Poll Result: Should military force be used against Iraq?
Tuesday, January 21, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
There are many principled viewpoints on both sides. And, unfortunately, there's a lot of arrogance on both sides as well.
-- The case against military action --
On the case against military action, there is the simple fact that Iraq is a sovereign country and that the world is supposed to put its faith into the United Nations to determine when military action against a country is warranted. The UN has enacted a new resolution that provides for military inspectors to help ensure that Iraq has given up its weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps more time could be given to make the dtermination of whether Iraq has really complied.
Besides, a regime change in Iraq, as terrible as Saddam is, would leave quite a vacuum which could destabilize the entire middle east. Terrorist reprisals could be made on western countries and an unknown number of innocent civilians could be harmed in the process. It seems a better way might be to contain Saddam and just keey a close eye on him. What right, does the United States and UK have to decide who governs what country?
And if the USA/UK are going to go into Iraq, where does it stop? If they become the final arbiter on who is allowed to have a country, who's next? Is this the wave of the future? That an american hyperpower is going to run amok across the world in order to create a new world order of its own design? Would it not be better for the US and UK to work with their friends and come to a better understanding?
Is Iraq really that dangerous? If it is, then surely there would be more obvious evidence. A smoking gun. Not inuendo and rumor but facts ala the Cuban Missile Crisis. Anything less only feeds the rumors that this excursion is really about controlling oil resources and cementing Anglo-American world hegemony.
-- The case for military action --
Not only is Saddam a brutal dictator that has killed thousands of his own people with chemical weapons over the years, he actively gives money to suicide bombers in Israel. Shortly after 9/11 the policy of the United States has been to replace regimes that support terrorism. Clearly Saddam fits the bill there.
Additionally, for 11 years Saddam has played cat and mouse with the UN. The 1991 Gulf War CEASE FIRE rested on the stipulation that he abide by the UN resolutions. He has violated this for 11 years and reports from Iraq indicate that he continues to play those games. Is the UN as useless as the league of nations?
The inspectors aren't there to search for WMD, they are there to work WITH Iraq to ensure compliance. South Africa, Ukraine, and others have gone through this process in the past without problems. The fact is, Saddam wants weapons of mass destruction. Starting with chemical and biological and ending with nuclear weapons. There is no shortage of evidence to show that. You can't take a picture of a nuclear bomb. But defectors and evidence recovered by inspectors along with intelligence has shown a trail that leads to only a single conclusion: Saddam is trying to get these weapons in violation of the cease fire terms.
And what would he do with such weapons? Based on his history, he would use them to intimidate his neighbors and dominate the middle east. He might provide them to terrorists. Oil isn't the main issue here, security is. But before you dismiss oil as being something irrelevant, without middle eastern oil, the world economy would come to a halt. How many millions would starve or freeze due to food and heat not being able to be distributed?
Security from weapons of mass destruction is the main issue. But one cannot just blindly ignore the reliance of modern societies on petroleum.
But let's talk more about what would happen if Iraq gets WMD: The United States would be the top target of any WMD equipped terrorist. That's why the US can't allow its interests to be secondary to some warm fuzzy UN wish list. A protestor in Belgium has little to fear from a nuclear armed Iraq. A citizen of New York or Washington has plenty to worry about. That's why 2/3rds of Americans support military action. They see the threat.
As for UN "support" let's remember who the UN security council is: USA, UK versus France, Russia, and China. In effect, "UN support" means Russia, France, and China. Two of those countries have significant oil deals with Saddam that create an economic reason for them to resist his removal.
As for casaulties - there were few civilian casaulties in the first gulf war (despite the propaganda some might say). There were few civilian casaulties in Afghanastan and a second gulf war would probably cause fewer deaths than the number of people who have died due to Saddam's policies in the past year.
The only reason why Saddam is even marginally cooperating now is because the US has made a credible use of force. Until then, there were no inspections at all. It is not sustainable for any country, even the US, to have to keep its military on high alert in order to get some brutal dictator to abide by UN resolutions.
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Saddam's had 11 years to cooperate. He clearly has not. He continues to play games. And can the United States, let alone the world, risk this man getting weapons of mass destruction?
If people are really concerned about casaulties, then perhaps it is better to act now than wait until he has nuclear and biological weapons that he can use against his neighbors or supply to his terrorist friends.
The allies were faced with a similar situation in 1938 with Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, they chose appeasement and a few years later World War II was the result which led to the deaths of over 50 million people. Let us not make that mistake again.
--
Regardless of what position you take, there are two ways of corresponding with those who have opposite views. You can deride their views and principles or you can try to address their concerns.
Personally, I wish we lived in a world without such troubling problems.
Reply #22 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:15 AM
It is good to see people generally being able to discuss these issues without dismissing those with opposing points of view with some one line patronizing remark (Well other than Craeonics anyway ).
If you want to change someone's mind -- to bring them to your point of view (as opposed to just ranting hysterically) the key is to look at their point of view.
If you're anti-war, for instance, you can think to yourself very very much that it's really just a big scam to get oil or that the US "made these guys" or whatever but those with opposing points of view don't buy that. Hence such assertions are meaningless.
