The Old Guard vs. New Blood
Wednesday, May 1, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I originally wrote this on Deskmod but wanted to hear your views...
Deskmod's poll on how long youv'e been using skins is really encouraging.
The results so far:
I'm new: (>1 year): 36%
Experienced (1-2 years): 29%
Elder: (3-4 years): 23%
Old guard (4+): 12%
As someone who fits into the oldie (been skinning UI's since 1991 and professionally since 1995) it's really encouraging to see that it's a growing thing.
It always bugs me when people try to compare computers to toasters or some other appliance. I don't know about you but I don't spend hours using a toaster (unless my wife is out of town ).
Of all the things that we personalize, cars, phones, homes, etc. it's odd that making computers personalized to how we use them isn't even a bigger phenomenon. As someone who spends more hours in front of the computer than I care to admit, I can't imagine tweaking it to work the way I want. And believe me, my desktops get pretty crazy depending on what I"m doing that week.
36% of users being new. Now that's the best thing I've heard in awhile.
Anyone care to venture a prediction on whether skinning (extreme computer personalization) will become so common and mainstream that people will take it for granted?
Well, gotta go, something's burning in the toaster!
Deskmod's poll on how long youv'e been using skins is really encouraging.
The results so far:
I'm new: (>1 year): 36%
Experienced (1-2 years): 29%
Elder: (3-4 years): 23%
Old guard (4+): 12%
As someone who fits into the oldie (been skinning UI's since 1991 and professionally since 1995) it's really encouraging to see that it's a growing thing.
It always bugs me when people try to compare computers to toasters or some other appliance. I don't know about you but I don't spend hours using a toaster (unless my wife is out of town ).
Of all the things that we personalize, cars, phones, homes, etc. it's odd that making computers personalized to how we use them isn't even a bigger phenomenon. As someone who spends more hours in front of the computer than I care to admit, I can't imagine tweaking it to work the way I want. And believe me, my desktops get pretty crazy depending on what I"m doing that week.
36% of users being new. Now that's the best thing I've heard in awhile.
Anyone care to venture a prediction on whether skinning (extreme computer personalization) will become so common and mainstream that people will take it for granted?
Well, gotta go, something's burning in the toaster!
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craeonics
Reply #3 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:00 AM
Reply #3 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:00 AM
Them newbies these days don't respect no decent skin no more, all out imitating the others and persueing them *cough* *choke* photoskins. Now when I was young, people used to spend blood and sweat on things, but to them youngsters its just instant gratification.
Nurse, time for my nap!
Nurse, time for my nap!
shoggot
Reply #4 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 6:14 AM
Reply #4 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 6:14 AM
I actually agree with what crae said there -whether or not he meant it in sarcasm.
It used to be -hard- to skin. There were no skinmaker apps, no helper apps. Applications didn't load your parts of your skin for you nicely - you had to beat them into submission, editing text files. If you made a typo, it'd crash - and half the time bring the OS down with it.
So, it took a heavy commitment to skin anything - and the photoskinners, as a generalized rule, weren't willing to put in that kind of time. Hence, we had no photoskins (thank you ICQ+ for changing all that).
Tying into the anti-custo thread, the real reason for custo / skinz success back in the day was the quality of product they offered - and since skinning was a chore, pretty much -all- of the product at the time was high quality. Dedicated people poured their souls into making the best skins possible.
Now, it's child's play to make a decent looking skin - and as a result, it seems like less thought is put into them. It used to be that people would spend weeks testing a single skin, getting others to try it, getting bug reports, etc, before releasing it on one of the sites. These things had thought in their design - they didn't just -look- cool - they -functioned- cool as well.
That seems to be missing today. So now, we have scads more artists - yippee. But it feels like each is only expending 1/100th of the effort I used to see.
Yes, they produce more product. But in the finally tally, I'd rather have one cherry Galaxie 500 than 50 hyundai's.
I'd currently say that litestep is the only arena left where this level of dedication still exists.
(if this was slashdot, this'd be where i'd insert the obligatory "mod me down, -1 unpopular opinion")
It used to be -hard- to skin. There were no skinmaker apps, no helper apps. Applications didn't load your parts of your skin for you nicely - you had to beat them into submission, editing text files. If you made a typo, it'd crash - and half the time bring the OS down with it.
