Does copy protection create software pirates?
Sunday, September 21, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
So does putting copy protection on CDs thwart pirates or does it create more? How can you reduce software piracy?This article says no: https://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=209
My view is this:
1) CD copy protection mainly inconveniences legitimate buyers, not pirates.
2) Most game companies are completely unaware of how *convenient* piracy has become in the last couple of years. CD protection only adds more incentive to pirate. A casual gamer is likely to think "Why am I paying $50 for a game that makes me keep track of fairly delicate things (CDs) when I could, with a few clicks, have the game for free and not have to deal with copy protection?
3) The best way to combat piracy is to make the incentive for being a customer greater than the incentive for being a pirate. Give more benefits to purchasing such as free updates after release that are easy to obtain for legitimate buyers and more difficult for pirates.
That's in a nutshell. This issue really struck a nerve here because I'm packing up for a 3 day trip and as I go through a few games I'd like to play while on the plane or at night in the hotel, I realize that I don't want to take the CDs with me (what if they get scratched or lost?) which means no game. That's ridiculous.
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PhrozenMenace
Reply #2 Sunday, September 21, 2003 10:01 PM
Reply #2 Sunday, September 21, 2003 10:01 PM
I agree with you frogboy..for the ones who bought the cd..games or other forms of entertainment..and some software out there is madd expensive..one lil scratch..and thats like a couple of hundreds or thousands gone down the drain..i think that if you buy something for that much amount of money..you should be able to do what you want with it..its yours..i had a question about this screenshot..everytime i send it..it says that the image didnt go through..and i dont know why..i did it the same method as the other ones...any input admin frogboy and/or Admin Jafo? thanks
Grfx Guru
Reply #3 Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:19 PM
Reply #3 Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:19 PM
I have to agree here, it's more a pain to the legit user than a non legit user. For every protection created there is always someone smart enough to figure out how they did it! And as mentioned once you screw up a CD then that's it! As an example I use Macromedia's Director a lot for client work and after paying I think it was around $1200 for one CD you can imagine I treat it like it's made of gold. I don't mind paying for it, but I'd hate to have to do it again.
Personally I'm really warming to the idea that stardock is an example off and now to a certain extent Macromedia and that is subscription based software. That way the company can keep track of who's using what serial (or what ever) and at the same time it is no hassle to me other than when a server is down which is rare, and at the same time it tells me when updates are out.
My thought is this, bring the price down on software and people will buy it more. I am only too aware of how much development can cost and reproduction and all that side of things as I do it myself for a living; but some of the prices for software are getting ridiculous and let's be honest everytime you buy an application these days you cannot help but say to yourself.......I spend say $100-1000's now and I know they will release a new version in 12 months time and I'll have to do it all over again. A classic example (without getting to high on a soap box) is that I have brought and own Macromedia Director 8.5, now I had to have the MX upgrade to get Flash MX support, and now they tell me I'll have to buy Director MX 2004 to get Flash MX 2004 support. I and other independent developers like me don't have the money to keep buying these things just for one little new feature or even worse 100 bug fixes
I agree with Frogboy, give customers enough of a reason to buy it and they will. And if they don't then you have to ask yourself......what did we do wrong to make them not buy it, don't punish those that did by trying to get a the ones that don't.
Regards to all,
Personally I'm really warming to the idea that stardock is an example off and now to a certain extent Macromedia and that is subscription based software. That way the company can keep track of who's using what serial (or what ever) and at the same time it is no hassle to me other than when a server is down which is rare, and at the same time it tells me when updates are out.
My thought is this, bring the price down on software and people will buy it more. I am only too aware of how much development can cost and reproduction and all that side of things as I do it myself for a living; but some of the prices for software are getting ridiculous and let's be honest everytime you buy an application these days you cannot help but say to yourself.......I spend say $100-1000's now and I know they will release a new version in 12 months time and I'll have to do it all over again. A classic example (without getting to high on a soap box) is that I have brought and own Macromedia Director 8.5, now I had to have the MX upgrade to get Flash MX support, and now they tell me I'll have to buy Director MX 2004 to get Flash MX 2004 support. I and other independent developers like me don't have the money to keep buying these things just for one little new feature or even worse 100 bug fixes
I agree with Frogboy, give customers enough of a reason to buy it and they will. And if they don't then you have to ask yourself......what did we do wrong to make them not buy it, don't punish those that did by trying to get a the ones that don't.
