I hate to be Simon but...
Sunday, February 2, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
You visit most sites that have themes and skins and you'll notice that have a gazillion wallpapers. You come here and you see fewer than 3000. Why is that? It's because we reject 9 out of 10 submissions.
Now, most of the moderators here are nice. They send out often lengthy emails to the authors of these wallpapers explaining why they were rejected. In return, they regularly get flamed, personal attacks and occasionally threatened.
I'm not nice. I don't send moderator notices. I'm the "Simon" from American Idol. I don't like spending time on a thoughtful email to have the author resond by attacking me. I just delete them. Sorry. I know that lots of these wallpapers are pretty good that get rejected. I know that many people spent many hours on these wallpapers. But there are dozens of sites that you can submit them too. Our goal here is to keep the number low. So that it's the "best of the best". Sure, occasionally something mediocre will get through and we are biased in favor of WALLPAPERS as opposed to works of art. But in general we try to ensure that the wallpaper section is kept as small as possible.
I know this upsets some people based on the emails that our poor VOLUNTEER moderators get. But I'm going to recommend that moderation emails become rare. It's just too discouraging for our VOLUNTEER moderators to get trashed in email for trying to gently tell them why their wallpaper didn't come up. Wallpapers that don't meet our criteria will simply be deleted. We hope you understand that with hundreds of wallpapers submitted every few days that this is the only way to reasonably get through them and provide a fair way for everyone.
Now, most of the moderators here are nice. They send out often lengthy emails to the authors of these wallpapers explaining why they were rejected. In return, they regularly get flamed, personal attacks and occasionally threatened.
I'm not nice. I don't send moderator notices. I'm the "Simon" from American Idol. I don't like spending time on a thoughtful email to have the author resond by attacking me. I just delete them. Sorry. I know that lots of these wallpapers are pretty good that get rejected. I know that many people spent many hours on these wallpapers. But there are dozens of sites that you can submit them too. Our goal here is to keep the number low. So that it's the "best of the best". Sure, occasionally something mediocre will get through and we are biased in favor of WALLPAPERS as opposed to works of art. But in general we try to ensure that the wallpaper section is kept as small as possible.
I know this upsets some people based on the emails that our poor VOLUNTEER moderators get. But I'm going to recommend that moderation emails become rare. It's just too discouraging for our VOLUNTEER moderators to get trashed in email for trying to gently tell them why their wallpaper didn't come up. Wallpapers that don't meet our criteria will simply be deleted. We hope you understand that with hundreds of wallpapers submitted every few days that this is the only way to reasonably get through them and provide a fair way for everyone.
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Aqua.
Reply #62 Monday, February 3, 2003 10:47 PM
Reply #62 Monday, February 3, 2003 10:47 PM
I like Novagene Lyons's idea of sending out the comments from addresses that cannot be replied to.
chichigirl46
Reply #63 Monday, February 3, 2003 11:15 PM
Reply #63 Monday, February 3, 2003 11:15 PM
The only thing I have to say is all those comments that are a personal attack on a skinner, please remove..... you have stressed this time after time there will be no personal attacks acceptable on this site! What I have read has been disgusting, personally attacking adni18 and others that have been named here.... and my personal opinion, skinbase.org is my home and don't like what was said here, giving a link to send your garbage to skinbase, that statement is just offensive 
Buko22
Reply #64 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 12:53 AM
Reply #64 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 12:53 AM
This thread is the biggest crock of bull crap I have ever read! Frogboy, in your last paragraph of this news post, you say, quote:
"I know this upsets some people based on the emails that our poor VOLUNTEER moderators get. But I'm going to recommend that moderation emails become rare. It's just too discouraging for our VOLUNTEER moderators to get trashed in email for trying to gently tell them why their wallpaper didn't come up. Wallpapers that don't meet our criteria will simply be deleted. We hope you understand that with hundreds of wallpapers submitted every few days that this is the only way to reasonably get through them and provide a fair way for everyone."
