Rip Patrol
Tuesday, November 6, 2001 by davad70 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Ok, I'm feeling like I'm on rip patrol this week, but in checking out visual styles for XP, I'm coming across all sorts of interesting items. Yesterday I found WC member's walls posted somewhere with no credit given. And today.......Alexandrie's Preluna skin sliced and diced into a visual style @ http://www.peakpeak.com/~nicks/themes.html There may some other interesting items there also. There's no contact info, but here's where the link came from http://www.neowin.net/bboard/showthread.php?s=2b515212848513d1fdea3d8a47da7ecb&threadid=4243
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Jafo
Reply #42 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:06 PM
Reply #42 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:06 PM
neodescis...
You have been allowed to post your opinion here, thus upholding this 'first amendment', but please understand that although the US is a big country, vastly more people do not have this 'protection' via The US constitution.
Do not assume you retain this right 'universally', but maybe only in the US.
As for copyright theft, it appears that various new programs in the skinning scene have brought with them new people....new to the laws of copyright and plagiarism.
Skinning is a defensible artform requiring physical endeavour which is capable of being protected under international Intellectual Copyright Law.
It actually crosses more boundarys than your First amendment.
Theft of artwork 'may' be excused through ignorance, but once people are informed of the violation, that excuse is subsequently null and void.
You steal?
You commit an offence.
You suffer consequences.
If a person wishes to remain a respected individual in the International on-line skinning community then you MUST respect the rights of others, else you will be Ostracized, and justafiably so....
You have been allowed to post your opinion here, thus upholding this 'first amendment', but please understand that although the US is a big country, vastly more people do not have this 'protection' via The US constitution.
Do not assume you retain this right 'universally', but maybe only in the US.
As for copyright theft, it appears that various new programs in the skinning scene have brought with them new people....new to the laws of copyright and plagiarism.
Skinning is a defensible artform requiring physical endeavour which is capable of being protected under international Intellectual Copyright Law.
It actually crosses more boundarys than your First amendment.
Theft of artwork 'may' be excused through ignorance, but once people are informed of the violation, that excuse is subsequently null and void.
You steal?
You commit an offence.
You suffer consequences.
If a person wishes to remain a respected individual in the International on-line skinning community then you MUST respect the rights of others, else you will be Ostracized, and justafiably so....
Jafo
Reply #43 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:17 PM
Reply #43 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:17 PM
An update...
The Lost Souls 'rip' was removed from the XP logon site by the site owner after a little discussion or two between he, and me....all politely handled on both sides.
Call it a small win in the on-going battle against theft....
The Lost Souls 'rip' was removed from the XP logon site by the site owner after a little discussion or two between he, and me....all politely handled on both sides.
Call it a small win in the on-going battle against theft....
Alexandrie
Reply #44 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:34 PM
Reply #44 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:34 PM
he is still posting a link with my XPCopper skin I made but in different colors
http://board.iexbeta.com/cgi-bin/ib2/topic.cgi?forum=17&topic=204
http://board.iexbeta.com/cgi-bin/ib2/topic.cgi?forum=17&topic=204
Firestorm
Reply #45 Friday, November 9, 2001 8:20 PM
Reply #45 Friday, November 9, 2001 8:20 PM
*sigh*
Some people's skulls are just too thick to understand...
Some people's skulls are just too thick to understand...
Mr Underhill0286
Reply #46 Friday, November 9, 2001 8:56 PM
Reply #46 Friday, November 9, 2001 8:56 PM
This is a rhetorical question, and is by no meant to cause derision or flame.