Regards to all,
azdruid
Reply #4 Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:20 PM
Reply #4 Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:20 PM
About not wanting to cart CDs everywhere...Have you ever heard of CloneCD? Well, you can make copies of "copy-protectes" for legitimate uses. Included in the program is an add-on called VirtualCloneDrive. It lets you mount an ISO and use it as a virtual CD drive. There are other progs that do this, but this one works with the copy-protection. What I've done is made ISOs of all my games, stored them locally on my hard drive (you will need gobs of space to do this) and simply mount what I want when I want. It also reduces wear and tear on the actual discs. Give it a shot.
Aleatoric
Reply #5 Monday, September 22, 2003 1:34 AM
Reply #5 Monday, September 22, 2003 1:34 AM
Good article, Brad.
I have to admit to feeling much the same.
Most game publishers (not to mention the music and movie industries) seem to have convinced themselves that everyone is a latent (or extant) thief, with no other goal in mind but to steal everything they can.
Not that there aren't those who behave this way, but I still believe that they aren't the majority. I think most people are willing to pony up for something they want, but many of even the honest are starting to become fed up with the idea that they are presumed guilty, even when they purchase the product.
Copy protection provides *no* real benefit as regards its stated purpose. All it does is say to the consumer that the company they're doing business with thinks that they are a thief. And it does *nothing* at all to actually prevent the theft that they are so concerned about.
Sooner or later, such an attitude will backfire, and badly. A company or business simply cannot continue to insult and alienate the customers that actually keep them in business and expect to stay there in the long term.
I have to admit to feeling much the same.
Most game publishers (not to mention the music and movie industries) seem to have convinced themselves that everyone is a latent (or extant) thief, with no other goal in mind but to steal everything they can.
Not that there aren't those who behave this way, but I still believe that they aren't the majority. I think most people are willing to pony up for something they want, but many of even the honest are starting to become fed up with the idea that they are presumed guilty, even when they purchase the product.
Copy protection provides *no* real benefit as regards its stated purpose. All it does is say to the consumer that the company they're doing business with thinks that they are a thief. And it does *nothing* at all to actually prevent the theft that they are so concerned about.
Sooner or later, such an attitude will backfire, and badly. A company or business simply cannot continue to insult and alienate the customers that actually keep them in business and expect to stay there in the long term.
Urban1
Reply #6 Monday, September 22, 2003 2:05 AM
Reply #6 Monday, September 22, 2003 2:05 AM
I don't think that companies ever wills top piracy of any form which concerns software, music or other stuff what ever they do. Maybe they can limit it, so that it is more less spread on the net, but those who really want it will get it anyway.
craeonics
Reply #7 Monday, September 22, 2003 3:27 AM
Reply #7 Monday, September 22, 2003 3:27 AM
Agreed. The ridiculous forms that copy protection takes these days, makes it only more attractive to use cracks and the like to circumvent those restrictions.
wombatDK
Reply #8 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:51 AM
Reply #8 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:51 AM
I'm a little torn on this issue.
On one side, yes, with some games/programs you really don't need to worry about pirates, as they are essentially based on the internet, and as such you can verify everything server-side. MMORPGs come to mind there.
However, if its on a local machine, there simply IS NO WAY to implement any effective copyprotection. It does not matter if the program requires a download, server-side verification and whatnot.
And as you rightly pointed out, it just inconveniences customers. Personally, I buy everything I use. However, there have been a few cases where I lost the original registration info or CD, and guess what? Sure as heck I see that I get around that, one way or another.
I'm much happier with Stardocks business model, as I can easily recover lost keys, get the software back rather quickly... and am back in business in no time.
On one side, yes, with some games/programs you really don't need to worry about pirates, as they are essentially based on the internet, and as such you can verify everything server-side. MMORPGs come to mind there.
However, if its on a local machine, there simply IS NO WAY to implement any effective copyprotection. It does not matter if the program requires a download, server-side verification and whatnot.
And as you rightly pointed out, it just inconveniences customers. Personally, I buy everything I use. However, there have been a few cases where I lost the original registration info or CD, and guess what? Sure as heck I see that I get around that, one way or another.
I'm much happier with Stardocks business model, as I can easily recover lost keys, get the software back rather quickly... and am back in business in no time.
colfax
Reply #9 Monday, September 22, 2003 8:57 AM
Reply #9 Monday, September 22, 2003 8:57 AM
The software out there like Macromedia and Adobe products that cost an arm and a leg cost as much as they do partly because of piracy. They have to make the money back to keep the company going and pay for new product development. For me, I'm not bothered by paying for upgrades because the money you can make using these programs professionaly pays for the software dozens several times over.
