Mercury skin?
Thursday, April 4, 2002 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I just thought I'd open this up for discussion as I'm still being poked at for protecting the copyright of my skins over at 'the other place'.
I've seen a lot of people talking about William Bart's Mercury skins for Kaleidoscope on the Mac, and his refusal to give anyone permission to port them to the PC. Now, I've long been a fan of his work, at least from seeing screenshots of the skins in use, and I'd like to try and bring the look of those skins over to the PC in some way. However, as it's unlikely that I'd get permission to port the actual skins, and the fact that I prefer to make everything from scratch myself anyway, where would I stand if I simply create a similar looking skin for WindowBlinds, but creating the graphics myself?
I've already done a little work on this, and I'm very pleased with the results. However, I'd prefer not to step on anyone's toes or get mixed up in copyright issues if I can avoid it. From what I've done so far, you could put the skins side by side and they would look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. However, on close inspection at a pixel level there are obvious differences.
I'd also be interested in how many people would like to see this skin completed and released.
For those who don't have a clue what I'm talking about, take a look at this screenshot of William Bart's original work: http://homepage.mac.com/pixelwiz/.Pictures/BBX%3AA5MERCURY%3AAA%20web%20preview.jpg
I've seen a lot of people talking about William Bart's Mercury skins for Kaleidoscope on the Mac, and his refusal to give anyone permission to port them to the PC. Now, I've long been a fan of his work, at least from seeing screenshots of the skins in use, and I'd like to try and bring the look of those skins over to the PC in some way. However, as it's unlikely that I'd get permission to port the actual skins, and the fact that I prefer to make everything from scratch myself anyway, where would I stand if I simply create a similar looking skin for WindowBlinds, but creating the graphics myself?
I've already done a little work on this, and I'm very pleased with the results. However, I'd prefer not to step on anyone's toes or get mixed up in copyright issues if I can avoid it. From what I've done so far, you could put the skins side by side and they would look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. However, on close inspection at a pixel level there are obvious differences.
I'd also be interested in how many people would like to see this skin completed and released.
For those who don't have a clue what I'm talking about, take a look at this screenshot of William Bart's original work: http://homepage.mac.com/pixelwiz/.Pictures/BBX%3AA5MERCURY%3AAA%20web%20preview.jpg
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WOM
Reply #22 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:04 PM
Reply #22 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:04 PM
When I went looking for a skin site the first thing I looked at was the message board. You can get the feel of the site(people) by reading the messages. The language and the content. Then the ease of navigating the site. Thats why I chose WC. This is a mature group of people(for the most part). Friendly and helpful. They don't put up with a lot of trash.
Jafo
Reply #23 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:00 PM
Reply #23 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:00 PM
grayhaze...in Copyright there is essentially a time-line of 'cause and effect', with regards to 'inspiration' that makes 'resemblance only' works violate the original copyright holder.
If it can be shown that the 'second' artist had seen the first's work prior to the creation of the second, then 'similarities' could be seen to be 'derived'.
If, however, it could be proven that your living in a Convent and having no contact with the outside world had resulted in any 'similarities' being a definite case of 'coincidence' then the copyright issue is 'less clear'...but perhaps the courts would look at creation dates for guidance.
It doesn't matter whether you have altered every pixel....if the resulting work is of recognizable 'style' or 'feel', then 'something' has been 'copied' in essence.
Jafo must stop putting words in 'quotations'....
If it can be shown that the 'second' artist had seen the first's work prior to the creation of the second, then 'similarities' could be seen to be 'derived'.
If, however, it could be proven that your living in a Convent and having no contact with the outside world had resulted in any 'similarities' being a definite case of 'coincidence' then the copyright issue is 'less clear'...but perhaps the courts would look at creation dates for guidance.
It doesn't matter whether you have altered every pixel....if the resulting work is of recognizable 'style' or 'feel', then 'something' has been 'copied' in essence.
Jafo must stop putting words in 'quotations'....
DavidK
Reply #24 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:17 PM
Reply #24 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:17 PM
grayhaze lives in a convent?? he's a nun???
hmmmm DavidK wonders about Jafo's credibility and wonders why crae hasn't popped in to say "ports are evil"
hmmmm DavidK wonders about Jafo's credibility and wonders why crae hasn't popped in to say "ports are evil"
cuevillas
Reply #25 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:26 PM
Reply #25 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:26 PM
hi guys!
can please some one tell me how do I open the archives when I download them?? cos they have strange extensions like ".ip"
...(I`m new)
can please some one tell me how do I open the archives when I download them?? cos they have strange extensions like ".ip"
...(I`m new)
cuevillas
Reply #26 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:28 PM
Reply #26 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:28 PM
pleeeeeeeeeeeeease answer or i`ll become crazy!!!!!!!!
I know I don`t know a shit, but i`m new!!
I know I don`t know a shit, but i`m new!!
cuevillas
Reply #27 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:32 PM
Reply #27 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:32 PM
hey DavidK I know you can help me, so don`t ignore me please!!!!!!!
grayhaze
Reply #28 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:34 PM
Reply #28 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:34 PM
Erm... You do realise that this is a message board and not a chat room, don't you cuevillas? Therefore, when you post a comment, don't expect a reply for a while. You will very rarely get a reply within a couple of minutes! 
Also, try to stay on the topic of the thread. If you have a question, it's best to start a new thread.
The answer to your question, by the way, is that to use a file you've downloaded you must have the associated application. Therefore, if you download a file from the IconPackager section (the files with an '.ip' extension) you need to have IconPackager to use them.
Also, try to stay on the topic of the thread. If you have a question, it's best to start a new thread.