Do you honestly believe a statement like that will provide a fair way for everyone? I think not. Before you invoke this theory of yours, it behooves you to POST your guidelines so that ALL will know just what your "criteria" is for a Wallpaper. For without these guidelines you leave yourself and your poor moderators open for criticism. Not to mention the fact that it would eliminate the need for most of those emails.
From my observations, I see an awful lot of favoritism shown on this site. I can't help but wonder, if guidelines were posted how many of the favorite authors would make it through moderation.
I know that you will not take this post as it was meant, and for that I feel sorry for you. You will continue to run this site to suite YOUR needs and look the other way when it comes to the people that contribute so much to this site.
"I know this upsets some people based on the emails that our poor VOLUNTEER moderators get. But I'm going to recommend that moderation emails become rare. It's just too discouraging for our VOLUNTEER moderators to get trashed in email for trying to gently tell them why their wallpaper didn't come up. Wallpapers that don't meet our criteria will simply be deleted. We hope you understand that with hundreds of wallpapers submitted every few days that this is the only way to reasonably get through them and provide a fair way for everyone."
Do you honestly believe a statement like that will provide a fair way for everyone? I think not. Before you invoke this theory of yours, it behooves you to POST your guidelines so that ALL will know just what your "criteria" is for a Wallpaper. For without these guidelines you leave yourself and your poor moderators open for criticism. Not to mention the fact that it would eliminate the need for most of those emails.
From my observations, I see an awful lot of favoritism shown on this site. I can't help but wonder, if guidelines were posted how many of the favorite authors would make it through moderation.
I know that you will not take this post as it was meant, and for that I feel sorry for you. You will continue to run this site to suite YOUR needs and look the other way when it comes to the people that contribute so much to this site.
Jafo
Reply #65 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 1:06 AM
Reply #65 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 1:06 AM
Buko22.
The 'criteria' is...
The Admins/moderators of this site reserve the right to determine what shall and shall not be accepted for hosting.
This is absolute and unequivocal.
Suggestion of 'favouritism' goes as far as distinguishing that some members have earned the right to post without 'moderation'.
Determining just who is granted that capability is again the sole responsibility of the 'senior' members of this site.
The line drawn 'in the sand' regarding what gets the chop is a product of [informed] opinion, and not a specific 'check-list' where you point and exclaim..."but I have no lens-flare or jaggy bevels, I demand to be accepted!!!!!!".
The 'criteria' is...
The Admins/moderators of this site reserve the right to determine what shall and shall not be accepted for hosting.
This is absolute and unequivocal.
Suggestion of 'favouritism' goes as far as distinguishing that some members have earned the right to post without 'moderation'.
Determining just who is granted that capability is again the sole responsibility of the 'senior' members of this site.
The line drawn 'in the sand' regarding what gets the chop is a product of [informed] opinion, and not a specific 'check-list' where you point and exclaim..."but I have no lens-flare or jaggy bevels, I demand to be accepted!!!!!!".
Jafo
Reply #66 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 1:12 AM
Reply #66 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 1:12 AM
Buko22...
Is this perchance an irate response to a rejection?
I see you have, as yet posted nothing here.
I could, yet again post the entire philosophy behind wall moderation for those who still haven't seen it, but again, its 'criteria' are 'generalities' not exactitudes...
Is this perchance an irate response to a rejection?
I see you have, as yet posted nothing here.
I could, yet again post the entire philosophy behind wall moderation for those who still haven't seen it, but again, its 'criteria' are 'generalities' not exactitudes...
craeonics
Reply #67 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:55 AM
Reply #67 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:55 AM
No frogman, I mean that you sent people a message to tell them their work has been removed/moderated. And I don't mean you have to manually do so.
For example, one could automagically sent out an email to the author of said submission when his/her thing is moderated (like in: when you click on the "moderate" button). The reply address could be [email protected] and all mail to that account could go straight into the trash (or not).
