Mercury skin?
Thursday, April 4, 2002 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I just thought I'd open this up for discussion as I'm still being poked at for protecting the copyright of my skins over at 'the other place'.
I've seen a lot of people talking about William Bart's Mercury skins for Kaleidoscope on the Mac, and his refusal to give anyone permission to port them to the PC. Now, I've long been a fan of his work, at least from seeing screenshots of the skins in use, and I'd like to try and bring the look of those skins over to the PC in some way. However, as it's unlikely that I'd get permission to port the actual skins, and the fact that I prefer to make everything from scratch myself anyway, where would I stand if I simply create a similar looking skin for WindowBlinds, but creating the graphics myself?
I've already done a little work on this, and I'm very pleased with the results. However, I'd prefer not to step on anyone's toes or get mixed up in copyright issues if I can avoid it. From what I've done so far, you could put the skins side by side and they would look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. However, on close inspection at a pixel level there are obvious differences.
I'd also be interested in how many people would like to see this skin completed and released.
For those who don't have a clue what I'm talking about, take a look at this screenshot of William Bart's original work: http://homepage.mac.com/pixelwiz/.Pictures/BBX%3AA5MERCURY%3AAA%20web%20preview.jpg
I've seen a lot of people talking about William Bart's Mercury skins for Kaleidoscope on the Mac, and his refusal to give anyone permission to port them to the PC. Now, I've long been a fan of his work, at least from seeing screenshots of the skins in use, and I'd like to try and bring the look of those skins over to the PC in some way. However, as it's unlikely that I'd get permission to port the actual skins, and the fact that I prefer to make everything from scratch myself anyway, where would I stand if I simply create a similar looking skin for WindowBlinds, but creating the graphics myself?
I've already done a little work on this, and I'm very pleased with the results. However, I'd prefer not to step on anyone's toes or get mixed up in copyright issues if I can avoid it. From what I've done so far, you could put the skins side by side and they would look pretty much the same to the untrained eye. However, on close inspection at a pixel level there are obvious differences.
I'd also be interested in how many people would like to see this skin completed and released.
For those who don't have a clue what I'm talking about, take a look at this screenshot of William Bart's original work: http://homepage.mac.com/pixelwiz/.Pictures/BBX%3AA5MERCURY%3AAA%20web%20preview.jpg
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davad70
Reply #2 Thursday, April 4, 2002 8:33 PM
Reply #2 Thursday, April 4, 2002 8:33 PM
I would imagine a lot of skinners themselves have already done this. As soon as I saw dangeruss'screenie of his version I made one a skin for my own use. I can't really see that it would be looked upon favorably by the community if you released it. Granted...people would be crazy over it and download it, but I'm sure bart would have a fit and demand it be removed. However....has anyone else noticed the similarity between the base image in Mercury and Alexandrie's titlebar in her Corvette skin? Maybe you could get her permission to use her titlebar and recolor it. 
paxx
Reply #3 Thursday, April 4, 2002 10:13 PM
Reply #3 Thursday, April 4, 2002 10:13 PM
grayhaze, why oh why would a talented artist such as yourself want to do any kind of port of somebody else's work?
I looked at the screenshot and any of your skins look 10 times better than that Mercurt skin.
So, my opinion: don't do it. But if you really want to have your computer look like Bill Bart's, then keep it for yourself.
I looked at the screenshot and any of your skins look 10 times better than that Mercurt skin.
So, my opinion: don't do it. But if you really want to have your computer look like Bill Bart's, then keep it for yourself.
dendillon
Reply #4 Thursday, April 4, 2002 11:49 PM
Reply #4 Thursday, April 4, 2002 11:49 PM
Grayhaze,
A couple of years back, another popular WB artist, coincidentally by the name of Mercury, ported a Kaleidoscope skin. This was not received to well by the Kaleidoscope community. IIRC, he did not receive permission, but did credit the author. I still have the original, before it was pulled, and also the reworked one. The new version was a much better skin. Basically what I am telling you is - don't do it, but as Paxx said, "if you really want to have your computer look like Bill Bart's, then keep it for yourself." You are a much better artist.
