The Old Guard vs. New Blood
Wednesday, May 1, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I originally wrote this on Deskmod but wanted to hear your views...
Deskmod's poll on how long youv'e been using skins is really encouraging.
The results so far:
I'm new: (>1 year): 36%
Experienced (1-2 years): 29%
Elder: (3-4 years): 23%
Old guard (4+): 12%
As someone who fits into the oldie (been skinning UI's since 1991 and professionally since 1995) it's really encouraging to see that it's a growing thing.
It always bugs me when people try to compare computers to toasters or some other appliance. I don't know about you but I don't spend hours using a toaster (unless my wife is out of town ).
Of all the things that we personalize, cars, phones, homes, etc. it's odd that making computers personalized to how we use them isn't even a bigger phenomenon. As someone who spends more hours in front of the computer than I care to admit, I can't imagine tweaking it to work the way I want. And believe me, my desktops get pretty crazy depending on what I"m doing that week.
36% of users being new. Now that's the best thing I've heard in awhile.
Anyone care to venture a prediction on whether skinning (extreme computer personalization) will become so common and mainstream that people will take it for granted?
Well, gotta go, something's burning in the toaster!
Deskmod's poll on how long youv'e been using skins is really encouraging.
The results so far:
I'm new: (>1 year): 36%
Experienced (1-2 years): 29%
Elder: (3-4 years): 23%
Old guard (4+): 12%
As someone who fits into the oldie (been skinning UI's since 1991 and professionally since 1995) it's really encouraging to see that it's a growing thing.
It always bugs me when people try to compare computers to toasters or some other appliance. I don't know about you but I don't spend hours using a toaster (unless my wife is out of town ).
Of all the things that we personalize, cars, phones, homes, etc. it's odd that making computers personalized to how we use them isn't even a bigger phenomenon. As someone who spends more hours in front of the computer than I care to admit, I can't imagine tweaking it to work the way I want. And believe me, my desktops get pretty crazy depending on what I"m doing that week.
36% of users being new. Now that's the best thing I've heard in awhile.
Anyone care to venture a prediction on whether skinning (extreme computer personalization) will become so common and mainstream that people will take it for granted?
Well, gotta go, something's burning in the toaster!
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Doreen
Reply #22 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:04 AM
Reply #22 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:04 AM
I have to confess even I have gotten lazy helping ppl too 
I do try when I see something that does not take too long an answer and since I admin on LOS I put more effort there though I try everywhere I can on occassion, I'd rather relax and read and harrass not help these day... (I'm so evil) hehe
I do try when I see something that does not take too long an answer and since I admin on LOS I put more effort there though I try everywhere I can on occassion, I'd rather relax and read and harrass not help these day... (I'm so evil) hehe
p e d
Reply #23 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:50 AM
Reply #23 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:50 AM
I have been interested in skinning from about the time Skinz.org took the plunge. Some of my earlier skins I posted here but soon realised they were of the 'bad' quality you guys are refering to. Have started several skins since then but they never get posted as I realize they are not 'Quality'.
All I'm saying is that you guys are a tough crowd to break into, but without your help us newbies will find it hard to create 'Quality'.
All I'm saying is that you guys are a tough crowd to break into, but without your help us newbies will find it hard to create 'Quality'.
darwn23
Reply #24 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:55 AM
Reply #24 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 11:55 AM
Hyphen is right about that, its all about help.. even the best skinners got some form of help to be able to create the quality they do now, why not let it rub off on the rest of the new people around or do you want it to be where you are the only that know how to do make something. Thats kind of selfish and not "community like"
Doreen
Reply #25 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:06 PM
Reply #25 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:06 PM
In regards to me helping to help others make "Quality Skinz" nah I'd be no help at all...
My kinda help is usually: Q: "Where is the Bathroom?"
A: "Around the corner on the right"
answering those questions gets boring for me and my knowledge of "Pro Graphic Apps" is nadda and not my forte...
another words only ask me how can I install this icq plus skin? and I might help you... hehe
(If it's not the 100th time I ran across it on my day of cruisin around the boards)
My kinda help is usually: Q: "Where is the Bathroom?"
