No, you have the opportunity to download them...and run them on your very own machine...at your resolution and refresh rate, etc.

Master skins are a 'little' more problematic as you actually need to purchase before a qualified opinion can be made.

If the whole basis of this thread is whether a truly viable opinion can be made on 'just' a screenshot or not...well, it's not all that unlike looking at a photo of a car and remarking "that'd be a bitch to drive".

OK, so if it had no seatsit'd be warranted criticism... but if the doors aren't open how would you know it had seats...or not?

Ass- U- Me? ...

I can't speak for anyone else, but when doing this for a living, one has to keep in mind braod appeal, I try to do one way out skin [Outer limits] and a couple of more mainstream ones, Naked, VXP then I'll do another far more creative one..VOX and two more broad appealing ones, Havana, Harmony... In short I try to balance what I do creatively with what is going to put food on my table, I'll be honest.. the plain jane ones.. SELL. Knowing that, do I do all plain jane? Hell no, look at my gallery. But I have to do enough to feed the family. It's just how it is.

Another massive issue is Vista\ 7, it is just is not possible to be as creative as we used to be with WB. I hope Neil can workaround some of that but as it stands, from a popularity standpoint and an OS recstrictions perspective , I gotta tell ya, it aint looking promising.. look like we will never get back to the good old days of XP going forward. SKinners can still be creative but only to the point of sacrificing usabilty.

I liked your last post, its good to see honesty in opinion.

Wow.. 1. I was talking about pay skins, not general gallery skins...thought that was obvious

Can one fully evaluate a skin fro a screenshot.. NO, of course not

Can one form enough of an opinion on one from a screenshot to tell whether they like it or whether it is worth paying for.. YES

and thats all I am saying with respect to that part or the OP.

Poll... anyone?

I don't know how much this would help a skinner who has been around here for a while. I know that since I've been here, I have developed a network of fellow skinners that I can contact when I have any skinning issues. They offer advice, and opinions on the skins I make...and I do the same in return. I am not afraid of being told that what I am making is crap, and I am not afraid to tell them what they are making is crap either. Most skinners have (or should have) a network of some kind for this.

Having said that, I still think an advanced critique section is a pretty good idea....for new skinners. This would allow them to get help and advise from people who know what they are doing. New skinners don't have the network that most of us do. They need help and usually don't know where to get it, or are intimidated about asking a master or journeyman just because they are so far advanced compared to them...or don't want to make a forum thread about their work because they dont want to get flamed. I'm not saying that they would get flamed here, but I guarentee that some feel this way....I did when I first started skinning.

The Advanced Critique section could be available to anyone to upload in, but only available to, say, Master Apprerentice and above to view and comment on. The gallery could be 'hidden' from the general public. Skins would remain in that gallery for 30 days, unless it was updated with fixes before then. The submitter could only see his/her skin and the comments on it, unless the submitter was Master apprentice or above.

What can it hurt to try this? It just needs a gallery and a 'few' codes to limit access, right? Try it out for a while, see if it works.

Not quite true. Purchasing a skin doesn't enable you to make a qualified opinion, only experience and knowledge can do that.

The true art of commenting on skins was lost a long time ago. I used to critique skins quite often but they just got buried under reams of 'great' and 'super'. Now I rarely comment at all.

It would be nice to have a comment section available to only those of a senior rank. But then promotions aren't what they used to be either.

Back in 'the good old days', I was in the top ten list of skinners for weeks before I got past citizen. People had to work damn hard to get promoted and you knew a Journeyman was the very best, someone everyone could look up to. I knew if a senior skinner gave me some advice it was something I should listen to.

A Master was a skinner who was held in the highest regard be everyone, people like Treetog, people who were legends of skinning. Now it's about who can make a profit and a lot of Masters do not deserve the title.

I don't have control over how the site is run, I never have. But I do have my own opinions. What I see of this site now just breaks my heart.

We all volunteer to forego the right to say anything we want when we agree with the TOS.  We do this for the sake of a more friendly community where your right to say anything you want is made secondary to the needs of reasonably civilized forum.  So there are site imposed limits to free speech which you have the option to accept and be a member or not accept and depart.  I personally feel that the site has become somewhat over bearing with political correctness but it as a commercial enterprise, Stardock has every right to do what they think works best to achieve their goals.

As for commenting without downloading first, I think this is fine depending on what you  are commenting about, i.e., one does not need to download a pink skin to know that one does not like a pink colored skin.  or an aero type skin, or a minimalist skin,  or that it looks like 10 other skins, whatever).  It is another conversation entirely as whether ot not is t is good form to comment that "this skin sucks" because it is pink and minimalist or whatever.  My point being that there are a lot of things that make people like or dislike a particular skin that can easily be seen from a screenshot.  I do not personally feel the need to make negative comments about such things, but firmly believe that others certainly have the right to do so as long as it does not take the form of harrassment.  To limit comments to only those that have purchased the skin seems to me to remove criticism or positive comment based on the above type of reasons for "liking" a skin, which is what most people are doing, not commenting on a detailed analysis of the skins functionability.  All should be taken with a grain of salt regardless.

