Should Windows 98/ME be supported?
Wednesday, August 7, 2002 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
It's frustrating. I go over to download.com and see user reviews on WindowBlinds:http://download.com.com/3000-2326-10131236.html?tag=sptlt
And reading it, you'd think that WindowBlinds was junk. But we know it's not. We know it works really really well, especially on Windows 2000 and XP.
The problem is that on Windows 98 and ME, things get dodgy. Those versions of Windows have a limited number of GDI resources. So sometimes desktop enhancements (not just WindowBlinds) work perfectly and sometimes tweaking needs to be done to them.
According to the stats on WinCustomize, Only 19% of the visitors here even use Windows 98/ME. A year ago it was 45%.
This raises the question - how long should these cutomization unfriendly versions of Windows be supported? We're finding it to be a huge PR problem. People download customization software on their Windows 98 box, some percentage of them has problems due to the crummy neature of Windows 98/ME, and then when they eventually upgrade to a decent version of Windows they only remember that the software in question gave them problems and hence we end up with "I tried WindowBlinds and it was unstable" spread like gospel.
http://download.com.com/3000-2326-10131236.html?tag=sptlt
As I write this, fewer than 7 out of 10 people actually had a positive experience with it. Obviously there are some other issues involved such as registered users don't download the shareware so over time, the only users left downloading the shareware are people who have (for whatever reason) chosen not to register. But it's hard to help wondering that Windows 98Frogboy is also a major factor.
With only 1 out of 5 people on this site running Win98Frogboy in a world where 70% of desktops are running Win98/ME, it really demonstrates that those who are into customization or have a positive experience in customizing their comptuers are running Windows 2000 or Windows XP.
Therefore, what do you think? Should support for Windows 98Frogboy users be phased out and if so when?
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Chef Garry
Reply #2 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 8:12 PM
Reply #2 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 8:12 PM
What does work well on Win 98? Best thing I ever did was to upgrade to XP. That said, WB worked as well on 98 as anything did.
Tarkus
Reply #5 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:01 PM
Reply #5 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:01 PM
Tarkus thinks the colored sentences are kind of funny. 
That's a really tough question, Frogboy. I was an early adopter of both W2K and WXP, so I'm biased towards that group. You're going to piss off a lot of people either way. Either they'll be pissed at your "buggy" software, or they'll be pissed that you're excluding them. Again, very tough choice.
That's a really tough question, Frogboy. I was an early adopter of both W2K and WXP, so I'm biased towards that group. You're going to piss off a lot of people either way. Either they'll be pissed at your "buggy" software, or they'll be pissed that you're excluding them. Again, very tough choice.
Entilza
Reply #6 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:02 PM
Reply #6 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:02 PM
I use win 98se and i am not planning on using XP until my next pc.. in about a year. 
Mexikin
Reply #7 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:52 PM
Reply #7 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 9:52 PM
I think thats about right, only people who can afford to upgrade should be able to use windowblinds... 
bakerstreet
Reply #8 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:01 PM
Reply #8 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:01 PM
my thoughts,
a) many, many people don't like product activation. Especially l33t, make-my-desktop-look-like-the-Matrix types. A new copy of Windows for every pc is often not an option, so its possible *some* PCs will be running 98se in a household. So it is either 2000 (which is expensive) or stick with 98, which seems to be the norm.
b)Aren't places still selling 98? I would have *sworn* that I saw it on a shelf less than a month ago at a couple of different places (staples?). Regardless, it is still being passed around a *great* deal on build-your-own systems. Those computer-show dudes with the 98se licences still sell a lot. At least they were at the last show.
c)And this one is fanciful, but what about this Chinese win98 clone that is being talked of? Is it possible that there might be a free, generic 98 some day? I doubt it, but ya never know.
I guess I would halt new development on 98se, and keep a code-frozen 98bakerstreet version of the apps for the duration. Until there are no hardware drivers being made for it, people will go on using it, since it is the most economical option.
I'm thinking most of the swooby new shtuff you wanna do is impossible/inconvienent on 98 or ME anyway...
a) many, many people don't like product activation. Especially l33t, make-my-desktop-look-like-the-Matrix types. A new copy of Windows for every pc is often not an option, so its possible *some* PCs will be running 98se in a household. So it is either 2000 (which is expensive) or stick with 98, which seems to be the norm.
b)Aren't places still selling 98? I would have *sworn* that I saw it on a shelf less than a month ago at a couple of different places (staples?). Regardless, it is still being passed around a *great* deal on build-your-own systems. Those computer-show dudes with the 98se licences still sell a lot. At least they were at the last show.
c)And this one is fanciful, but what about this Chinese win98 clone that is being talked of? Is it possible that there might be a free, generic 98 some day? I doubt it, but ya never know.