A: "Around the corner on the right"
answering those questions gets boring for me and my knowledge of "Pro Graphic Apps" is nadda and not my forte...
another words only ask me how can I install this icq plus skin? and I might help you... hehe
(If it's not the 100th time I ran across it on my day of cruisin around the boards)
paxx
Reply #26 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:24 PM
Reply #26 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:24 PM
I don't mind that there are more skinners. That's fine with me.
But what I mind is the number of users. The more it goes, the less technically able the casual downloader is.
I don't mind helping anybody. But I don't like lazy people. More people now seem to not even try to look for the information, they want us to write them a 30 pages step by step tutorial, for crying out loud...
But what I mind is the number of users. The more it goes, the less technically able the casual downloader is.
I don't mind helping anybody. But I don't like lazy people. More people now seem to not even try to look for the information, they want us to write them a 30 pages step by step tutorial, for crying out loud...
Third Eye
Reply #27 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:41 PM
Reply #27 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 12:41 PM
In a perfect world what would be great would be a knowledge base where answers to skinning questions can be placed... kind of like an all around skinning FAQ site but more detailed. Maybe instead of asking for help on the message boards people could be kindly directed to the Knowledge base were they could search for their question as well as a message board for the questions that aren’t in the knowledge base?
It could be a central repository for every question “skinning” related. It could give the pros and cons of the graphic apps that people use (that seems to be almost a weekly question) a description of the different applications that can be skinned or used to skin... Like MSDN but for the Skinning community. SDN : The Skinners Developer Network
How would this be originally populated? Maybe by searching the other message boards for key topics or words like "Litestep help" or "how do I". Those answers could then be placed within the knowledge base. It would be a true community effort. It would not host any skins or skinning apps just answers and questions.
I know that software developers currently have their own way of answering these types of questions such as newsgroups but maybe this could be a starting point for those that are new and for those that are trying to push the envelope of what they can already do skinning wise?
This model was somewhat proven with the GUI Olympics. It had nothing to do with anything but a contest… all sites were welcome and all sites benefited.
Oh well just a thought… what does everyone else think? Any other possibilities to add?
It could be a central repository for every question “skinning” related. It could give the pros and cons of the graphic apps that people use (that seems to be almost a weekly question) a description of the different applications that can be skinned or used to skin... Like MSDN but for the Skinning community. SDN : The Skinners Developer Network
How would this be originally populated? Maybe by searching the other message boards for key topics or words like "Litestep help" or "how do I". Those answers could then be placed within the knowledge base. It would be a true community effort. It would not host any skins or skinning apps just answers and questions.
I know that software developers currently have their own way of answering these types of questions such as newsgroups but maybe this could be a starting point for those that are new and for those that are trying to push the envelope of what they can already do skinning wise?
This model was somewhat proven with the GUI Olympics. It had nothing to do with anything but a contest… all sites were welcome and all sites benefited.
Oh well just a thought… what does everyone else think? Any other possibilities to add?
craeonics
Reply #28 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:02 PM
Reply #28 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:02 PM
Déjà vu. Perhaps we can stick that up at skinnables or so. Would be nice.
Peff
Reply #29 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:30 PM
Reply #29 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:30 PM
Hey paxx,
Did you ever write that 30 page tutorial....I could sure use it
I have to admit that as a newbie to skinning I find it complicated..even with the 'tools' you mention....I'm a technical person (22 years programming everything from device drivers for windows to word processors in FORTRAN), but without some guide as to where to start (without ripping someone else's work) it becomes a matter of trial and error to get things looking right...and even then I don't dare release my skin(s) for fear that I'm going to piss everybody off when I neglect to get permission from the originators.
On a side note...can anyone answer this in 20 words or less...when I do rip (apart, not steal) an existing skin and replace the bitmaps, my 'magic' transparent color gets ignored and shows through in all it's ugly glory (255,0,255)...Thanks is advance
BTW, I want to personally thank all the skinners who contribute to this and other skinning sites (especially, but by no means only, treetog and alexandrie). You all do wonderful work and it is greatly appreciated (I am one who buys skin suites when I encounter them). Please keep them comming, and if I forget to comment on them...forgive me... I'm probably either too busy installing/tearing them apart (for information purposes only) or defragging my hard drive...