Similarly, if you are in favor of action, you have to recognize that many who oppose you really do think that it's about oil or that there is skepticism that Saddam is really a big threat.
That's why you won't see too many opinions being changed. Neither side really tries to address the issues the other side brings up. They are, in essence, talking right past one another.
Reply #23 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:14 AM
The purpose of the UN inspectors should not be to hunt down WMD. Their job is to verify the disarming of Iraq. The Iraqis should be laying the missiles, shells, enriched uranium at the feet of the weapons inspectors, and saying "here it is, go ahead and destroy it."
Until such time as the UN is able to certify that all prohibited weapons have been removed from Iraq, they have not lived up to their end of the cease fire agreement that ended the Gulf War. This could and should be a trigger to allow for the resumption of hostilities.
Point 2.
IT IS ABOUT OIL, We did create / condone this guy. I see these sides of the argument as being true, and will not dispute them. The US created a monster. But just like Dr. Frankenstein it is time that we see the horror of what we unleashed on the world, and correct our mistake.
Point 3.
I notice that no one has mentioned Israel in the discussion. Israel is the major super power in the region. Iraq is the only country that rivels/ threatens Israeli superiority. The US/UK means to protect Israel's sovernignty by ensuring the no country in the region has the ability to destroy the state of Israel. Why does the US/UK mean to protect Israel? Don't know.
Reply #24 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:25 AM
Point 3: Israel is not capable of dealing with Saddam. It does not have the land army capability. I don't see how any of this has anything to do with Israel.
Reply #25 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:05 PM
What’s Israel have to do with this? They’re better equipped, better trained, and would fight down to the last man, woman, and child. Sure, we'd probably go in to help them 'if' the need arose, but we'd do it for everyone, even when it’s not our business

Reply #26 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:07 PM
Israel has 400+ nuclear weapons, 50% of which are 'Green Ready' which means they already have a target. Saddam has (at best) short range chemical weapons (range:50 miles). Out of these two countries which one is the most threatening?!? The politicans tell us Saddam (because he has something they want). Israel (this was just one CNN) has killed on average 3 palestine children every mounth since '85. But they are called our allies! It's amazing the effect/desire/need for cheap oil has on us

Reply #27 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:08 PM
oh wellReply #28 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:12 PM
Don’t start that crap, how many Israeli children have died at the hands of Islamic extremists? It's a bad situation for everyone in there, fingers should be pointed to all groups for the roles theyve played in worsening the situation.
Reply #29 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:17 PM
Reply #30 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:41 PM
Reply #31 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:49 PM
Point 3.
Israel is definately a more powerful, well armed and trained military then any other country in the region, that was my original statement. Iraq, and the rest of the Arab nations, with few exceptions, don't recognize Israel's right to exist, and if they had the ability they would wipe it off the face of the earth. The US/UK are ensuring that no one in the region has the capability to do that. And again the question, why does the US/UK feel the need to ensure that Israel is the most powerful country in the region?

Reply #32 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:26 PM
You all eat words spread by CNN and your pityfull Bush.
USA want war for one reason only : they want to take Iraq's oil.
USA never entered a war when they found no interest in it. USA are a selfish nation who do not care about other people interest or sake, only theirs.
They entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan.
They entered vietnam to prevent the spreading of the communist menace not only in Asia but moreover in their own country.
They entered Golf war to prevent iraq from taking control of oil in the gulf region.
And this is the same reason that push them today.
USA is creating 40% of all the world pollution
USA did not sign the last agreement on pollution reduction.
USa is a
Reply #33 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:32 PM
You all eat words spread by CNN and your pityfull Bush.
USA want war for one reason only : they want to take Iraq's oil.
USA never entered a war when they found no interest in it. USA are a selfish nation who do not care about other people interest or sake, only theirs.
They entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan.
They entered vietnam to prevent the spreading of the communist menace not only in Asia but moreover in their own country.
They entered Golf war to prevent iraq from taking control of oil in the gulf region.
And this is the same reason that push them today.
USA is creating 40% of all the world pollution
USA did not sign the last agreement on pollution reduction.
USA is a selfish country that do not car about the rest of the world.
About Saddam Hussein, he's a evil guy that commited crimes to acces and stay at the head of his country (including killin peple of his own family). He's a dictator. The argument consisting of : the war is made to remove Sadam Hussein. Then why did USA not do that at the end of the Gulf war ?
USA have allways maintained Dictators in many nation, providing them weapons and even helped them to access power for one reason : control and keep the countries in despair to prevent them to be competitors.
Reply #34 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:37 PM
Reply #35 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:54 PM
The US gives more money, more aid, and more military support than another country in the world.
>>Poor american ignorants... >You all eat words spread by CNN and your pityfull Bush.>USA want war for one reason only : they want to take Iraq's oil.>USA never entered a war when they found no interest in it. USA are a selfish nation who do not care about other people interest or sake, only theirs.>They entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan.>They entered vietnam to prevent the spreading of the communist menace not only in Asia but moreover in their own country.>They entered Golf war to prevent iraq from taking control of oil in the gulf region.>And this is the same reason that push them today.>USA is creating 40% of all the world pollution>USA did not sign the last agreement on pollution reduction.>USA is a selfish country that do not car about the rest of the world.<<
Im going to avoid using profanity, but I'd really like to cause you pain for disrespecting those Americans who have givin their lives, their money and their support for the world community. You’re the only selfish person present.