The answer to your question, by the way, is that to use a file you've downloaded you must have the associated application. Therefore, if you download a file from the IconPackager section (the files with an '.ip' extension) you need to have IconPackager to use them.
grayhaze
Reply #29 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:41 PM
Reply #29 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:41 PM
If what you're saying is true Jafo, then there's no hope for the skinning community. If only one person is allowed to make chrome skins, glass skins, plastic skins, etc. then things are very difficult. In my past experience with Copyright law, you're only infringing those laws if you directly copy or alter another person's work and then pass it off as your own. Saying that you're violating Copyright law by taking inspiration from other people's work basically means that every artist, musician and writer on the face of the planet is currently engaged in criminal activity. Your idea of the law is restrictive to the point of absurdity.
If what you say is true, then every single skin on this site violates Copyright law to some extent.
If what you say is true, then every single skin on this site violates Copyright law to some extent.
grayhaze
Reply #30 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:43 PM
Reply #30 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:43 PM
DavidK>> Yes, it's true. I'm a nun, but I'm trying to break the habit.
Sorry. The Comedy Police are beating down my door as I type...
Sorry. The Comedy Police are beating down my door as I type...
DavidK
Reply #31 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:56 PM
Reply #31 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:56 PM
cluelessvillas - I already had answered your question in the other thread you posted it in... 
paxx
Reply #32 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
Reply #32 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:58 PM
grayhaze, it's all very relative. But in short, if a skin reminds you of another, then the "inspiration" was too close to the original.
I can be inspired by the sun and draw light effects on a wallpaper, with tones of red and yellow. But if I actually draw a sun in the skin, then I'm not inspired by the sun anymore, I'm actually drawing the sun.
I can be inspired by the sun and draw light effects on a wallpaper, with tones of red and yellow. But if I actually draw a sun in the skin, then I'm not inspired by the sun anymore, I'm actually drawing the sun.
grayhaze
Reply #33 Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:24 PM
Reply #33 Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:24 PM
Just a quick update on the Mercury situation, care of digitaljames. William Bart has now (somewhat regretfully) given in and given his permission for ports of his Mercury skins to other platforms. For more info, check out this thread on NeoWin: http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&postid=194507#post194507
Forced2Register
Reply #35 Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:39 PM
Reply #35 Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:39 PM
Yes, he finally gave in 
So I guess the ask authors permission and if he says yes he is a cool guy. If he says no, we'll say he is an ass and rip him anyway, because he has no choice and will eventually give in. This is outragous. Your given the option of saying no but when you do you get screwed. Does anyone else see a problem with this? I know it doesn't happen here or at devart but NeoWin is now saying the do not allow ripping in a post at DevArt http://forum.deviantart.com/270621
With people there making statements such as
"As for not doing a theme...what's wrong with you people? Finish it and release it. This is for non-commercial use and is not covered by copyright. Give the original artist credit and get on with it. If he doesn't like it, too bad. Let him try to sue in any court over a stupid theme"
The post is 33 pages long but no mods at NeoWin have read the first couple of pages??? That statement appears on the second page. This is beyond ludicrous.
So I guess the ask authors permission and if he says yes he is a cool guy. If he says no, we'll say he is an ass and rip him anyway, because he has no choice and will eventually give in. This is outragous. Your given the option of saying no but when you do you get screwed. Does anyone else see a problem with this? I know it doesn't happen here or at devart but NeoWin is now saying the do not allow ripping in a post at DevArt http://forum.deviantart.com/270621With people there making statements such as
"As for not doing a theme...what's wrong with you people? Finish it and release it. This is for non-commercial use and is not covered by copyright. Give the original artist credit and get on with it. If he doesn't like it, too bad. Let him try to sue in any court over a stupid theme"
The post is 33 pages long but no mods at NeoWin have read the first couple of pages??? That statement appears on the second page. This is beyond ludicrous.
WOM
Reply #36 Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:52 PM
Reply #36 Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:52 PM
An open thought: If NeoWin is a skin site, why doesn't the legitimate skinners boycott all those site that approve of ripping(stealing). I would think that if they were left with a den of thieves that they might wise up and change(I hope).
grayhaze
Reply #37 Sunday, April 14, 2002 7:14 AM
Reply #37 Sunday, April 14, 2002 7:14 AM
I don't agree with the way things turned out, but I can certainly see why Mr Bart had to give in. It was a case of either giving in and ensuring that he gets credit for all the rips/ports, or do pretty much what I did when my metalX skin was being ripped and just end up with a bad reputation and a lot of uncredited rips. I'm really not happy with the disregard a large majority of NeoWin memebers seem to show for this community, and the only way I can see for this to be resolved neatly is for someone who knows what they're doing to make a really good port. That way, all the NeoWin kids won't have to continue ripping the skins.
As for 8-ball, I may now release it, but I'm still not overly comfortable with the situation. I'm also likely to get a somewhat frosty reception from Mr Bart when I speak to him.
As for 8-ball, I may now release it, but I'm still not overly comfortable with the situation. I'm also likely to get a somewhat frosty reception from Mr Bart when I speak to him.
Rob S
Reply #38 Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:08 AM
Reply #38 Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:08 AM
Maybe someone *cough*greyhaze*cough* should get together with Mr Bart to make a port.
dainbramage
Reply #39 Sunday, April 14, 2002 5:21 PM
Reply #39 Sunday, April 14, 2002 5:21 PM
I certainly hope you release it. I don't agree with the way things were handled over there either, but now that he's given permission he might be happy to see a high quality port released.
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Reply #21 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:23 PM
It's people like those guys who really take away the fun of skinning.
I'm probably not even going to release 8ball to the public now. Although it's pretty much completed, to the untrained eye the similarities with MMX Mercury are too much of a problem. So I think I'll at least postpone the release until the whole mess surrounding the .msstyle rip of the skin passes by.