So, it took a heavy commitment to skin anything - and the photoskinners, as a generalized rule, weren't willing to put in that kind of time. Hence, we had no photoskins (thank you ICQ+ for changing all that).
Tying into the anti-custo thread, the real reason for custo / skinz success back in the day was the quality of product they offered - and since skinning was a chore, pretty much -all- of the product at the time was high quality. Dedicated people poured their souls into making the best skins possible.
Now, it's child's play to make a decent looking skin - and as a result, it seems like less thought is put into them. It used to be that people would spend weeks testing a single skin, getting others to try it, getting bug reports, etc, before releasing it on one of the sites. These things had thought in their design - they didn't just -look- cool - they -functioned- cool as well.
That seems to be missing today. So now, we have scads more artists - yippee. But it feels like each is only expending 1/100th of the effort I used to see.
Yes, they produce more product. But in the finally tally, I'd rather have one cherry Galaxie 500 than 50 hyundai's.
I'd currently say that litestep is the only arena left where this level of dedication still exists.
(if this was slashdot, this'd be where i'd insert the obligatory "mod me down, -1 unpopular opinion")
craeonics
Reply #5 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:13 AM
Reply #5 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:13 AM
The serious answer can be found at DeskMod: http://deskmod.com/?show=forum&thread_id=696 (I was just toying here).
To me, one of the interesting parts of this "skinning" was to bend the rules and make the desktop look the way I wanted it to be. I curretly see a sort of divide between skinning and shells, but back when I started, it was all the same.
Back then it was "hurray, a new skinnable clock", because we didn't have that many (or none) of those. Nowadays, it's "oh joy, look another skinnable clock, how refreshing" (that was sarcasm by the way).
There's still plenty of challenge though. Especially with all these new advanced audioplayers (WinAmp3/Sonique2).
To me, one of the interesting parts of this "skinning" was to bend the rules and make the desktop look the way I wanted it to be. I curretly see a sort of divide between skinning and shells, but back when I started, it was all the same.
Back then it was "hurray, a new skinnable clock", because we didn't have that many (or none) of those. Nowadays, it's "oh joy, look another skinnable clock, how refreshing" (that was sarcasm by the way).
There's still plenty of challenge though. Especially with all these new advanced audioplayers (WinAmp3/Sonique2).
Jafo
Reply #6 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:00 AM
Reply #6 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:00 AM
Shog...you're dead right there...
My only fear is that with LiteSTEP and the new OTS we could see one of the last bastions of 'complicated, involved effort' in skinning go down the gurgler.
All these newbies creating themes like painting with numbers....Use an installer...use this format...use this dev-build release...watch out for odd modules...they won't work...oh, goodie, another blue one with a single bar....
There was many a time I'd be accessing my OS via a back door [shuffling drive caddies] because the latest 'experiment' had fragged my system totally and I couldn't even get to Dos to cure things...
Yep, them young-uns have got it easy....shoes?...you got shoes?....why, back in my day we were thankful just to have feet...
My only fear is that with LiteSTEP and the new OTS we could see one of the last bastions of 'complicated, involved effort' in skinning go down the gurgler.
All these newbies creating themes like painting with numbers....Use an installer...use this format...use this dev-build release...watch out for odd modules...they won't work...oh, goodie, another blue one with a single bar....
There was many a time I'd be accessing my OS via a back door [shuffling drive caddies] because the latest 'experiment' had fragged my system totally and I couldn't even get to Dos to cure things...
Yep, them young-uns have got it easy....shoes?...you got shoes?....why, back in my day we were thankful just to have feet...
shoggot
Reply #7 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:14 AM
Reply #7 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:14 AM
you had feet?!?
When LS eventually goes the way of icq+, there'll be others. graphite 2, perhaps. juice may come back to life. someone may find the source to reveal, and update it a tad.
e-sense part deux! Wouldn't that be a kick...
When LS eventually goes the way of icq+, there'll be others. graphite 2, perhaps. juice may come back to life. someone may find the source to reveal, and update it a tad.
e-sense part deux! Wouldn't that be a kick...