A couple of years back, another popular WB artist, coincidentally by the name of Mercury, ported a Kaleidoscope skin. This was not received to well by the Kaleidoscope community. IIRC, he did not receive permission, but did credit the author. I still have the original, before it was pulled, and also the reworked one. The new version was a much better skin. Basically what I am telling you is - don't do it, but as Paxx said, "if you really want to have your computer look like Bill Bart's, then keep it for yourself." You are a much better artist.
dendillon
Reply #5 Thursday, April 4, 2002 11:59 PM
Reply #5 Thursday, April 4, 2002 11:59 PM
The skin, I couldn't remember, was "Green Machine" by Mercury.
grayhaze
Reply #6 Friday, April 5, 2002 5:46 AM
Reply #6 Friday, April 5, 2002 5:46 AM
Well it doesn't sound like anyone really thinks it's a good idea. I think what I might do is finish the skin and post it on my site, rather than spreading it through all the skinning sites. At that time I'll ask around and see what people think of it, before maybe posting it on WC at a later date.
Bear in mind that my skin is quite a different beast, including all my usual stuff such as color customization and plugins, and it's only really a square black & white chrome skin in a similar style. Every element of the skin has been created by myself, so there are a lot of changes in the way I've done certain things which I feel make the skin look a little better than the original inspiration.
Bear in mind that my skin is quite a different beast, including all my usual stuff such as color customization and plugins, and it's only really a square black & white chrome skin in a similar style. Every element of the skin has been created by myself, so there are a lot of changes in the way I've done certain things which I feel make the skin look a little better than the original inspiration.
Jafo
Reply #7 Friday, April 5, 2002 6:40 AM
Reply #7 Friday, April 5, 2002 6:40 AM
Just the simple acknowledgement that your work was 'derived' from another's precludes its public distribution without permission.
Emulating, or copying another's work, or style of work is OK in your own bedroom....but not for public consumption.
If you put an 'inspired' work on your site it'll still need consent...
Emulating, or copying another's work, or style of work is OK in your own bedroom....but not for public consumption.
If you put an 'inspired' work on your site it'll still need consent...
migellito
Reply #8 Friday, April 5, 2002 10:47 AM
Reply #8 Friday, April 5, 2002 10:47 AM
yep, listen to jafo even though it's only on your own site, it's still a public forum.
there are numerous cases where this happened in a wide variety of fields. for example, years ago a furniture store owner in denver [jake jabs] mocked up a little E.T. look-alike and had it sitting on a bed during a tv commercial. he usually used various exotic animals, but not this time. well.. stephen spielberg happened to be in aspen watching tv after a bit of skiing. you can see where this is going.
basically, copyrights and their cousins were around long before it was possible to so easily make a true digital -copy- of something. they were designed to be effective when the means of copying involved reproducing something by hand.
just an fyi.. bill is a -very- nice guy to talk to. he's a professional graphic designer with major ad credits, but doesn't care much for pc's. he also works down the hall from some very expensive lawyers who don't mind doing favors for him feel free to use the skins for yourself though!
even though it's only on your own site, it's still a public forum.there are numerous cases where this happened in a wide variety of fields. for example, years ago a furniture store owner in denver [jake jabs] mocked up a little E.T. look-alike and had it sitting on a bed during a tv commercial. he usually used various exotic animals, but not this time. well.. stephen spielberg happened to be in aspen watching tv after a bit of skiing. you can see where this is going.
basically, copyrights and their cousins were around long before it was possible to so easily make a true digital -copy- of something. they were designed to be effective when the means of copying involved reproducing something by hand.
just an fyi.. bill is a -very- nice guy to talk to. he's a professional graphic designer with major ad credits, but doesn't care much for pc's. he also works down the hall from some very expensive lawyers who don't mind doing favors for him
feel free to use the skins for yourself though!
pjpowell
Reply #9 Saturday, April 6, 2002 2:22 PM
Reply #9 Saturday, April 6, 2002 2:22 PM
You could always explain what you are doing and send him a screeny of the redone images and see what he says. It's always best to go to the source when dealing in these matters.
pjpowell
Reply #10 Saturday, April 6, 2002 2:24 PM
Reply #10 Saturday, April 6, 2002 2:24 PM
Alos think about how you felt when someone copied your skin to an msstyle without asking you.
grayhaze
Reply #11 Sunday, April 7, 2002 7:53 AM
Reply #11 Sunday, April 7, 2002 7:53 AM
The difference here though is that I haven't used any of his graphics in my skin. I've drawn everything from scratch, and just used a similar chrome effect for everything. It's also pure shades of grey rather than the off-blue colour of the originals. It's really just a matter of being inspired by his work to create a similar feel for a WB skin - it's by no means a port of his skin.
I would post a screenshot of my skin so you guys can see exactly what I mean, but I'd be concerned about someone just ripping from that shot.