Thanks again (I'll make it a point to thank each and everyone of you in a 5 page e-mail soon)
Stefan
Did you ever write that 30 page tutorial....I could sure use it
I have to admit that as a newbie to skinning I find it complicated..even with the 'tools' you mention....I'm a technical person (22 years programming everything from device drivers for windows to word processors in FORTRAN), but without some guide as to where to start (without ripping someone else's work) it becomes a matter of trial and error to get things looking right...and even then I don't dare release my skin(s) for fear that I'm going to piss everybody off when I neglect to get permission from the originators.On a side note...can anyone answer this in 20 words or less...when I do rip (apart, not steal) an existing skin and replace the bitmaps, my 'magic' transparent color gets ignored and shows through in all it's ugly glory (255,0,255)...Thanks is advance
BTW, I want to personally thank all the skinners who contribute to this and other skinning sites (especially, but by no means only, treetog and alexandrie). You all do wonderful work and it is greatly appreciated (I am one who buys skin suites when I encounter them). Please keep them comming, and if I forget to comment on them...forgive me... I'm probably either too busy installing/tearing them apart (for information purposes only) or defragging my hard drive...
Thanks again (I'll make it a point to thank each and everyone of you in a 5 page e-mail soon)
Stefan
Peff
Reply #30 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:31 PM
Reply #30 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:31 PM
Oh, BTW...I think the knowledge base idea is great... SDN....microsoft will probably sue..
p e d
Reply #31 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:52 PM
Reply #31 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:52 PM
Hey Peff.
Assuming it's a Windowblinds skin and you are using Skinstudio, click on the bitmap and then at the bottom of the screen set the transparency checkbox to on. If its not there then that part of the skin does not support transparency.
P.s. I find transparency in XP often gets replaced with black especially in scroll bars.
Assuming it's a Windowblinds skin and you are using Skinstudio, click on the bitmap and then at the bottom of the screen set the transparency checkbox to on. If its not there then that part of the skin does not support transparency.
P.s. I find transparency in XP often gets replaced with black especially in scroll bars.
p e d
Reply #32 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:55 PM
Reply #32 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 2:55 PM
Oh and I totally agree with what Peff said about the skinners on this site. You can learn almost as much from thier skins as you can from asking them questions. It just takes a little longer.
Thanks to all of you.
Thanks to all of you.
Peff
Reply #33 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 3:32 PM
Reply #33 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 3:32 PM
Hyphen,
I've got every transparent checking I can find set to on...no luck...I'll keep trying, though...Thanks
I've got every transparent checking I can find set to on...no luck...I'll keep trying, though...Thanks
craeonics
Reply #34 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 3:52 PM
Reply #34 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 3:52 PM
Hmm, you sure it's 255,0,255 and not 255,0,254 or so? Last time I checked out Windowblinds was three years ago.
You know, best way to learn how to skin, is to take an existing skin apart. Look at the bitmaps and how they piece together and how the textfiles bind them. ALter one thing, test, alter another thing, test again. It's a slow proces.
Awmygawd, I'm being helpfull!
You know, best way to learn how to skin, is to take an existing skin apart. Look at the bitmaps and how they piece together and how the textfiles bind them. ALter one thing, test, alter another thing, test again. It's a slow proces.
Awmygawd, I'm being helpfull!
JavaBrain
Reply #35 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:08 PM
Reply #35 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:08 PM
Crae, on Deskmod you asked if anyone ever heard of somebody doing a mod on their TV. My 3 year old *tried* to do that. I think she has a bright future in customization.....
grayhaze
Reply #36 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:56 PM
Reply #36 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 4:56 PM
I started out skinning on my Amiga with a thing called UrouHack. It was basically a very very primitive ancestor of WindowBlinds. You could change the three titlebar buttons... and that was it!
You can probably still find my UrouHack 'themes' somewhere out there in Amiga land...