Jafo
Reply #8 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:35 AM
Reply #8 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:35 AM
Ok....'foot'...
I've been hooked on LS for so long I haven't looked at another shell in ages....[faithful, huh?]...but I used to check each and every one of them out at one time or another...at one stage I made it to 22 separate shells in one OS...[mostly separate LS builds], but all sorts of 'junk'.
None really grabbed me the same way...
I've been hooked on LS for so long I haven't looked at another shell in ages....[faithful, huh?]...but I used to check each and every one of them out at one time or another...at one stage I made it to 22 separate shells in one OS...[mostly separate LS builds], but all sorts of 'junk'.
None really grabbed me the same way...
craeonics
Reply #9 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:24 AM
Reply #9 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:24 AM
Mmmm... Juice... Damn vaporware!! Getting me all excited over sky castles...
Doreen
Reply #10 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:27 AM
Reply #10 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:27 AM
Who cares about the skins? it's all about the msg boards! that's where all the juicy stuff about skinning is (well it use to be)
you could read and learn all kinds of stuff there "even" if you yourself had no talent to make something decent, it was interesting to read about the ones that could...
for me I "Despise" being told what to wear so that carries over to my Desktop too, I want to dress my Desktop the way "I" want not the way MS tells me too.
you could read and learn all kinds of stuff there "even" if you yourself had no talent to make something decent, it was interesting to read about the ones that could...
for me I "Despise" being told what to wear so that carries over to my Desktop too, I want to dress my Desktop the way "I" want not the way MS tells me too.
darwn23
Reply #11 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:36 AM
Reply #11 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:36 AM
why does it have to be about who has it easier or not, skins are skins there are going to be good ones and there are going to be bad ones, dont turn this into a "Oh sonny when i was your age i use to walk 40 miles to school and 40 miles back in the snow".. c'mon that is just sooooo silly, change is good, quit dwelling in the past and move on
Doreen
Reply #12 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:47 AM
Reply #12 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:47 AM
actually that is a pretty good point darwn...
some ppl feel threatened by change, icq has always had the oportunity to be skinned right, some had and do prove it all the time (I'm not one of them so I stopped embarrassing myself there) hehe
but all programs old and new will continue to be skinned good and bad always, no matter the ease or evolution of it.
some ppl feel threatened by change, icq has always had the oportunity to be skinned right, some had and do prove it all the time (I'm not one of them so I stopped embarrassing myself there) hehe
but all programs old and new will continue to be skinned good and bad always, no matter the ease or evolution of it.
craeonics
Reply #13 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:59 AM
Reply #13 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 9:59 AM
Hmm, Guru Doreen? The old design adagium says: "standing still is moving backwards" (okay, so it falls apart when translated, possible other translation: conservatism is decay).
Doreen
Reply #14 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:02 AM
Reply #14 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:02 AM
exactly! change is good and healthy, (as long as "I" get to stand still "right in the middle of it" and don't have to change w/ it physically) hehe
let the world evolve, just let my time stand still
let the world evolve, just let my time stand still
Jafo
Reply #15 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:04 AM
Reply #15 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:04 AM
'SNOW"?...Heck, we would have been glad to have 'snow'....back when I was a lad.....
paxx
Reply #16 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:31 AM
Reply #16 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:31 AM
I personnaly don't agree that the more the users the better.
I know that for Stardock it's good news, they make money with it.
But it seems as skinning becomes more popular we get more of the:
- "Ok, how does this work. I need somebody to write me a 30 pages tutorail for tomorrow, my ICQ number is 2348437263494587265384!"
- "Hey, man, your skins a cool! Make me a red version and email it to me at [email protected]"
And I won't mention that new users take it for granted, and hardly ever give comments.
I used to receive tons of great emails with every new skins I released. I'm not talking about requests or calls for help, but just a simple "Wow, I just doesnload ed your X skins, and it's fabulous. I love it. Great work, thank you!"
When is the last time you got one of these? It's been ages for me. And the comments that are left on the skins sites usually come from other fellow skinners and never from the casual downloader anymore.
