Poll Result: Should military force be used against Iraq?
Tuesday, January 21, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
There are many principled viewpoints on both sides. And, unfortunately, there's a lot of arrogance on both sides as well.
-- The case against military action --
On the case against military action, there is the simple fact that Iraq is a sovereign country and that the world is supposed to put its faith into the United Nations to determine when military action against a country is warranted. The UN has enacted a new resolution that provides for military inspectors to help ensure that Iraq has given up its weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps more time could be given to make the dtermination of whether Iraq has really complied.
Besides, a regime change in Iraq, as terrible as Saddam is, would leave quite a vacuum which could destabilize the entire middle east. Terrorist reprisals could be made on western countries and an unknown number of innocent civilians could be harmed in the process. It seems a better way might be to contain Saddam and just keey a close eye on him. What right, does the United States and UK have to decide who governs what country?
And if the USA/UK are going to go into Iraq, where does it stop? If they become the final arbiter on who is allowed to have a country, who's next? Is this the wave of the future? That an american hyperpower is going to run amok across the world in order to create a new world order of its own design? Would it not be better for the US and UK to work with their friends and come to a better understanding?
Is Iraq really that dangerous? If it is, then surely there would be more obvious evidence. A smoking gun. Not inuendo and rumor but facts ala the Cuban Missile Crisis. Anything less only feeds the rumors that this excursion is really about controlling oil resources and cementing Anglo-American world hegemony.
-- The case for military action --
Not only is Saddam a brutal dictator that has killed thousands of his own people with chemical weapons over the years, he actively gives money to suicide bombers in Israel. Shortly after 9/11 the policy of the United States has been to replace regimes that support terrorism. Clearly Saddam fits the bill there.
Additionally, for 11 years Saddam has played cat and mouse with the UN. The 1991 Gulf War CEASE FIRE rested on the stipulation that he abide by the UN resolutions. He has violated this for 11 years and reports from Iraq indicate that he continues to play those games. Is the UN as useless as the league of nations?
The inspectors aren't there to search for WMD, they are there to work WITH Iraq to ensure compliance. South Africa, Ukraine, and others have gone through this process in the past without problems. The fact is, Saddam wants weapons of mass destruction. Starting with chemical and biological and ending with nuclear weapons. There is no shortage of evidence to show that. You can't take a picture of a nuclear bomb. But defectors and evidence recovered by inspectors along with intelligence has shown a trail that leads to only a single conclusion: Saddam is trying to get these weapons in violation of the cease fire terms.
And what would he do with such weapons? Based on his history, he would use them to intimidate his neighbors and dominate the middle east. He might provide them to terrorists. Oil isn't the main issue here, security is. But before you dismiss oil as being something irrelevant, without middle eastern oil, the world economy would come to a halt. How many millions would starve or freeze due to food and heat not being able to be distributed?
Security from weapons of mass destruction is the main issue. But one cannot just blindly ignore the reliance of modern societies on petroleum.
But let's talk more about what would happen if Iraq gets WMD: The United States would be the top target of any WMD equipped terrorist. That's why the US can't allow its interests to be secondary to some warm fuzzy UN wish list. A protestor in Belgium has little to fear from a nuclear armed Iraq. A citizen of New York or Washington has plenty to worry about. That's why 2/3rds of Americans support military action. They see the threat.
As for UN "support" let's remember who the UN security council is: USA, UK versus France, Russia, and China. In effect, "UN support" means Russia, France, and China. Two of those countries have significant oil deals with Saddam that create an economic reason for them to resist his removal.
As for casaulties - there were few civilian casaulties in the first gulf war (despite the propaganda some might say). There were few civilian casaulties in Afghanastan and a second gulf war would probably cause fewer deaths than the number of people who have died due to Saddam's policies in the past year.
The only reason why Saddam is even marginally cooperating now is because the US has made a credible use of force. Until then, there were no inspections at all. It is not sustainable for any country, even the US, to have to keep its military on high alert in order to get some brutal dictator to abide by UN resolutions.
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Saddam's had 11 years to cooperate. He clearly has not. He continues to play games. And can the United States, let alone the world, risk this man getting weapons of mass destruction?
If people are really concerned about casaulties, then perhaps it is better to act now than wait until he has nuclear and biological weapons that he can use against his neighbors or supply to his terrorist friends.
The allies were faced with a similar situation in 1938 with Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, they chose appeasement and a few years later World War II was the result which led to the deaths of over 50 million people. Let us not make that mistake again.
--
Regardless of what position you take, there are two ways of corresponding with those who have opposite views. You can deride their views and principles or you can try to address their concerns.
Personally, I wish we lived in a world without such troubling problems.
Reply #42 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:26 PM
Reply #43 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:39 PM
It's easier to bitch, and piss, and moan, then to do something about it.
Some people, regardless of nationality, don't see a problem unless it's right on their doorstep.
Reply #44 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:47 PM
If your house is bigger and mine, which is next to you, is smaller, has no difference when the fire will come to our neighborhood!
Let the contrapositions die and let's grow up the sense of the one Humanity!
Together we are strong, divided we fall!
Reply #45 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:59 PM
France has troops? When did they get those? More importantly, they sent them somewhere???
Sheesh, when France starts sending troops places, you know this world's gettin' wacky!
Kidding, of course - I love the French. Wee Wee!