My question is plain and simple and by no means is it meaant to be a flame or anything else with negative implications. First, I would like to state theat I have a great and deep respect for Alexandrie, whom I believe to be a talented and innovative digital artist. But as of recently I have noticed that you have taken great offense to the *ripping* of some of your themes. Pre-Luna is understandable, in that it is solely your creation. But your XP luna skins of various colors are in fact *rips* of the actual XP luna interface created by talented microsoft designers. And your themes give no credit to them in the first place. Secondly, I would like to point out that there are various skins, and themes, which are ports of the XP luna interface and in everyone there is once again no referece to the original nameless microsoft designers. This does not exclude OS X skins, and themes, and various other ports based on the look and feel of a particular operating system. Now what I'm getting at here is something that we as a skinning community need to define. We all understand what a *rip* is, but now how does this relate to *ripping* or cloning the interface of and actual OS, these were created by designers and therefore are themes in and of themselves. Were do we draw the line. What I'm proposing consists of two choices, though others may be suggested as well, perhaps we should conclude that a theme based on actual OS is open to *ripping* in that it is already the work of an unamed artist, and therefore it is impossible to get permission. Or we could include in a theme based on an OS and acknowlegement to the original unnamed creators. This would allow any one to create versions of an OS with out the debate of who *ripped* who, becuase the orignal designers have already been *ripped*. Now I realize that Alexandrie's XP themes, are in question here, and by no means do I wish to put down his work or anyone else's but philosophically speaking his were *rips* to begin with. Therefore any debate concerning his works being *ripped* is null-in-void. If I were to make an BeOs skin for WindowBlinds first, and then someone else did later on, would his skin be a *rip* of mine or was mine a *rip* to begin with. I'm by no means trying to dictate change, I just feel that this topic needs to be addressed. *Ripping* others art is most certainly and aggreivous offense, but when the question of whom *ripped* whom first comes in to question, we as the skinning community need to decide how to remedy these kind of situations. Once again I am be no means putting down Alexandrie, I just think that this question needs to be addressed in an open forum.
From a member of wincostomise, deviantart, iexbeta, ls2k, litestep.net, and various other communitites.
Fare the well, lite laughter and sweet water to all.
My question is plain and simple and by no means is it meaant to be a flame or anything else with negative implications. First, I would like to state theat I have a great and deep respect for Alexandrie, whom I believe to be a talented and innovative digital artist. But as of recently I have noticed that you have taken great offense to the *ripping* of some of your themes. Pre-Luna is understandable, in that it is solely your creation. But your XP luna skins of various colors are in fact *rips* of the actual XP luna interface created by talented microsoft designers. And your themes give no credit to them in the first place. Secondly, I would like to point out that there are various skins, and themes, which are ports of the XP luna interface and in everyone there is once again no referece to the original nameless microsoft designers. This does not exclude OS X skins, and themes, and various other ports based on the look and feel of a particular operating system. Now what I'm getting at here is something that we as a skinning community need to define. We all understand what a *rip* is, but now how does this relate to *ripping* or cloning the interface of and actual OS, these were created by designers and therefore are themes in and of themselves. Were do we draw the line. What I'm proposing consists of two choices, though others may be suggested as well, perhaps we should conclude that a theme based on actual OS is open to *ripping* in that it is already the work of an unamed artist, and therefore it is impossible to get permission. Or we could include in a theme based on an OS and acknowlegement to the original unnamed creators. This would allow any one to create versions of an OS with out the debate of who *ripped* who, becuase the orignal designers have already been *ripped*. Now I realize that Alexandrie's XP themes, are in question here, and by no means do I wish to put down his work or anyone else's but philosophically speaking his were *rips* to begin with. Therefore any debate concerning his works being *ripped* is null-in-void. If I were to make an BeOs skin for WindowBlinds first, and then someone else did later on, would his skin be a *rip* of mine or was mine a *rip* to begin with. I'm by no means trying to dictate change, I just feel that this topic needs to be addressed. *Ripping* others art is most certainly and aggreivous offense, but when the question of whom *ripped* whom first comes in to question, we as the skinning community need to decide how to remedy these kind of situations. Once again I am be no means putting down Alexandrie, I just think that this question needs to be addressed in an open forum.
From a member of wincostomise, deviantart, iexbeta, ls2k, litestep.net, and various other communitites.
Fare the well, lite laughter and sweet water to all.
Firestorm
Reply #47 Friday, November 9, 2001 9:22 PM
Reply #47 Friday, November 9, 2001 9:22 PM
If you look carefully, you'll notice that while Alexandrie's XP skins follow the guidelines set forth by the Luna designer(s), all of the graphics are made by Alex herself.
Aside from that, you do raise an interesting point... Personally, I tend to go easy on OS-based skins because OS makers seem to be ok with the creation of skins that are either inspired by or are direct clones of their GUIS (Microsoft endorses WB, even including it in its XP catalog, and I've never heard they have a problem with all the Luna-based skins out there). Be and Next are no longer in business, so that particular point is moot. KDE users have themes that mimic both Windows and the Mac OS, so I find it hard to beliecve they'd hgave a problem with KDE-like skins. As for Apple... They certainly were unhappy about the OSX ports/rips. I don't know what the situation is now.
