Or 'simple', even...trust me not to have my glasses on...

As long as we're still kicking this around, I'd like to clear up a summary of my opinion that was posted. While I did suggest a no-comment-no-rating approach or a vindictive rating watch as potential ways of improving the system, in no way did I feel the system _needed_ changing.

My primary concern is that people download and use my stuff, secondary is comments, so I can improve my work, and last is rating. If I let ratings determine whether I continued skinning, I would have stopped skinning along time ago. Anyone who saw my early efforts in Litestep would probably concur.

jcg: Ratings determine who downloads and uses your stuff. If it's rated 1, nobody who's not logged in will see it, and those who do won't want it.

Just to add my $0.02, I don't rate things very often but when I do I always try to leave a comment too. Mostly because if it's good enough (sorry, I only rate ones I like not those that I dislike) for me to rate, then I definitely have a couple of things to say about it.

The other reason that I tend not to rate things is that frankly it's kind of cumbersome since the comments/ratings are separated. I have to either bring up the screen twice or remember to click on both submit buttons. I can't tell you how many times I've entered a comment and a rating and then only remembered to click one of the submit buttons. To me at least the interface could be improved slightly. I'd like to be able to submit a rating and a comment in one fell swoop.

Perhaps I am just having a brain fart, but I never see any ratings on stuff. I noticed that the featured wall has a rating of 10 but when I go to that wall's section there is nothing about a rating there.

Aside from featured skins, ratings are only visible to Apprentice and up level users. You're not missing much by not seeing them..trust me.

jcg, listen to TheGreenReaper

I am still wondering, why is it so difficult to improve this System Rating ???

Why we have to go on this argument on and on ?

What is happening?

It's not exactly an 'argument', adni...more a discussion between site members/contributors as inclusive involvement in determining current and future policy direction...

Jafo feels like he's wearing a suit and tie in a board-room...making effusive comments like that...

Let's 'DO' lunch....

"Aside from featured skins, ratings are only visible to Apprentice and up level users."

Then what is the big deal? 95%+ of the users are never going to see them or even know about them. If that many people can't see them why bother having them?

Actually the more I think about it the madder I get. I can't even see what ratings my own skins have! That is stupid and elitist. Not sure that I care for a site that has that attitude. "We can see it and you can't." What bullshit!

I thought that "argument" and "discussion" were synonyms, aren't they, Jafo?

I like your suit and the tie specially!

Ok, first and foremost. I support the rating system. I feel that the system works. I feel this way because If I go sort by ratings I'm very confident that I am going to find good skins. However, if I sort by downloads overall I may find skins that have just been around along time and are not particulary great. If I sort by Downloads Today I may only find stuff that was just uploaded and is not that great. But when I sort on Ratings, guess what, I find good skins.

Is the system perfect? No. Can it be approved upon? Yes

Before I get into some of the major details I just wanted to point out that yes Contributors does not equal Saints. And to the same respect, Contributors does not equal Evil Doers. It seems to be assumed that most people who rate skins are doing it maliciously. Though there may be a few who abuse the system I would tend to believe that most people are fair and honest with their ratings.

Now as several of you have stated, part of the problem is the lack of ratings. First off, the skins are rated by my fellow administrators, who I think do an awesome job. In the past it has been suggested that we just use the admins rating. But as its been pointed out many of times everyone has different tastes so why should the admins rating be final? If we can get other people to rate it as well then it just makes the whole rating system better.
Now there are several reasons as to why the ratings are low: Most people don't have access to it, Some people may not know about it, others may not want to click on the extra link in order rate a skin out of laziness, others simply dont care, some dont like the system and lastly, are current system clears all previous ratings when you update your skin.

So what have do done?

1) Upon updating your skin all ratings used to get thrown away. We don't do this now. We keep the old ratings. So this will help skins have more ratings overall.

2) Upon viewing a single skin, the comments and rating are displayed right along with the skin. Thus making it easier to comment and rate. And hopefully the visibility will encourage people to comment and rate more often.

What will be done:

3) Comments and Ratings will be merged into one form, so one submit can handle them both. BUT it will NOT be required to comment if you rate a skin. But by virtue of having them in the same form the likeness of someone rating a skin when the comment should increase.

What may be done:

4) We may add the submission of rating on all skin views. This would help increase ratings because you don't have to click on a link to get to the "comments/rating" page. Again, more visibility would probably mean more ratings.