Reply #46 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:28 PM
Hippie...name me one occasion, any one you like, where the US war effort was not assisted by Australia, if not actually preceded by Australia.
[Interesting timezone/dateline anomaly....for exactly 10 hours, Australia was at war with Germany before England....little skirmish called WW2].
And.....will someone, anyone achnowledge the fact that Australia STILL has a Navy presence in the Gulf, and has done so since the war, enforcing the embargo...AND has troops in Afghanistan, AND on their way to the Gulf, AGAIN.
We are not some insignificant entity....even IF we are half way up Bush's backside.
Think terrorism...think 9/11 but for Christ's sake think also of Bali....and what exactly was the political target/threat posed by a bunch of holidaying footballers? Australia lost entire football teams....but I guess they weren't 'grid iron' enough...

What I'd like to see is NO country possessing weapons of mass destruction....THAT doesn't make me a pacifist....but it does make me sleep better.
It doesn't matter a toss whether it's 'friendly fire' or 'the other guy', if some nutter with a trembling finger on the button screws us, we are ALL screwed.
Being outside the US, I see any and ALL WMDs and their owners/promoters/supporters as 'Dangerous Creatures'...

Reply #47 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:32 PM
Here is one of the more popular Australian bloggers:
http://timblair.blogspot.com/
Also, one of the overall most popular bloggers USS Clueless regularly sings the praises of Australians. His website is http://denbeste.nu
Reply #48 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:08 PM
http://usainreview.com/1_21_Security_Council.htm
Reply #49 Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:28 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,880437,00.html
Reply #51 Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:30 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,880437,00.html
Reply #52 Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:33 AM
Any way the article is on the Guardian website and details US Gov plans to secure oil fields in the event of a war in Iraq.
"http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,880437,00.html"
If you click the link, then paste in the rest of what's there it should get you to it.
Sorry about wasting time and space.

Reply #53 Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:50 PM
Reply #54 Friday, January 24, 2003 8:40 AM
In fact i'm not as much against USA as i pretended in my comment.
I just wanted to create reactions from you to test what you add to say

Some made iinteresting remarks that make me wrirtte another commen today.
First i'm not against military actions if they are legitimated by nato. Anyway i refuse that USA and UK decide alon for the rest of the world. What i don't like much in USA is their somehat inperialism and their pretending they are the keeper of the world. Their first intention may be right, this is a good behaviour but where USA make mistakes is the way they do it. They decide on their own without other nations agreement. They are not alone on earth so they can not decide so important things that might impact all the world future. That's this behaviour that irritates so many countries and sadly make them ennemies of USA.
I aggree usa's military and economic supremacy make them an important nation but i think Usa use of this supremacy in a bad way, taking advantage of it at the disavantage of small nations. This create tensions.
I don't despise americans at all as my first comment pretends, only some blind ones that are no critic.
Lets talk about France now. We do not have such behaviour. We sent troops in Yvory coast to protect civilians from rebels not to take part of the conflict. Our troops do not fight at all : they protect. This is a peace keaping operation. So it can't be compared to the attack of Iraq. I don't understand why you call this an illegal thing . Because it was not agreed by Nato ?
France send troops only for peace keeping operations and openly. No CIA or secret operations.
i think all diplomatic actions must be taken and nato inspectors checkings must be finished before taking any action against iraq. I don't say never. i just say wait, and be wise.
I say we should have removed Saddam Hussein at the end of Gulf war. In fact i still don't understand why it was not done at this time.
Reply #55 Friday, January 24, 2003 2:25 PM
Ironically, one of the reasons given after the fact was that the military leaders did not want to risk their troops in an urban combat situation in Bagdad. And now that's exactly what they're saying they expect to have to do if they go to war.
Reply #56 Friday, January 24, 2003 9:57 PM
Reply #57 Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:07 AM
Reply #58 Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:45 AM
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Reply #41 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:00 PM