Reply #36 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:59 PM
PogS 3K...i dont know what to say to you.
The US gives more money, more aid, and more military support than another country in the world.
"Ooor american ignorants... "
don’t be insulting
"You all eat words spread by CNN and your pityfull Bush."
I suppose that’s why bush has a 60% approval rating, and not 100%, and theres Americans demonstrating for AND against war.
"USA want war for one reason only : they want to take Iraq's oil."
We could’ve taking in the gulf war, we didn’t. Were protecting oil, because we need it yes, trying to control it no, were fighting to keep others from doing that
"USA never entered a war when they found no interest in it. USA are a selfish nation who do not care about other people interest or sake, only theirs."
I addressed this
"They entered WW2 only when attacked by Japan."
Where do you think Britain got its materials, ships, and a great deal of supplies prior to out military entrance? In any case, by your reasoning we would’ve only gone after Japan, which is obviously incorrect. We went in and gave Full support, turning the tide of war at the cost of countless American lives. Don’t be so un-grateful
"They entered vietnam to prevent the spreading of the communist menace not only in Asia but moreover in their own country."
You call it a menace and at the same time say theres something wrong with it, make up your mind. I think Vietnam was a mistake, I also believe that Americans fought for what they believe was the right thing...don’t know what to say
"They entered Golf war to prevent iraq from taking control of oil in the gulf region."
As I said, we could’ve kept it the first time and didn’t, we seek to protect, not control
"And this is the same reason that push them today."
Ah, that makes real sense
"USA is creating 40% of all the world pollution"
Its also has a larger population than another fully stabilized industrial nation. I don’t justify the pollution, but don’t leave out facts
"USA did not sign the last agreement on pollution reduction."
Because it would cost us the most, and we do participate in other ways. There isn’t one right way. Once again, Imp not defending pollution, but nothing is cut and dry
"USA is a selfish country that do not car about the rest of the world.<<"
Reply #37 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:05 PM
Reply #38 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:21 PM
Reply #39 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:49 PM
We (the US) supported Iraq against Iran in the 1970s in order to keep the oil flowing out to the world economies, including our own. We went to war against Iraq in 1990 because they invaded Kuwait without provocation and threatened the balance of power in the region, thus threatening the continued flow of oil.
Heaven forbid that we try to protect the flow of oil out of the Middle East.
After all, it's not that important that the United States economy keeps going - we're just a bunch of polluters anyway. The world'd be better off without us. Besides, no other country imports any oil out of the Middle East.
It's not as if the collapse of the US economy would affect the amount of US imports from other countries. Heck, who cares if some poor schmoe in Spain or Singapore loses his job because the US stops importing the product he used to make. That's just tough for him and his family.
And it's not as if foreign banks have millions of dollars invested in the U.S. economy. The world can let the US hang on its own, because the collapse of American companies won't affect anyone else's bank account.
Yeah, sure. Who cares if those lousy, stinkin' Americans get any oil"
This moment of sarcasm brought to you by the American Society to See The Bigger Picture.
Reply #40 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 2:52 PM
The problem with people like PogS 3K is that their ranting is empty rhetoric. It is based purely on emotion rather than logic or reason. It's unpersuassive. And it lacks any real substance since I doubt PogS 3K is demanding his country enact trade sanctions or in fact do anything materially to dissuade the United States and UK from their action.
It also represents the moral surrender in my view. There ARE principled reasons to be against military action. But closing ones eyes and trivializing the reasons of your opponents isn't one of them.
Left alone, Iraq would already have nuclear weapons. Only the threat of military force got the inspectors back into Iraq. And odds are, if the US and UK don't act, things will just return to where they were before until the day comes when Iraq has nuclear and biological weapons.
And then the world community will be faced between the choice of dealing with a nuclear armed Iraq holding the region hostage (ala North Korea) and potentially facing millions of casualties in a much bloodier war, or having to live with a very scary new world order where every monster like Saddam can acquire nuclear weapons and deal with localized nuclear wars.
Of course, PogS 3K, as a resident of France has little to fear. It's not like France would be involved in cleaning up some future mess. That is precisely why the United States wants to deal with this now. Because its government and its citizens know that should things get out of hand in the middle east some time in the future, it'll be thrown into the US's lap to clean up while people like PogS 3K over in France say "Why didn't you ignorant Americans clean up Iraq when you had the chance?"
He's right, the United States tried to stay out of World War II. It didn't want to get involved. But in the end, the US had to get involved and clean up the mess. Not that France had to deal much with that either. It surrendered in less than 40 days of "fighting". Those who favor military action want to avoid a repeat of that scenario.
It is up to those who oppose military action to come up with a reasonable alternative. Some OTHER solution that will have the same effect. Demonizing Bush or the people of the United States is not going to be very effective.
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Reply #21 Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:17 AM