Anyway. End of rant.
I know that for Stardock it's good news, they make money with it.
But it seems as skinning becomes more popular we get more of the:
- "Ok, how does this work. I need somebody to write me a 30 pages tutorail for tomorrow, my ICQ number is 2348437263494587265384!"
- "Hey, man, your skins a cool! Make me a red version and email it to me at [email protected]"
And I won't mention that new users take it for granted, and hardly ever give comments.
I used to receive tons of great emails with every new skins I released. I'm not talking about requests or calls for help, but just a simple "Wow, I just doesnload ed your X skins, and it's fabulous. I love it. Great work, thank you!"
When is the last time you got one of these? It's been ages for me. And the comments that are left on the skins sites usually come from other fellow skinners and never from the casual downloader anymore.
Anyway. End of rant.
Griffinme
Reply #17 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:32 AM
Reply #17 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:32 AM
This discussion reminds me of my dad when he talks about programming, "Why back in my day a program larger then a couple of K was considered bloatware made by a programmer that was lazy."
Doreen
Reply #18 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:39 AM
Reply #18 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:39 AM
paxxy I think it has to do w/ the amount of skinning sites around now, things will never really be as intimate as they once were...
Doreen
Reply #19 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:42 AM
Reply #19 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:42 AM
more of the sites are tighter linked and it's like Disneyland, you go from ride to ride, "no time to really notice" one ride was all that, when you got 50 more to jump on...
GreenReaper
Reply #20 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:49 AM
Reply #20 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:49 AM
It's a good thing, overall. I'm sure of it. The best prior example of this situation I can think of is books. It used to be that each book had to be painstakingly drawn with meticulous detail by monks. If you wanted a nice illustrated copy of the Bible, you'd better get your order in - it'd take a year to arrive, and you'd probably have to pay through the nose for it, too. Then, along came the printing press. Suddenly books were, if not free, available to anyone with a moderate effort. The rest is history.
Of course, most of the early printed books weren't original - they were variations on religious works, hymn collections and the like. Even before the press, many original (secular) books had been created, but they were restricted by the same distribution problems, so they never became popular, and it was a time before they were regularly printed too.
Nowadays, there's a Bible in just every other hotel room (I found one in my student room, even). There's a lot of really bad novels, too. But there are also works of true artistry, like "The Lord of the Rings", and everyone can enjoy them, and perhaps hope to make their own.
I think you'll agree that was slightly rambling, but my point is that technology is a tool. What I think people should be looking at is the *number* of good skinners and the number of good skins out there. Say half the WB skins out there are purely useless (and I wouldn't). That still means there are 800 skins of worth. I don't think there would be half that number without SkinStudio, and they *wouldn't* all be great.
Skinning tools are incredibly useful, especially for getting new blood into skinning. And at the end of it all, skinning's little use if people can't participate in it. Personally, I still use notepad, beta-test my skins before release and agonize over every update. But that's just me, and I don't end up producing many skins.
Of course, most of the early printed books weren't original - they were variations on religious works, hymn collections and the like. Even before the press, many original (secular) books had been created, but they were restricted by the same distribution problems, so they never became popular, and it was a time before they were regularly printed too.
Nowadays, there's a Bible in just every other hotel room (I found one in my student room, even). There's a lot of really bad novels, too. But there are also works of true artistry, like "The Lord of the Rings", and everyone can enjoy them, and perhaps hope to make their own.
I think you'll agree that was slightly rambling, but my point is that technology is a tool. What I think people should be looking at is the *number* of good skinners and the number of good skins out there. Say half the WB skins out there are purely useless (and I wouldn't). That still means there are 800 skins of worth. I don't think there would be half that number without SkinStudio, and they *wouldn't* all be great.
Skinning tools are incredibly useful, especially for getting new blood into skinning. And at the end of it all, skinning's little use if people can't participate in it. Personally, I still use notepad, beta-test my skins before release and agonize over every update. But that's just me, and I don't end up producing many skins.
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Reply #1 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:21 AM
I do have the distinction of having gotten an email from Doreen asking for a background image to one of my skins in '99 before anyone knew who she was...
so, am I an elder or an older?