Now, I honestly think we're not too far away from a point where none of your music, movies, or software is distributed on discs. You want a watch a movie, you stream it, listen to music... stream it... wireless networking will change the world.
There will always be piracy, but subscription based life is not too far away...
Now, I honestly think we're not too far away from a point where none of your music, movies, or software is distributed on discs. You want a watch a movie, you stream it, listen to music... stream it... wireless networking will change the world.
There will always be piracy, but subscription based life is not too far away...
kula76
Reply #10 Monday, September 22, 2003 9:55 AM
Reply #10 Monday, September 22, 2003 9:55 AM
Not sure about other forms of software, but as far as games go this is one of the best and so true piracy article's i've ever read.
I hate having to find my game cd and stick it in the drive just so as i can play >
I hate having to find my game cd and stick it in the drive just so as i can play >
dagwud
Reply #11 Monday, September 22, 2003 10:37 AM
Reply #11 Monday, September 22, 2003 10:37 AM
To paraphrase my father, "Copy protection doesn't keep pirates from hacking the data. Copy protection keeps honest people honest." And I would add that it also annoys legitimate users to the point that they seek out illegal alternatives.
I have never purchased an audio CD that was copy protected, but the day I do will be the day I return it to the store and buy no more. If I can't rip it to MP3's for my MP3 player and NOT have my ability to copy it to the MP3 player hindered or limited (switching "albums" so to speak), then I'm going to seek alternatives. I'll either seek out a way to bypass the limitation or...
...I'll do without. Now how is THAT going to help the audio CD manufacturers? hmm?
Software's never been a big issue for me. I buy what I use and I protect the CDs. The ability to use an ISO image of a CD I own rather than haul the disc around is helpful, but I haven't done that...yet.
I have never purchased an audio CD that was copy protected, but the day I do will be the day I return it to the store and buy no more. If I can't rip it to MP3's for my MP3 player and NOT have my ability to copy it to the MP3 player hindered or limited (switching "albums" so to speak), then I'm going to seek alternatives. I'll either seek out a way to bypass the limitation or...
...I'll do without. Now how is THAT going to help the audio CD manufacturers? hmm?
Software's never been a big issue for me. I buy what I use and I protect the CDs. The ability to use an ISO image of a CD I own rather than haul the disc around is helpful, but I haven't done that...yet.
spoon_T_Rex
Reply #12 Monday, September 22, 2003 11:55 AM
Reply #12 Monday, September 22, 2003 11:55 AM
maybe someone can explain this to me, but why is putting a no cd crack onto a game YOU OWN wrong? I understand why they come about (piracy), but some people are like me and hate swapping CDs so often. If I own the game, and I put a no cd crack on to avoid frequent swapping, should I feel quilty in some way? 
Grfx Guru
Reply #13 Monday, September 22, 2003 12:09 PM
Reply #13 Monday, September 22, 2003 12:09 PM
spoon_T_Rex
My best guess is that technically if you read the agreement on things like games and applications, they probably say something about agreeing to not changing, reverse engineering or editing the files in any way. So technically you are breaking your agreement with the software company by doing anything that changes the way it works from the way it was when they released it. That's my guess anyway.
My best guess is that technically if you read the agreement on things like games and applications, they probably say something about agreeing to not changing, reverse engineering or editing the files in any way. So technically you are breaking your agreement with the software company by doing anything that changes the way it works from the way it was when they released it. That's my guess anyway.
Doomgaze
Reply #14 Monday, September 22, 2003 3:06 PM
Reply #14 Monday, September 22, 2003 3:06 PM
the ONLY people that cd copy protection stops is the casual person who feels like sharing a cd with a friend of theirs... or someone trying to copy a cd from work
it will NEVER stop real pirates
nothing has yet
flexlm
copycop
you name it
it'll be cracked in HOURS
even subscription systems don't stop piracy
you can crack their protection/holding also
MMORPG's?
There are two home made servers floating around that people came up with, while I'm not sure if people are even still working on them, they WORKED and well at that. So no, nothing is actually safe.
And please don't keep up with the guise that Macromedia or any of them price their software the way they do because of piracy, its because they CAN, because they OWN the market.
it will NEVER stop real pirates
nothing has yet
flexlm
copycop
you name it
it'll be cracked in HOURS
even subscription systems don't stop piracy
you can crack their protection/holding also
MMORPG's?
