent a ridiculous amount of free time organizing and working on the GUI Olympics. Heck, that Consortium/Shoggot nonsense ate up literally a week of my life. It's not worth it. It's not worth doing if all one gets is grief. All I've seen are complaints and allegations. It gets tiresome having non-business people making arguments that the GUI Olympics was some sort of marketing scam.
At the end of the day, one has to ask, is it worth it? No. It's not. This "community" is full of people with big ideas and grand plans but lack the will to actually put forth those plans into concrete action. And when someone else does, they are usually the first people not to help but to attack it snipe at it (no one in this thread matches that description).
This thread is a good thing because it really reminds me that doing things like the GUI Olympics just aren't a good idea. There are just too many headaches. Businesses need to behave like businesses. The GUI Olympics was not a business venture, it was essentially a well organized altruistic hobbiest activity by a corporation. Corporations can't have hobbies. People generally cannot picture corporations doing something strictly because it's nice or fun or good. So they invent business reasons why the corporation do it.
It was a mistake for Stardock to do an altruistic thing like the GUI Olympics because people cannot accept altruism from corporations. Therefore, the reasonable course is that such contests should be done by volunteers. Or if the contest is going to be organized by a corporation it has to be done in a way that directly beneficial to the corporation (i.e. where it generates greater revenue than it costs). And while non-business people think that there are just millions and millions of dollars pouring into software developers, the fact is, the GUI Olympics was an expensive altruistic act that required a considerable amount of volunteer effort by people at Stardock (notably me and Pat).
I am no longer willing to volunteer for such a thing because of the grief involved. And Stardock should not be doing altruistic things because usres cannot accept altruism from companies. This isn't "childish". It may seem that way to those who may take things like the GUI Olympics for granted. An act that can be described as "cutting your nose to spite ones face" is a childish act. Not doing something that causes more grief than benefit is not childish, it's just plain sanity.
If someone else wants to do some contest at some other domain, I'll happily support them. I just don't want to be involved. I hope that puts things into perspective.
bmetelsky
Reply #37 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:41 AM
Reply #37 Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:41 AM
Brad,
For the record - I am not/have not been bashing the GUI Olympics. I thought it went off great given all of the issues that you mentioned above. I do pay attention to what is going on in the community and feel for the grief that you have put up with on several fronts. Having said that - I was only referring to the way that you postured yourself when responding to this thread. Volunteer or don't volunteer in another GUI Olympics. The choice is yours and yours alone I suppose. I appreciate all of the hard work you do.
For the record - I am not/have not been bashing the GUI Olympics. I thought it went off great given all of the issues that you mentioned above. I do pay attention to what is going on in the community and feel for the grief that you have put up with on several fronts. Having said that - I was only referring to the way that you postured yourself when responding to this thread. Volunteer or don't volunteer in another GUI Olympics. The choice is yours and yours alone I suppose. I appreciate all of the hard work you do.
Alexandrie
Reply #38 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:07 AM
Reply #38 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:07 AM
please guys this kind of things can be solved with emails
Frogboy
Reply #39 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:07 AM
Reply #39 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:07 AM
I understand what you are saying and where you're coming from. Hopefully my previous response clarifies where I am coming from. 
migellito
Reply #40 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:18 AM
Reply #40 Sunday, May 19, 2002 2:18 AM
and here i was hoping for a hippy-style thread about excessive drinking...
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Reply #21 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:29 AM
I am going to refrain from commenting on this thread.
Sometimes I just feel like I can't be bothered anymore.