You can probably still find my UrouHack 'themes' somewhere out there in Amiga land...
Jafo
Reply #37 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:45 PM
Reply #37 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:45 PM
It's Magic Pink...255,000,255...
darwn23...
The problem that the older [more experienced] skinner runs into often is his 'advice' or 'comments' are construed as 'criticism' by some who perceive they know more than they think.
Here at Wincusto, you'll find quite a bit of skinning experience....people who have been actively involved in the 'game/industry/community' for a very long time, however their opinions and expressions based on experience are dismissed as [usually] 'Stardock's yes-men' when the atated opinion doesn't concur with its audience's.
Either people 'new' to the whole skinning/graphics scene acknowledge the experience of others, or they don't.
That 'should' go for more than just 'what colour is Magic Pink' questions....but perhaps also 'what is good for the community...how do we fix things' questions too.
Skinners are not brainless automatons that just 'happen' to know how to cut up a bitmap. Their 'history' of interaction and involvement in their community is equally of valid importance/relevance.
Those who ignore the mistakes of history are destined to repeat them...
darwn23...
The problem that the older [more experienced] skinner runs into often is his 'advice' or 'comments' are construed as 'criticism' by some who perceive they know more than they think.
Here at Wincusto, you'll find quite a bit of skinning experience....people who have been actively involved in the 'game/industry/community' for a very long time, however their opinions and expressions based on experience are dismissed as [usually] 'Stardock's yes-men' when the atated opinion doesn't concur with its audience's.
Either people 'new' to the whole skinning/graphics scene acknowledge the experience of others, or they don't.
That 'should' go for more than just 'what colour is Magic Pink' questions....but perhaps also 'what is good for the community...how do we fix things' questions too.
Skinners are not brainless automatons that just 'happen' to know how to cut up a bitmap. Their 'history' of interaction and involvement in their community is equally of valid importance/relevance.
Those who ignore the mistakes of history are destined to repeat them...
Jafo
Reply #38 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:52 PM
Reply #38 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:52 PM
I've lost count of the number of lost souls I've rescued from the 'Land of the Lost Shell' with LiteSTEP.....but it always made me wonder....how were they on the net asking questions if they'd mangled the OS...when LS used to frag my system, or rather I'd mangle LS and it would frag my OS in spite...I wouldn't be able to Logon...I usually couldn't even boot...
DavidK
Reply #39 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:55 PM
Reply #39 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 7:55 PM
"Skinners are not brainless automatons that just 'happen' to know how to cut up a bitmap. " ...that's true, I had to learn how to cut up a bitmap. Being a brainless automaton it wasn't easy...
DavidK
Reply #40 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:00 PM
Reply #40 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 8:00 PM
This same topic is a thread at deskmod. Here's what I posted there (too lazy to come up with something original for here):
When Bob Dylan brought out an electric guitar the first time he was booed off the stage. In the Villiage no less...
We all now know that Dylan's contribution was epic in it's importance and broke down musical barriers. He was a genius who had great respect for those that came before him.
At that time there was a lot of genius around in music and art, but there were also plenty of other 'new' 'young' stars around then that were completely insipid.
You hang in a scene you can relate to, same as you buy music that means something to you. Trying to maintain a status quo and resist change will usually get you left behind by the forward momentum of creativity. Just as trying to reinvent a scene will get you lynched as a troublemaker unless you do it with genius and a respect for its origins.
When Bob Dylan brought out an electric guitar the first time he was booed off the stage. In the Villiage no less...
We all now know that Dylan's contribution was epic in it's importance and broke down musical barriers. He was a genius who had great respect for those that came before him.
At that time there was a lot of genius around in music and art, but there were also plenty of other 'new' 'young' stars around then that were completely insipid.
You hang in a scene you can relate to, same as you buy music that means something to you. Trying to maintain a status quo and resist change will usually get you left behind by the forward momentum of creativity. Just as trying to reinvent a scene will get you lynched as a troublemaker unless you do it with genius and a respect for its origins.
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Reply #21 Wednesday, May 1, 2002 10:54 AM