There are two home made servers floating around that people came up with, while I'm not sure if people are even still working on them, they WORKED and well at that. So no, nothing is actually safe.
And please don't keep up with the guise that Macromedia or any of them price their software the way they do because of piracy, its because they CAN, because they OWN the market.
BoddhiC
Reply #15 Monday, September 22, 2003 4:16 PM
Reply #15 Monday, September 22, 2003 4:16 PM
Goos article I just wanted to say that I have been a Stardock customer for several years now, and I love how you have set up the Object desktop subscription service. I definately would be more than willing to use a similar setup for its convenience, ease of locating serial numbers (if you redo your harddrive for example) and frequent updates from other companies. I hope other companies take a lesson from you. You have also kept the cost reasonable, I feel like I get alot of value for my dollar with Stardock.
I just wanted to say that I have been a Stardock customer for several years now, and I love how you have set up the Object desktop subscription service. I definately would be more than willing to use a similar setup for its convenience, ease of locating serial numbers (if you redo your harddrive for example) and frequent updates from other companies. I hope other companies take a lesson from you. You have also kept the cost reasonable, I feel like I get alot of value for my dollar with Stardock.
heavyindustry
Reply #16 Monday, September 22, 2003 4:58 PM
Reply #16 Monday, September 22, 2003 4:58 PM
I agree, I used to pirate your software, but what I noticed was that it simply wasn't worth pirating. Your company was updating it so often, and with so many new features, that my pirated version would be almost instantly out of date. I'd always be wanting that new feature in WindowsBlinds ver x.xx or wanting to test out that new cursorXP program.
So I got a membership, and I love it. Its my belief that if a software company can offer me solid software that is consistantly being honed and updated while also offering me a few perks along the way, then I'll buy right in to the subscription model. Otherwise, ill fight vehemently against it.
As for games, I'll pirate them. If they're good, i'll buy. If they include multiplayer thats really solid (Battlefield) I'll buy. Otherwise, they get uninstalled. Its as simple as that, I can't afford to spend money on $70 games only to find them to be stale and uninteresting. So I pirate, and only once I've gotten a taste of the full game do I buy.
So I got a membership, and I love it. Its my belief that if a software company can offer me solid software that is consistantly being honed and updated while also offering me a few perks along the way, then I'll buy right in to the subscription model. Otherwise, ill fight vehemently against it.
As for games, I'll pirate them. If they're good, i'll buy. If they include multiplayer thats really solid (Battlefield) I'll buy. Otherwise, they get uninstalled. Its as simple as that, I can't afford to spend money on $70 games only to find them to be stale and uninteresting. So I pirate, and only once I've gotten a taste of the full game do I buy.
GhoS
Reply #17 Monday, September 22, 2003 5:21 PM
Reply #17 Monday, September 22, 2003 5:21 PM
Your comments bring up a very good point heavyindustry. People don't like shelling out $50 for a game to find out they hate it. I don't know how many times I've done that and it really puts me off into buying games. I think demos or other ways of presenting how the games play is something that can help deter piracy also. Yet hardly any are readily available.
If I get sick of getting burned on bad games, and there is no way to try before you buy, then I could look towards piracy where there is no real way to get burned.
I have bought a LOT more audio cd's than I used to in the past, simply because now I am able to preview songs at brick and mortor or online stores. Those places that don't allow that, don't get my business. So I've greatly minimized the chance of buying a CD I don't like and therefore am actually buying more of them because of that confidence.
I think that is more or less what Brad is getting at, give the Customers reasons to be customers, and you'll in effect have less piracy.
If I get sick of getting burned on bad games, and there is no way to try before you buy, then I could look towards piracy where there is no real way to get burned.
I have bought a LOT more audio cd's than I used to in the past, simply because now I am able to preview songs at brick and mortor or online stores. Those places that don't allow that, don't get my business. So I've greatly minimized the chance of buying a CD I don't like and therefore am actually buying more of them because of that confidence.
I think that is more or less what Brad is getting at, give the Customers reasons to be customers, and you'll in effect have less piracy.
CarpeThis
Reply #18 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:01 PM
Reply #18 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:01 PM
Hallelujah! 
Someone finally gets it. It's the simple economics of it. If there is enough value to being a customer, most people will chose that option. I can't even tell you how many times I rebuild my desktop and laptop(I'm a software developer), and I love the fact that re-loading everything from my ObjectDesktop Suite is so darn simple. Low cost + ease of use + frequent updates = many loyal customers I'm glad to see Stardock not capitulating into the growing trend of treating customers like criminals, and showing their success with healthy profits.