I guess I would halt new development on 98se, and keep a code-frozen 98bakerstreet version of the apps for the duration. Until there are no hardware drivers being made for it, people will go on using it, since it is the most economical option.
I'm thinking most of the swooby new shtuff you wanna do is impossible/inconvienent on 98 or ME anyway...
Aaron W.
Reply #9 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:03 PM
Reply #9 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:03 PM
Windows 98, for many people, provides far superior performance than XP would (we've all read/heard the XP horror stories...) so I can understand why people wouldn't upgrade. There's the money issue. However, I don't see why you can't just give some warnings like "win2k+ recommended" etc... That'd probably stop the comments about it running funny on 98 as they'd know it wasn't made for it.
Eventually developers are going to have to stop supporting old versions of windows altogether, but I think it's a little early to stop supporting win98 as many still use it faithfully.
PS: ME sucks, so it's never too soon to stop supporting it as far as I'm concerned
Eventually developers are going to have to stop supporting old versions of windows altogether, but I think it's a little early to stop supporting win98 as many still use it faithfully.
PS: ME sucks, so it's never too soon to stop supporting it as far as I'm concerned
bakerstreet
Reply #10 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:03 PM
Reply #10 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:03 PM
p.s. I use 2000, and have no plans of upgrading til I can't use the average piece of software/hardware, or the planets line up and Linux runs photoshop flawlessly and has decent wacom drivers.
ttoonnyy
Reply #11 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:21 PM
Reply #11 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:21 PM
>
Why fix something if it is not broken? When you finally save enough money to get WXP, you find other problems involving the puchase of new printers, scanners, software, etc. Why is W98 enhancement such a bad alternative option?
THIS REALLY SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!
P.S. Windowblinds works fine on W98 if you know what you are doing. You don't have to be a rocket scientist.
Why fix something if it is not broken? When you finally save enough money to get WXP, you find other problems involving the puchase of new printers, scanners, software, etc. Why is W98 enhancement such a bad alternative option?THIS REALLY SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!
P.S. Windowblinds works fine on W98 if you know what you are doing. You don't have to be a rocket scientist.
Frogboy
Reply #12 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:36 PM
Reply #12 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 10:36 PM
We're not saying we're going to discontinue it right now, we're asking when people think we should.
It's a real support and PR problem having people who download this stuff on their Win98 mchien where there system tray is so stuffed with things that it uses more space than their taskbar who then immediately rip on our software because it's low on system resources.
It's a real support and PR problem having people who download this stuff on their Win98 mchien where there system tray is so stuffed with things that it uses more space than their taskbar who then immediately rip on our software because it's low on system resources.
JeremyG
Reply #13 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 11:40 PM
Reply #13 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 11:40 PM
I guess the question is if Stardock could take the 10%-20% loss of customers. (or maybe they'd just upgrade for stardock!)
But i say if it helps reduce development time, to allow more advanced and stable features on Windows2k/XP then do it for the 80% of customers, especially since it's likely that all NEW stardock customers will be running one of those 2.
But i say if it helps reduce development time, to allow more advanced and stable features on Windows2k/XP then do it for the 80% of customers, especially since it's likely that all NEW stardock customers will be running one of those 2.
SkinneRyan
Reply #14 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:42 AM
Reply #14 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:42 AM
Drop support for 98\ME right now.
98\ME are unstable enough to crash even if you put them in a rubber room with cushions that you stole from your sofe tied around them.
Dropping support for win 98\ME would also help to free up a bit of bandwith on this site.
98\ME are unstable enough to crash even if you put them in a rubber room with cushions that you stole from your sofe tied around them.
Dropping support for win 98\ME would also help to free up a bit of bandwith on this site.
kith
Reply #15 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:44 AM
Reply #15 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:44 AM
I too am biased, koop talked me into buying a new box couple of months ago. I have been amazed at how well XP performs as an OS when compared to 98SE. Not just with Stardock software, but overall. That being said.
If the question is "when"...
When you hold back with features to be compatible with 98 / ME
When you get to a "p" beta trying to be compatible with 98 / ME
When the number of unique switches in the .ini equals the number of registered users!
When the number of HELP messages in the NG, WC msg board, c|net, IRC is greater than the number of What are YOU listening to? mesages.
Basically what I am telling you is that I renew my subscription to OD every year because the software gets better every year. As long as "they" the minority are not holding back the 2000/XP majority then fine. But I have the feeling that it is only goinng to get worse in trying to support 98 / ME. Reason being all those computers are getting older and more fickle everyday.
If the question is "when"...
When you hold back with features to be compatible with 98 / ME
When you get to a "p" beta trying to be compatible with 98 / ME
When the number of unique switches in the .ini equals the number of registered users!