Aside from that, you do raise an interesting point... Personally, I tend to go easy on OS-based skins because OS makers seem to be ok with the creation of skins that are either inspired by or are direct clones of their GUIS (Microsoft endorses WB, even including it in its XP catalog, and I've never heard they have a problem with all the Luna-based skins out there). Be and Next are no longer in business, so that particular point is moot. KDE users have themes that mimic both Windows and the Mac OS, so I find it hard to beliecve they'd hgave a problem with KDE-like skins. As for Apple... They certainly were unhappy about the OSX ports/rips. I don't know what the situation is now.
Alexandrie
Reply #48 Friday, November 9, 2001 10:30 PM
Reply #48 Friday, November 9, 2001 10:30 PM
so why he don'T color the ORIGINAL LUNA not my graphics
neodescis
Reply #50 Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:16 AM
Reply #50 Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:16 AM
Hey guys - I was actually in the process of creating some new themes to replace the WindowBlinds ones when you posted this last stuff. If you go to my site again, you will see that the new ones ARE based on Luna, not XPCopper (which I don't like anyway, mainly because of the start panel).
And FYI, the reason I choose to skin Styles XP is mainly that I find WindowBlinds to be more unstable and slower. I have tried WB3 RC2, and I can honestly say that I wasn't that impressed.
And by the way, TheHamster - StyleXP actually skins MORE controls than WindowBlinds does. True, it only skins them on applications that support themes, but soon all (or at least most) new applications will.
And FYI, the reason I choose to skin Styles XP is mainly that I find WindowBlinds to be more unstable and slower. I have tried WB3 RC2, and I can honestly say that I wasn't that impressed.
And by the way, TheHamster - StyleXP actually skins MORE controls than WindowBlinds does. True, it only skins them on applications that support themes, but soon all (or at least most) new applications will.
Jafo
Reply #51 Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:29 AM
Reply #51 Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:29 AM
neodescis, since it doesn't even have ontop buttons and roll-up buttons, to name but 2, stylesxp cannot and does not skin more controls etc. than Windowblinds.
Please try to base argument and discussion in a founding of reality....
Please try to base argument and discussion in a founding of reality....
kmkkid
Reply #52 Saturday, November 10, 2001 1:05 AM
Reply #52 Saturday, November 10, 2001 1:05 AM
Hi,
I am Binary from the neowin board (hi brad) As I read through these posts it makes me sick. I have ported the original watercolor skin from whistler build 2419 to msstyles format, does this make me a bad person? No. Because quite frankly there are dozens of watercolor skins for WB. Which I am sure they didnt get permission from MS to do. So now I see new watercolor skins poping up (ugly I might add but oh well ) and parts of them are actually taken straight out of my theme, I can tell because I changed some to my likings, I said to one guy that I dont mind, but it wasnt cool of him to not give any credit to me. So I dont see the point here, If people like your theme so much that they want to port it to another skin format, why not let them? I know I wouldnt care, and it took me over 3 weeks to make my theme. If they give credit then all should be fine imho. Especially since most of the WB skinners are dedicated to WB and wouldnt even consider looking at another format..
This is just my two cents worth, which is actually worth 1 cent since I'm Canadian
Chris
I am Binary from the neowin board (hi brad
) As I read through these posts it makes me sick. I have ported the original watercolor skin from whistler build 2419 to msstyles format, does this make me a bad person? No. Because quite frankly there are dozens of watercolor skins for WB. Which I am sure they didnt get permission from MS to do. So now I see new watercolor skins poping up (ugly I might add but oh well ) and parts of them are actually taken straight out of my theme, I can tell because I changed some to my likings, I said to one guy that I dont mind, but it wasnt cool of him to not give any credit to me. So I dont see the point here, If people like your theme so much that they want to port it to another skin format, why not let them? I know I wouldnt care, and it took me over 3 weeks to make my theme. If they give credit then all should be fine imho. Especially since most of the WB skinners are dedicated to WB and wouldnt even consider looking at another format..This is just my two cents worth, which is actually worth 1 cent since I'm Canadian
Chris
Firestorm
Reply #53 Saturday, November 10, 2001 2:36 AM
Reply #53 Saturday, November 10, 2001 2:36 AM
kmkkid, if you don't mind other people "borrowing" from your work, that's your right. By the same token, it is our right to say "no" if we don't want our artwork ripped.
T-Man
Reply #54 Saturday, November 10, 2001 2:56 AM
Reply #54 Saturday, November 10, 2001 2:56 AM
neodecsis - "And by the way, TheHamster - StyleXP actually skins MORE controls than WindowBlinds does. "
Correction, StyleXP does not skin anything. Its not a skinning programming, its a hackers utility. Its Microsofts .mstyles and their Visual Style engine that skins items, not StylesXP.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.