Does anyone have an address for William Bart here? I've searched high and low and can't seem to find one anywhere. All I'd really be doing is sending him a screenshot and thanking him for the inspiration anyway, as the skin has really got to the point where it's so different that I don't feel permission is really required anyway. I'd still like to acknowledge my respect for his work though.
I think I'll still be following my original plan of posting the skin on my site first and seeing what kind of response I get to it. Although I originally started off trying to make a port of Mercury, in my usual overly-picky way I've changed the look of just about everything to the way I would prefer it to look.
The skin is called '8ball', due to the fact that it really does look like a polished 8 ball. Expect to see it soon.
I would post a screenshot of my skin so you guys can see exactly what I mean, but I'd be concerned about someone just ripping from that shot.
Does anyone have an address for William Bart here? I've searched high and low and can't seem to find one anywhere. All I'd really be doing is sending him a screenshot and thanking him for the inspiration anyway, as the skin has really got to the point where it's so different that I don't feel permission is really required anyway. I'd still like to acknowledge my respect for his work though.
I think I'll still be following my original plan of posting the skin on my site first and seeing what kind of response I get to it. Although I originally started off trying to make a port of Mercury, in my usual overly-picky way I've changed the look of just about everything to the way I would prefer it to look.
The skin is called '8ball', due to the fact that it really does look like a polished 8 ball.
Expect to see it soon.
digitaljames
Reply #12 Sunday, April 7, 2002 9:15 AM
Reply #12 Sunday, April 7, 2002 9:15 AM
©2002 William Bart Digital Illustration & Design
For commisions or inquiries, please contact Sharpshooter Inc. at (416) 205-9995 or [email protected]
For commisions or inquiries, please contact Sharpshooter Inc. at (416) 205-9995 or [email protected]
grayhaze
Reply #13 Sunday, April 7, 2002 9:31 AM
Reply #13 Sunday, April 7, 2002 9:31 AM
I saw that address, but I wasn't sure if it was actually his. It seems to be for a different company, perhaps the one that maintains the site? I'll give it a try anyway.
Xymantix
Reply #14 Sunday, April 7, 2002 8:16 PM
Reply #14 Sunday, April 7, 2002 8:16 PM
I curious to see how this all turns out. Personally, I'd really like to see your take on the theme since it sounds like it isn't a direct copy.
I'm still not convinced that just because something was 'inspired' and not derived or copied means that it violates the copyrights. If you take that to the strictest sense and apply it to Apple's Aqua theme, that means you can no longer do a theme with reflections. Or with the color blue. That's obviously such an extreme that it's ridiculous, but where is the point in the middle between the two where it's ok to be truly inspired?
I'm still not convinced that just because something was 'inspired' and not derived or copied means that it violates the copyrights. If you take that to the strictest sense and apply it to Apple's Aqua theme, that means you can no longer do a theme with reflections. Or with the color blue. That's obviously such an extreme that it's ridiculous, but where is the point in the middle between the two where it's ok to be truly inspired?
grayhaze
Reply #15 Monday, April 8, 2002 7:06 AM
Reply #15 Monday, April 8, 2002 7:06 AM
That was exactly my point. Surely you're only violating copyright if you're using the original work and including it in your own. If you're simply mimicking the look of the original, but in your own way, then surely it's just an homage to the original.
Mercury
Reply #16 Monday, April 8, 2002 9:14 AM
Reply #16 Monday, April 8, 2002 9:14 AM
dendillon, just to set the record straight, Green Machine is not a port of a k-scheme but was inspired by one. And it was never pulled and reworked. When the controversy started I pulled it just to get the maccies off my back but after discussing it with some people at SD I reposted it. Also, the k-scheme was by William Martin not William Bart.
Mr. Bart and I have also had an encounter over skinning. The original version of my Das Boot skin used a title bar shape that was similar to one of his k-schemes and he went ballistic. I got nasty emails from all sorts of maccies, they ripped me apart on their mailing list and my web site. Although the skin was not a rip of his work, I changed the title bar just so I wouldn't have to waste so much time dealing with their sh*t.
grayhaze, my personal take on doing "inspired by" skins these days is not to do any. Even though all the work is original, it's just not worth the time it takes defending it IMO. If you want, drop me an email and I'll send you Mr. Bart's email address. I don't expect you'll get very far but you never know.