For example, one could automagically sent out an email to the author of said submission when his/her thing is moderated (like in: when you click on the "moderate" button). The reply address could be [email protected] and all mail to that account could go straight into the trash (or not).
craeonics
Reply #68 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:58 AM
Reply #68 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:58 AM
As in:
1. Jafo clicks on "moderate this crud"
2. Crud is removed and the message "Your crud was removed. Learn some skills first" is automatically sent to the author by the server in one go
3. Author sends angry mails back
4. But these go straight into the trash
5. Everyone happy (except said author)
1. Jafo clicks on "moderate this crud"
2. Crud is removed and the message "Your crud was removed. Learn some skills first" is automatically sent to the author by the server in one go
3. Author sends angry mails back
4. But these go straight into the trash
5. Everyone happy (except said author)
goteki
Reply #69 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 5:13 AM
Reply #69 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 5:13 AM
crap, sorry about that. i have no idea what happened
Jafo
Reply #70 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:05 AM
Reply #70 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:05 AM
It's OK, goteki....I fixed it for you...
Crae....it'd almost work that way, but 'said author' would hop gaily onto the Message Board and wax philosophical about the ills of the world and drive even more people 'nuts', not just the moderators...
Crae....it'd almost work that way, but 'said author' would hop gaily onto the Message Board and wax philosophical about the ills of the world and drive even more people 'nuts', not just the moderators...
Dokt
Reply #71 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:22 AM
Reply #71 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:22 AM
This site has always had the stink of favouritism about it and operating this policy (which is news to me) whereby certain l33t skinners can upload any old crap because they're friends-of-the-frog is, frankly, insulting. You guys ever read Animal Farm - "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others". Ring any bells? So, some enthusiastic newbie uploads his first wallpaper, the moderators say "dear me, his shiny Bryce torus's aren't anywhere up to the standard we require" and it gets rejected. Then l33t-skinner comes along, uploads their shiny Bryce torus wall and the moderators say "ah yes, wave it through, its l33t-skinner, his shiny Bryce torus's are simply amazing". I'd probably get upset too.
People bitch about DeviantArt, but at least everyone has a voice there. I can click on Wallpapers>Abstract and I'll see 60 thumbnails, which is an average upload there for a day and it's immediately obvious which are the Wincustomise-quality Bryce-torus specials and which are the decent wallpapers. At the end of the day, it's just hard drive space - if a wallpaper is really that bad then nobody's going to download it and your precious bandwidth will remain unsullied. All that moderating does is say "your opinion is worthless - we know better than you". Well, sorry folks. You don't.
People bitch about DeviantArt, but at least everyone has a voice there. I can click on Wallpapers>Abstract and I'll see 60 thumbnails, which is an average upload there for a day and it's immediately obvious which are the Wincustomise-quality Bryce-torus specials and which are the decent wallpapers. At the end of the day, it's just hard drive space - if a wallpaper is really that bad then nobody's going to download it and your precious bandwidth will remain unsullied. All that moderating does is say "your opinion is worthless - we know better than you". Well, sorry folks. You don't.
Lecrayon
Reply #72 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 8:03 AM
Reply #72 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 8:03 AM
Crae: nice idea, but people can mail the admins anyhow. And the message board is willing too. Also BoXXi: What happened to my upload?? Why isn't it placed yet? You can get those mails and then maybe a lousy negative comment if you respond. I think a certain politeness of returning a thank you for uplaod but hasn't met admins approval to host/display is the least you can do to send to all those who take the effort to create a wall.
Frogboy
Reply #73 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 12:13 PM
Reply #73 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 12:13 PM
Dokt -
Yes, in the real world, some people are more equal than others (to carry through on your Animal Farm analogy).
Some people have access so that their uploads bypass moderation. We give that access to people who have uploaded a lot of stuff over a long period of time that we think is good and that people seem to like. It saves us time in having to moderate. Does that mean we play favorites? Yes. Absolutely.