Correction, StyleXP does not skin anything. Its not a skinning programming, its a hackers utility. Its Microsofts .mstyles and their Visual Style engine that skins items, not StylesXP.
Just trying to keep the facts straight.
Istari
Reply #55 Saturday, November 10, 2001 3:53 AM
Reply #55 Saturday, November 10, 2001 3:53 AM
Hi kimkid. I am a bit of a fan of yours from your Watercolor skin.
Watercolor doesn't actually exist publicly so there is no one to object. OS skins are generally considered to be a gray area where the OS vendor will quickly pipe up if there's a problem like Apple sometimes does. But taking from a fellow skinner is not a good thing.
I think some slack should be given to neodescis. Even after all the flaming he has it seems agreed to work on original creations now. A less mature person might have been tempted to do a 'go ahead, make my day' stance and we'd have neverending flame wars on all the related sites which would suck.
I'm an employee of Stardock but i've used StylesXP to hack it so that I can use skins made for MS's format. The skins are pretty crippled in what they can do and I find the new WB beta to be faster anyway.
Watercolor doesn't actually exist publicly so there is no one to object. OS skins are generally considered to be a gray area where the OS vendor will quickly pipe up if there's a problem like Apple sometimes does. But taking from a fellow skinner is not a good thing.
I think some slack should be given to neodescis. Even after all the flaming he has it seems agreed to work on original creations now. A less mature person might have been tempted to do a 'go ahead, make my day' stance and we'd have neverending flame wars on all the related sites which would suck.
I'm an employee of Stardock but i've used StylesXP to hack it so that I can use skins made for MS's format. The skins are pretty crippled in what they can do and I find the new WB beta to be faster anyway.
kmkkid
Reply #56 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:01 AM
Reply #56 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:01 AM
Thanks Tandis
I know it's sort of different between an OS skin and a program skin such as WB. I just think skinners should open up more, not be soooo hmm whats the word.... protective. Obviously now that there are other options then WB people are going to "rip" skins, it's unavoidable (and sort of a compliment). So they way I see it, if people can improve upon your work, great, but they should at least give credit It's only fair.
Chris
I know it's sort of different between an OS skin and a program skin such as WB. I just think skinners should open up more, not be soooo hmm whats the word.... protective. Obviously now that there are other options then WB people are going to "rip" skins, it's unavoidable (and sort of a compliment). So they way I see it, if people can improve upon your work, great, but they should at least give credit
It's only fair.Chris
Istari
Reply #57 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:14 AM
Reply #57 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:14 AM
But that decision should rest with the author.
Case in point I mentioned to Brad today, I used to write little freeware apps and released them with source code for OS/2. I would have been very very very upset if somebody had taken my code and ported it to 'windoze' without my permission. Just because I give away the source code doesn't mean I'm giving away the copyright.
Case in point I mentioned to Brad today, I used to write little freeware apps and released them with source code for OS/2. I would have been very very very upset if somebody had taken my code and ported it to 'windoze' without my permission. Just because I give away the source code doesn't mean I'm giving away the copyright.
kmkkid
Reply #58 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:25 AM
Reply #58 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:25 AM
I understand completely. It is up to the author. I just wish they would allow people to do it, because there are some great WB skins, and chances are these WB skin authors arnt going to take the time to port their skins to msstyles on their own. I would never rip a WB skin without permission, in fact I was going to email someone and ask permission for a certain skin. But I just might not do it now, since most WB authors will probably say no 
In fact I dont even know if it would be considered ripping, heres what I was gonna do: I have tried all of the WB watercolor skins, and I really enjoyed this one skin that had about 5 different colour variations. Now I was going to include some of these colour variations in my watercolor theme as substyles, but I figured I should ask first in case it was ripping. I dont think it really is, but it would still be polite
Tell me your opinion
Thanks,
Chris
In fact I dont even know if it would be considered ripping, heres what I was gonna do: I have tried all of the WB watercolor skins, and I really enjoyed this one skin that had about 5 different colour variations. Now I was going to include some of these colour variations in my watercolor theme as substyles, but I figured I should ask first in case it was ripping. I dont think it really is, but it would still be polite Tell me your opinion
Thanks,
Chris
kmkkid
Reply #59 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:30 AM
Reply #59 Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:30 AM
BTW if anyone can tell me how to get ahold of marcelo garcia please email me @ [email protected]
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Reply #41 Friday, November 9, 2001 7:00 PM