Mr. Bart and I have also had an encounter over skinning. The original version of my Das Boot skin used a title bar shape that was similar to one of his k-schemes and he went ballistic. I got nasty emails from all sorts of maccies, they ripped me apart on their mailing list and my web site. Although the skin was not a rip of his work, I changed the title bar just so I wouldn't have to waste so much time dealing with their sh*t.
grayhaze, my personal take on doing "inspired by" skins these days is not to do any. Even though all the work is original, it's just not worth the time it takes defending it IMO. If you want, drop me an email and I'll send you Mr. Bart's email address. I don't expect you'll get very far but you never know.
paxx
Reply #17 Monday, April 8, 2002 9:38 AM
Reply #17 Monday, April 8, 2002 9:38 AM
"get inspired" is too close to copying sometimes.
Whether the pixels are original or not makes no difference in a rip. If yo redraw Mickey Mouse yourself just as much a rip as scanning a Mickey Mouse image from the book. No difference.
Now if you take your Mickey Mouse drawing, replace the black for brown and shrink the ears a little, is it still a rip, or is it just a drwaing "inspired" by Mickey Mouse. How much different does an artwork have to be in order to be considered "inspired by" and not a rip?
How many rips have we witnessed in the last few years where rippers claim that they didn't rip but merely were "inspired". Ask Alexandrie and Treetog, they've seen dozens of those "inspired" skins (which really were rips).
The line is very thin, and it's always best to stay away from it, unless you can get the original author's permission. Besides, a reputation is extremely important. Why risk a controversy and risk to get your name involved in a rip accusation. Whether it's legitimate or not, a lot of people will always remember your name associated with that.
Best example can be read above: Mercory got involved in a controversy in the past, and although it may have been unjustified his name still brings up some rips controvercy to certain people.
My advice: drop it.
Whether the pixels are original or not makes no difference in a rip. If yo redraw Mickey Mouse yourself just as much a rip as scanning a Mickey Mouse image from the book. No difference.
Now if you take your Mickey Mouse drawing, replace the black for brown and shrink the ears a little, is it still a rip, or is it just a drwaing "inspired" by Mickey Mouse. How much different does an artwork have to be in order to be considered "inspired by" and not a rip?
How many rips have we witnessed in the last few years where rippers claim that they didn't rip but merely were "inspired". Ask Alexandrie and Treetog, they've seen dozens of those "inspired" skins (which really were rips).
The line is very thin, and it's always best to stay away from it, unless you can get the original author's permission. Besides, a reputation is extremely important. Why risk a controversy and risk to get your name involved in a rip accusation. Whether it's legitimate or not, a lot of people will always remember your name associated with that.
Best example can be read above: Mercory got involved in a controversy in the past, and although it may have been unjustified his name still brings up some rips controvercy to certain people.
My advice: drop it.
c242
Reply #18 Monday, April 8, 2002 10:50 AM
Reply #18 Monday, April 8, 2002 10:50 AM
IMHO the "Bleu" WB-Skin by Alexandrie goes perfectly with the BBX-Mercury stuff. So no use for all the hassle. As a side-info, there will be loads of Icons for Mac and XP in this style. http://www.mmicons.com.
As a side-info, there will be loads of Icons for Mac and XP in this style. http://www.mmicons.com.
Forced2Register
Reply #20 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:15 PM
Reply #20 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:15 PM
My first post on the WC BBS 
I am glad to see you guys carry the type of respect that is deserving to artists of any medium. There is a very sad and ignorant thread at http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20884 where, as far as I can see they have flat out stolen the MMX Mercury look and have said screw off to the original author. Seems a guy named Superbeast thinks it is the authors though luck for releasing it to Mac users and now it's fair game. The whole thread there is very sad indeed, the whole board there has taken a downward spiral with attitude and arrogance towards others. Thanks for the refreshing insight here, thank god not every place is going down hill. I sure hope someone can can stop what's happening over there, I guess the kid stealing it has to learn the hard way.
I am glad to see you guys carry the type of respect that is deserving to artists of any medium. There is a very sad and ignorant thread at http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20884 where, as far as I can see they have flat out stolen the MMX Mercury look and have said screw off to the original author. Seems a guy named Superbeast thinks it is the authors though luck for releasing it to Mac users and now it's fair game. The whole thread there is very sad indeed, the whole board there has taken a downward spiral with attitude and arrogance towards others. Thanks for the refreshing insight here, thank god not every place is going down hill. I sure hope someone can can stop what's happening over there, I guess the kid stealing it has to learn the hard way.
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Reply #1 Thursday, April 4, 2002 8:10 PM
Just look at the lower right image on this page: http://homepage.mac.com/pixelwiz/PhotoAlbum.html