Sooner or later people have to realize that while we ideally start out equal in life, people inevitably rise to different levels based on their merits (ideally). People don't get access here because we "like them" personally, access is based on merit.
After all, you yourself have Master Apprentice access, higher access than 99% of the users here. And are you not one of our most vocal critics? Yet you have that high access because of merit - you've created wonderful stuff and shared it with the community.
I don't care about the wallpapers. When I look at the new submissions, I want to see mostly skins. Not yet another wallpaper unless it's really really good. Similarly, when I want to find a wallpaper to use, I come here as do millions of others precisely because they don't have to sift through all the mediocre wallpapers that are on other sites. Before WinCustomize, I had to go to Digital Blasphemy to get good walls (and they charge money btw, far more than a WC subscription).
No one is forcing or even asking anyone to submit wallpapers. People upload them here because wallpapers that do get past moderation are seen and downloaded more than any other place in the entire world. That is the plus side. There is no other site, anywhere, that offers wallpaper makers the exposure they get here. So it's a pretty good trade off in my view.
And as for Adni, I agree with Chichigirl on that, whether you personally care for his stuff or not, it's very popular so obviously it wasn't a mistake to not moderate it.
Yes, in the real world, some people are more equal than others (to carry through on your Animal Farm analogy).
Some people have access so that their uploads bypass moderation. We give that access to people who have uploaded a lot of stuff over a long period of time that we think is good and that people seem to like. It saves us time in having to moderate. Does that mean we play favorites? Yes. Absolutely.
Sooner or later people have to realize that while we ideally start out equal in life, people inevitably rise to different levels based on their merits (ideally). People don't get access here because we "like them" personally, access is based on merit.
After all, you yourself have Master Apprentice access, higher access than 99% of the users here. And are you not one of our most vocal critics? Yet you have that high access because of merit - you've created wonderful stuff and shared it with the community.
I don't care about the wallpapers. When I look at the new submissions, I want to see mostly skins. Not yet another wallpaper unless it's really really good. Similarly, when I want to find a wallpaper to use, I come here as do millions of others precisely because they don't have to sift through all the mediocre wallpapers that are on other sites. Before WinCustomize, I had to go to Digital Blasphemy to get good walls (and they charge money btw, far more than a WC subscription).
No one is forcing or even asking anyone to submit wallpapers. People upload them here because wallpapers that do get past moderation are seen and downloaded more than any other place in the entire world. That is the plus side. There is no other site, anywhere, that offers wallpaper makers the exposure they get here. So it's a pretty good trade off in my view.
And as for Adni, I agree with Chichigirl on that, whether you personally care for his stuff or not, it's very popular so obviously it wasn't a mistake to not moderate it.
Here,here!!! Well said.
bigsynic
Reply #75 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:18 PM
Reply #75 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:18 PM
I actually like the idea of my work being moderated. Coming from deviant art, i got used to submitting anything and everything. being moderated helps me push to develop a better artistic eye.
while i wouldn't send a nasty email to a moderator, i would suggest that some guidelines for the moderators be established and that they ALL should follow them.
i know that i've looked at the submission guidelines whenever i submit a piece of my own, and invariably i'll see something that has been posted that directly contradicts those guidelines...
it seems that theres no continuity in the moderating process.
BUT I LOVE IT HERE!!!!!!
while i wouldn't send a nasty email to a moderator, i would suggest that some guidelines for the moderators be established and that they ALL should follow them.
i know that i've looked at the submission guidelines whenever i submit a piece of my own, and invariably i'll see something that has been posted that directly contradicts those guidelines...
it seems that theres no continuity in the moderating process.
BUT I LOVE IT HERE!!!!!!
Buko22
Reply #76 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:32 PM
Reply #76 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:32 PM
Jafo,
So in essence what you are saying is that the wallpapers here at Wincustomize reflect the tastes and likes of its Admin/Moderators. With the exception of those distinguished members who earned the right to post without moderation. This is absolute and unequivocal.