So we have done some work to improve the rating system. We have not implemented every idea out there simply because we don't agree on everything. So we are trying to approach a happy middle ground that will make everyone happy. And I think by the changes above that we taken a few steps closer to reaching a common ground.

Now in regards to the rating system as a whole lets look at it another way, there are several ways that a person can judge a skin.

1) by the number of downloads
2) by the user rating
3) by the comments people put
4) by the screenshot

Not any one single one of them will be the BEST way or PROPER way because Everyone has a different view and opinion. The rating system is just one of serveral in which you can use to filter skins. It also just happens to be main part of Wincustomize's filtering. If you are looking at the rating and asking "How can I make my skin better based on this rating?" then yes, it wont work for you because it does not provide that type of information nor is it supposed to. Thats what the comments are for. But if you want to find a skin that is good based on what other people think then yes, the system works. Even if there is only 1 vote.

Well, I'm starting to lose focus so I'm going to end it here.

OMG, was I just taken over by the spirit of the long winded frogboy?!

Griffinme - take it from somebody who knows, ratings are over rated. Comments are what counts. Besides, you're a registered user, you should be able to see your ratings. Check out the "About" link https://www.wincustomize.com/about.asp its clear on that point. Only Visitors can't see the ratings.

"Visitors.....They can only download skins that have been rated at 7 or above."

"Citizens can modify their preferences to display skins of any rating or above"
I get to see all skins but don't get to see their rating.


Let me put it this way. George and I are in second grade. We take tests, do homework, and study. One important differance between George and me is he gets all his tests and homework back with a grade and he gets a report card. I don't. At the end of the year who do you think moves on to third grade and who doesn't?

Is there a reason why citizens aren't allowed to see the ratings? Are we considered too delicate to handle them? People might complain about why they got X rating? If they are unimportant why are they still there?

Still irks me.

T-Man > "First off, the skins are rated by my fellow administrators, who I think do an awesome job."

Is it this sites policy for admins to make a point of rating and commenting on submissions?

If that is the case, then in my experience it's not being done. Obviously my experience is mostly limited to Windowblinds/XP Skins, but I see very few comments from admins. I see very few comments from admins. I also see many many skins that have no ratings at all therefore preventing those skins from being seen by visitors. I've personally submitted just about as many WB skins as anyone on this site since the beginning of the year, and I could probably count on one hand the number of comments from admins/wizops.

It seems that almost everyone agrees that there is a problem with a lack of comments being made. Therefore, why don't the admins/wizops here take the lead and start setting an example for the rest of us?

While it is true that if you sort skins by rating (descending) you will see pretty much all good skins, if you resort them going from the bottom up you will also find some good skins. Try it and you will be amazed at the number of quality works that have been bombed.

I was kinda peeved a few weeks back when a particular skin of mine was Daily Deviation at DA and Featured Skin, but was rated a 4 here at WC. Obviously different people and have different tastes, but it was a bit disturbing to know that my skin was probably now even being seen by many members here due to the rating.

I know that this discussion will not lead to much, just as it hasn't the numerous times it's been discussed before. However, it would be nice for once though if the "wish" of the many artists was respected as opposed to the "will" of the few.

I've heard the argument several times in the past year that...."...it's Brad/Stardock's choice to do as they please because they're footing the bill."

My question is this, will this change once we all switch from community members/contributors to paying customers/subscribers?

Hi Pat
I must admit that with all that you have mention above, will be an improvement of the system rating, specially with what concerns the old ratings

Still there is no way for the authors to avoid the malicious rates; I hope that someone will find some way for that, forasmuch as it looks, the opinions from this thread are not pleasing the ones who are deciding.
Hoping for the best, we are waiting

Listen to Davad70

Any way, I don't believe that the ratings are having any effect on downloads and the bandwidth in general, the only effect that they have, are on authors feelings, but who cares...

Davad70 brought up a good point. If everyone is paying to become a member does that mean that
everyone is equal. If so, why do you need someone rating someone else’s skins! If I pay my money to
upload that should be good enough. Let the comments be the guide.

I can almost feel the down fall of a good site. I would hate to see that happen.

The only way for a citizen to have any idea of there ratings, is to set there preference to a 5. If there
skins do not show up then they know their a 4 and below. There again, if they are going to pay there
money they should know. I feel we may be opening up a new can of worms.