When the number of HELP messages in the NG, WC msg board, c|net, IRC is greater than the number of What are YOU listening to? mesages.
Basically what I am telling you is that I renew my subscription to OD every year because the software gets better every year. As long as "they" the minority are not holding back the 2000/XP majority then fine. But I have the feeling that it is only goinng to get worse in trying to support 98 / ME. Reason being all those computers are getting older and more fickle everyday.
Einstein
Reply #16 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:53 AM
Reply #16 Thursday, August 8, 2002 12:53 AM
I have winME at home and I honestly don't run Stardock apps that often. I used to, but not lately. I'm not made of money, so I will have to stick with my PII 400MHz machine for a few years yet. Sucks to be me.
However, at work I have a nice Win2K, P4 1.8GHz box. It runs all stardock apps great! I can see exactly what Frogboy is getting at.
So as far as I'm concerned, Win98 and ME are unskinnable OS's. I'll stop even trying at home.
However, at work I have a nice Win2K, P4 1.8GHz box. It runs all stardock apps great! I can see exactly what Frogboy is getting at.
So as far as I'm concerned, Win98 and ME are unskinnable OS's. I'll stop even trying at home.
wulfn1
Reply #17 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:32 AM
Reply #17 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:32 AM
Hmm..
I see. So you're saying those of us who are limited in both "resources" and $Resources$ are to be excluded from further support just in this site? or from stardock entirely? I would love a clear explanation. I am just slightly infuriated by the implication that the system I use is so tragically passe that it must be dumped post haste and I must run out immediately and purchase a product I have no faith in whatsoever. I am aware of the faults of the system I am running. I am also aware that it's more important to my family that they have food, roof, clothing, and stability than to have the very latest in gadgetry. I refuse to bow to my children's piteous whining about not having the latest in designer labels , why should I be forced to bow to yours ? I recieved the object desktop program as an aniversary gift. Someone thought enough of the program and the idea behind it, (of forcing windows to accept a different look , in effect to allow windows to look more like mac or even xp)to spend good money on it. Now you tell me I may be limited to the amount of use I will have of the program to suit your whim? All I can say is "must be nice to have lots of money and be spoiled rotten. "
This "citizen" will continue to use this site despite the biased and predjudiced views toward those of us still using 98 ME. I just hope someone wakes up, pulls his/her head out of the sand and reallizes not everyone who skins was born with silver spoons or work at fancy jobs.
Oh and further, I have had less than ten skins give me trouble using winME. The few skins that don't work well were graphicly detailed and the many layers were the difficulty. I have tried roughly 40% of the skins at wincustomize. 90% of those skins work splendidly.
>
I see. So you're saying those of us who are limited in both "resources" and $Resources$ are to be excluded from further support just in this site? or from stardock entirely? I would love a clear explanation. I am just slightly infuriated by the implication that the system I use is so tragically passe that it must be dumped post haste and I must run out immediately and purchase a product I have no faith in whatsoever. I am aware of the faults of the system I am running. I am also aware that it's more important to my family that they have food, roof, clothing, and stability than to have the very latest in gadgetry. I refuse to bow to my children's piteous whining about not having the latest in designer labels , why should I be forced to bow to yours ? I recieved the object desktop program as an aniversary gift. Someone thought enough of the program and the idea behind it, (of forcing windows to accept a different look , in effect to allow windows to look more like mac or even xp)to spend good money on it. Now you tell me I may be limited to the amount of use I will have of the program to suit your whim? All I can say is "must be nice to have lots of money and be spoiled rotten. "
This "citizen" will continue to use this site despite the biased and predjudiced views toward those of us still using 98 ME. I just hope someone wakes up, pulls his/her head out of the sand and reallizes not everyone who skins was born with silver spoons or work at fancy jobs.
Oh and further, I have had less than ten skins give me trouble using winME. The few skins that don't work well were graphicly detailed and the many layers were the difficulty. I have tried roughly 40% of the skins at wincustomize. 90% of those skins work splendidly.
>
bakerstreet
Reply #18 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:40 AM
Reply #18 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:40 AM
re Mr. Einstein:
!!???!?!
Gah, jeez, I don't wanna be a troll but...
"Win98 and ME are unskinnable OS's"...??
urm... wtf have I been doing for 4 years? I had a CELERON 400 for three years, running a multitude of skinnable apps comfortably, and it is running them in the living room now... I also have a p90 laptop with 48 megs of ram running a sweet LS theme over 98se in my bedroom, and it functions flawlessly as a nice LAN stereo and Ebook reader. Windowblinds is a subset of skinning, not the otherway around. (though, it ran fine on my c400 too, a year or so ago.) Skinning is older than my experience with it, and I haven't touched XP yet.