I've lost the CD's to games I love to play and had to go to the net to get the cracks. I've bought $60 games that really sucked and made me wish I hadn't spent the money on it. Just last month I wanted to load up some old games that I hadn't played in a while, but when I tried to download the most recent updates, it complained that my CD Serials were no longer valid. Argh! >
Make it cheaper and easier and you will make great profit on the volume of customers....
Now if the music industry would only figure this out. Their customers are telling them in droves that they are not willing to shell out $16 for a CD that they can't copy to their computer or portable player and has 50% crappy songs on it...
Thanks Brad.
Someone finally gets it. It's the simple economics of it. If there is enough value to being a customer, most people will chose that option. I can't even tell you how many times I rebuild my desktop and laptop(I'm a software developer), and I love the fact that re-loading everything from my ObjectDesktop Suite is so darn simple. Low cost + ease of use + frequent updates = many loyal customers I'm glad to see Stardock not capitulating into the growing trend of treating customers like criminals, and showing their success with healthy profits.I've lost the CD's to games I love to play and had to go to the net to get the cracks. I've bought $60 games that really sucked and made me wish I hadn't spent the money on it. Just last month I wanted to load up some old games that I hadn't played in a while, but when I tried to download the most recent updates, it complained that my CD Serials were no longer valid. Argh! >
Make it cheaper and easier and you will make great profit on the volume of customers....
Now if the music industry would only figure this out. Their customers are telling them in droves that they are not willing to shell out $16 for a CD that they can't copy to their computer or portable player and has 50% crappy songs on it...
Thanks Brad.
Drop125
Reply #19 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:50 PM
Reply #19 Monday, September 22, 2003 7:50 PM
Okay, I do not play games on my computer at all..Only ones on my system are solitare and minesweep..So what I understand is that all you gamers generally have to have the disk in hand to play your game(just like gameboy and a cartridge.)..I could see how lugging a cd and risking damage to said cd could be really aggrivating..and I see your point and reasoning on this..Now that someones explained it I can see how inteligent Stardock is on the issue..(not like I ever questioned their inteligence anyways..) but I love the convience of this subscription software..Thanks guys...!
Squidly
Reply #20 Monday, September 22, 2003 9:31 PM
Reply #20 Monday, September 22, 2003 9:31 PM
I would have to agree with FrogBoy. I have been deeply involved in the computer industry for about 20 years now. In that time I have seen copy protection devices of one form or another, come and go. The results have always been the same. Ultimately, lost revenue to the manufacturer. Wasted time, effort and money to devise the copy protection, lost sales due to customer inconvenience. For me, the bottom line is simple.
Make the product worth the money and you don't need to protect it!
This is where Microsoft has such a problem. Their products aren't worth what they charge, and as such, they have created one of the worst piracy problems of all time. In most cases, we are FORCED to use their products and thus, they can charge what they will, pushing those of us that can't afford their products, into pirating them.
I have been running a small web-hosting business for many years, and the cost is enormous. Once in a while though, I do find a product that is worth paying the thousands of $ for and I will actually buy it, even though I could easily pirate it. In the past I have pirated products, used them for a while, then find the one that actually works well and I buy it. It upsets me to see so many companies (software, games, etc.) that feel they can doop the consumer into spending so much money for a poor product with lousy customer service. NO VALUE...
In the long run, the consumer controls the piracy protection. If the product shows no value, steal it! If it's a good value, support the producer and buy it!
Wonderful topic!! One that I have thought a great deal about over the years. Thanks... great comments!
Make the product worth the money and you don't need to protect it!
This is where Microsoft has such a problem. Their products aren't worth what they charge, and as such, they have created one of the worst piracy problems of all time. In most cases, we are FORCED to use their products and thus, they can charge what they will, pushing those of us that can't afford their products, into pirating them.
I have been running a small web-hosting business for many years, and the cost is enormous. Once in a while though, I do find a product that is worth paying the thousands of $ for and I will actually buy it, even though I could easily pirate it. In the past I have pirated products, used them for a while, then find the one that actually works well and I buy it. It upsets me to see so many companies (software, games, etc.) that feel they can doop the consumer into spending so much money for a poor product with lousy customer service. NO VALUE...
In the long run, the consumer controls the piracy protection. If the product shows no value, steal it! If it's a good value, support the producer and buy it!
Wonderful topic!! One that I have thought a great deal about over the years. Thanks... great comments!
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Reply #1 Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:31 PM