What ever happened to the author/artist, after all it was his/her expressions that created the art. So as an author, I have to keep in mind your likes and dislikes while creating my abstract art wallpaper. How quaint. I can see it now. Lets take 'Beauty' (it's an abstract in its own right) I am going to create a beautiful wallpaper. I know that it is beautiful because I can feel it as I create. The more I see of it the more beautiful it becomes... But wait a minute, will the admin/moderator at WC think it's beautiful? Hmmmmmmmmm...
In answer to your query. I don't feel that I was irate in my first post and you should not assume that it was a response to a rejection. I do recommend that you make available any information which describes the criteria for wallpapers to be submitted.
So in essence what you are saying is that the wallpapers here at Wincustomize reflect the tastes and likes of its Admin/Moderators. With the exception of those distinguished members who earned the right to post without moderation. This is absolute and unequivocal.
What ever happened to the author/artist, after all it was his/her expressions that created the art. So as an author, I have to keep in mind your likes and dislikes while creating my abstract art wallpaper. How quaint. I can see it now. Lets take 'Beauty' (it's an abstract in its own right) I am going to create a beautiful wallpaper. I know that it is beautiful because I can feel it as I create. The more I see of it the more beautiful it becomes... But wait a minute, will the admin/moderator at WC think it's beautiful? Hmmmmmmmmm...
In answer to your query. I don't feel that I was irate in my first post and you should not assume that it was a response to a rejection. I do recommend that you make available any information which describes the criteria for wallpapers to be submitted.
bigsynic
Reply #77 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:40 PM
Reply #77 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:40 PM
ok... i have to take back my previous statement. it was made before i had read the entire thread.
after reading through all of the statements, i've heard an admin member mention more than once that he didn't care about wallpapers, and that there is favoritism here with regards to the moderation of art.
i'm fairly new at all this, and wallpapers are the only way for me to fulfill my artistic "appetites", if you will. hell, i actually thought i was sharing something meaningful. however, i stumbled on to this sight basically by accident, and didn't realize it was a skinners site. sorry.
as for the arguments regarding favoritism... i think most of that is pretty childish. if your passing someones mediocre art because they're popular artists, or because they're a "buddy", well, that's just wrong.
and as for giving someone a free pass around any moderation whatsoever based on past works. well, i don't think even the best artist can say every piece they've ever turned out is "stellar"...
either way, i think this is the wrong place for me. i'm out.
after reading through all of the statements, i've heard an admin member mention more than once that he didn't care about wallpapers, and that there is favoritism here with regards to the moderation of art.
i'm fairly new at all this, and wallpapers are the only way for me to fulfill my artistic "appetites", if you will. hell, i actually thought i was sharing something meaningful. however, i stumbled on to this sight basically by accident, and didn't realize it was a skinners site. sorry.
as for the arguments regarding favoritism... i think most of that is pretty childish. if your passing someones mediocre art because they're popular artists, or because they're a "buddy", well, that's just wrong.
and as for giving someone a free pass around any moderation whatsoever based on past works. well, i don't think even the best artist can say every piece they've ever turned out is "stellar"...
either way, i think this is the wrong place for me. i'm out.
Frogboy
Reply #78 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:03 PM
Reply #78 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:03 PM
Again: No one gets by because they are a 'buddy'. Moderators use their own judgement as to whether something is good or not. We do the best we can. If this is unsufficient for someone, they can submit their stuff elsewhere. The results speak for themselves - no website on earth gets more wallpaper downloads per day than wincustomize (except maybe webshots but that is a different thing entirely).
Bringing it all around, it's like American Idol. The judges determine who is a good performer based on their own considerable experience. Those who are rejected are often rather irate. The same is true here.