I got the same feeling when I read the statement in an interview recently that said "Transparency just wasn't possible on win98". Of course, he meant varying levels of Alpha transparency but to the unaware that would mean that pre-win2000 everything was square...
Sorry, Mr. Einstein, just had to vent. my apologies. No hard feelings, I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it sounded, and neither did I.
!!???!?!
Gah, jeez, I don't wanna be a troll but...
"Win98 and ME are unskinnable OS's"...??
urm... wtf have I been doing for 4 years? I had a CELERON 400 for three years, running a multitude of skinnable apps comfortably, and it is running them in the living room now... I also have a p90 laptop with 48 megs of ram running a sweet LS theme over 98se in my bedroom, and it functions flawlessly as a nice LAN stereo and Ebook reader. Windowblinds is a subset of skinning, not the otherway around. (though, it ran fine on my c400 too, a year or so ago.) Skinning is older than my experience with it, and I haven't touched XP yet.
I got the same feeling when I read the statement in an interview recently that said "Transparency just wasn't possible on win98". Of course, he meant varying levels of Alpha transparency but to the unaware that would mean that pre-win2000 everything was square...
Sorry, Mr. Einstein, just had to vent. my apologies. No hard feelings, I'm sure you didn't mean it the way it sounded, and neither did I.
bakerstreet
Reply #19 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:46 AM
Reply #19 Thursday, August 8, 2002 1:46 AM
wulfn1: They don't mean it that way. Fact is MICROSOFT is not gonna support 98 anymore, either, they've said so. Sounds like no big deal til you think about DirectX and such. Facts are it is 5 year old OS. The money thing is an issue to people like us, who use our hardware as hardware, but the average person never sees an OS in the box. They buy it on the pre-built they replace every 3 or 4 years when their newest games won't play. I feel for ya, but time marches on. I don't expect people to abondon 98 for some time, though. Not with, as Frogboy said, 70% of the computers running it.
wulfn1
Reply #20 Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:03 AM
Reply #20 Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:03 AM
Bakerstreet,
I understand what you're saying. I have recieved the "we're sorry but we're no longer supporting winME" message from the microsoft server.(though I must add they've updated two more holes in the system since that notice.. go figure).
I don't understand why no one has suggested there be a seperate program for the newer technology. there is always room for improvement to an old program. And with the complexity of programming it is possible to find new and innovative ways to recycle old ideas. Why toss the baby out with the wash water? dry the baby, place the baby in a new bath if needed and watch the baby thrive. Does anyone out there have any idea how many of us will NEVER have a "new" state of the art up to date pc?(or mac for that matter) of today's population there is a growing number of NEW users who will have older pc's and older Os's. These people, many kids in poorer areas, are the future of programming. Why not give them the chance to create something wonderful with what they have instead of telling them Gee sorry kid, you'll just have to work a second job at mcdonalds after school so you can have what's needed to compete in OUR little world.
Heck go ahead stop supporting us, we're already as good as locked out of several of the skin categories here on wincustomize. but give us the chance to continue working with what little we have without totally excluding us.
I understand what you're saying. I have recieved the "we're sorry but we're no longer supporting winME" message from the microsoft server.(though I must add they've updated two more holes in the system since that notice.. go figure).
I don't understand why no one has suggested there be a seperate program for the newer technology. there is always room for improvement to an old program. And with the complexity of programming it is possible to find new and innovative ways to recycle old ideas. Why toss the baby out with the wash water? dry the baby, place the baby in a new bath if needed and watch the baby thrive. Does anyone out there have any idea how many of us will NEVER have a "new" state of the art up to date pc?(or mac for that matter) of today's population there is a growing number of NEW users who will have older pc's and older Os's. These people, many kids in poorer areas, are the future of programming. Why not give them the chance to create something wonderful with what they have instead of telling them Gee sorry kid, you'll just have to work a second job at mcdonalds after school so you can have what's needed to compete in OUR little world.
Heck go ahead stop supporting us, we're already as good as locked out of several of the skin categories here on wincustomize. but give us the chance to continue working with what little we have without totally excluding us.
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Reply #1 Wednesday, August 7, 2002 7:55 PM
As a suggestion for phasing out support perhaps you can start with XP optimized versions of some items, concurrent with Win98Woofer versions, and then by say January 2004 (less than 18 months from now) you'll only offer the XP optimized versions, and the Win98/ME versions will be set as final.
I would think within the next 18 months most people will have upgraded to XP anyways. Corporations will do the upgrade after the first Service Pack most likely. Microsoft will, as they've already done for Windows 95, stop supporting 98Woofer around then, forcing more people to make the switch.