Bringing it all around, it's like American Idol. The judges determine who is a good performer based on their own considerable experience. Those who are rejected are often rather irate. The same is true here.
crissy14
Reply #79 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 8:16 PM
Reply #79 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 8:16 PM
2 cents from an ordinary citizen
Ive been browsing around in the wallpaper section...more extensively than I've done so in a long time. I saw a good number of wallpapers that dont suite my taste and a good number of them that look like Bryce did a fair amount of the work. But what I also saw was, for the most part a VERY IMPRESSIVE WALLPAPER GALLERY. Win customize should be proud to have such a gallery. I think a lot of these wallpapers could compliment any number of the windowblinds skins. Even the ones I dont particularly care for (just because I dont like them, doesn't mean they're not good) And I have not seen such a wonderful collection anywhere else on the web as I see here. I think you should be as selective (but Fair) as you need to be, but I think It would be a darn shame if the wallpaper section was eliminated. I aree with the moderation procedure . Im sure its very necessary and Im sorry to hear that some of the moderaters are getting flamed. I think It's a down right shame that there are some who take such offense to a rejection and then try to get even by evil words. My rejections only made me strive to do better, and Im willing to bet that you would find that most people probably feel the same. If the wallpapers were eliminated, I would see it as a great loss to the value and wonderfulness of this site .
Ive been browsing around in the wallpaper section...more extensively than I've done so in a long time. I saw a good number of wallpapers that dont suite my taste and a good number of them that look like Bryce did a fair amount of the work. But what I also saw was, for the most part a VERY IMPRESSIVE WALLPAPER GALLERY. Win customize should be proud to have such a gallery. I think a lot of these wallpapers could compliment any number of the windowblinds skins. Even the ones I dont particularly care for (just because I dont like them, doesn't mean they're not good) And I have not seen such a wonderful collection anywhere else on the web as I see here. I think you should be as selective (but Fair) as you need to be, but I think It would be a darn shame if the wallpaper section was eliminated. I aree with the moderation procedure . Im sure its very necessary and Im sorry to hear that some of the moderaters are getting flamed. I think It's a down right shame that there are some who take such offense to a rejection and then try to get even by evil words. My rejections only made me strive to do better, and Im willing to bet that you would find that most people probably feel the same. If the wallpapers were eliminated, I would see it as a great loss to the value and wonderfulness of this site .
Jafo
Reply #80 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 10:00 PM
Reply #80 Tuesday, February 4, 2003 10:00 PM
With the better part of a million registered members, all with the potential to upload submissions, eg, walls, it is clear that the VAST majority of walls submitted go through 'moderation' and the few who don't make up a fair proportion of the 'better' works on this site.
Sure, some walls by the more proliffic unmoderated uploaders are less than their best, but by and large, are significantly of higher standard than many that are rejected.
It is only 'common decency' NOT to post examples of 'poor submissions' but you might like to take a certain infamous 'Still Lost In Bryceworld' as a good indicator of what NOT to submit.
I'm still trying to include ALL the deadly graphic sins that distinguish the bad from the not bad......I have a few more to go yet....
Sure, some walls by the more proliffic unmoderated uploaders are less than their best, but by and large, are significantly of higher standard than many that are rejected.
It is only 'common decency' NOT to post examples of 'poor submissions' but you might like to take a certain infamous 'Still Lost In Bryceworld' as a good indicator of what NOT to submit.
I'm still trying to include ALL the deadly graphic sins that distinguish the bad from the not bad......I have a few more to go yet....
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Reply #61 Monday, February 3, 2003 10:35 PM
With strict limitations, the accepted walls total 2859, numerically larger than the WB section, even now.
If neither had any 'moderation' what-so-ever, their sizes now would be approx...WB skins 2300 [allowing some ripping/copyright issues]
Wallpapers...20 to 30,000 by now [although a few hundred would likely be the same pic of Britney's boobs].
Clearly, without moderation, Wincustomize would become just another Wallpaper site with the odd skin or three.
That is not going to happen...