From the technical functioning aspect of a skin, it is not unreasonable to think that a master skin will function properly.  Obviously one can not comment on how a skin functions without trying it, but I would venture to say that the vast majority purchase  a MASTER skin because they like the look of it in the screenshot with the assumption that it works as expected, but I must admit that I do agree with Fuzzy about the dilution of master status.

The most important thing in every situation is the respect for the people and for their works

Constructive comments or criticism are very useful for the skinner, because the person try the skin and then make his observation and want help the skinner

Then there is people that see the screenshot and rightly say "I don't like" or "It's not my cup of tea" because simply they don't like the colors or the design of the skin...I personally prefer avoid such comments because it's a opinion subjective but this is the game

Attention Whore-  Label given to any person who craves attention to such an extent that they will do anything to receive it. The type of attention (negative or positive) does not matter.

an attention whore tries to draw attention to themself without making it seem like she is.

I was lucky enough to lose my workstation HDD last week so I was too busy to be involved in the most recent rift.

My thoughts.....

Opinions - The reality is an opinion is posted only to make the skinner feel good or feel bad...it serves no other purpose. You are entitled to your opinion but as Ken pointed out the TOS limits how acerbic it's allowed to be. "Shitty Icons" or the like is completely unacceptable. That's it on opinions.......

Criticism - This is where a poster can help the skinner. It still needs to remain within the bounds of "respectfully given" to truly help. Some critics will be ABLE to be more constructive due to experience.

I believe all skinners benefit from criticism. Some become very defensive when criticized.......others seem more able to respond positively. Either way they still benefit.

Some very intelligent and reasonable posts, thank you.

damn, i love coffee SOOOOO much

Comments, reviews, critiques..whatever you want to call them, I believe are here to stay.

Even sites like Best Buy and Walmart have 'review' sections. My wife won't purchase anything without checking customer reviews. She'll read through them and make up her own mind.

There have been instances where the overall reviews were good and then along come two or five that bash the product, often contradicting specific comments to the letter. And even on these sites, you do not have to purchase the product to post a review.

I don't see Sony jumping in when a bad review comes down and saying it's 'unfair'. Perhaps because they are so big, I don't know.

When money is involved, people are going to voice their opinions. They are going to be more apt to voice their negative opinions when it comes to making a purchase, though I am still amazed that they will bash something they got for free, whatever it is. (Not necassarily skins)

I wonder if any Master could hold up to an in depth review of their skin. Something on the level of Engadget and the way they will deconstruct a cell phone and list it's pro's and cons. On that note, my suggestions would be that Masters and/or Journeymen (No Mods or Admin) fullfill part of their obligation to contribute more to the community and take turns doing in depth reviews of the Master skins. They could also feature a skin by someone who is not a Master but may well be on their way. The Master skin would have to be made available to the reviewer free of charge. (If SOny or Samsung can fork over a free phone for review, I think it could be done with a skin)

Perhaps have anyone who is willing to take on this task submit an audition review for the admins and mods to look over and decide who may be best suited for such a task. The review should reflect a persons ability to be knowledgable, objective, articulate (leaves me out) , and informative. The review would cover usability, craftsmanship, artistic presence, etc. Not much different than reviewing the work of an architect as you are looking at multiple points of interest and importance.

Great idea, Po!

I remember years ago, when i opened Maxstyles.com, I really had very little traffic, before SD was even selling skins, I decided to post on Neowin.net that a 'pay' theme was available on my site. I wish I had screenshotted the responses because I was absolutely freakin hammered.

I think, for two reasons, 1. because I was selling something that had up until then been given for free and 2. because there were people that who in other scenarios might have bought something online but were disgusted that I was asking money for what they deemed sub-standard quality work.

Now that pay skins have become more widely accepted many people will not complain when it comes to the fact that it is a pay skin as it has become more the norm than the exception, they will most definately complain if what is put up for sale does not meet what they may consider substandard.

Now I happen to quite like these icons, but, its quite obvious that some folks took great exception to them.

https://www.wincustomize.com/skins.aspx?skinid=1815&libid=2

There are numerous similar posts in other Master skin threads, Stardock submitted and not.

good post indeed Po, I personally think thats a good idea.

posted blinds are open to comment. can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. While I find comments like "shitty icons" or "this blind sucks" annoying, I find the responses to these comments "you stupid SOB, you wouldn't know a good blind if it bit your mum on the butt" to be as offensive as the comments "wow, great looking blind" when it isn't.

(i.e. from the other post "Don't sweat the comments...they will typically come from the clueless, sad and disenfranchised.") I have made negative posts on submissions before and I can assure you that none of these labels reflect my state of mind or being. AND, I certainly hope that these off the cuff comments do not reflect WC's attitude towards those that $upport the product line and pay your $alaries.

however, I do think before a "master blind" is put up for sale that it needs to function on all of the operating systems that are supported by this site.

 edit: I refreshed before I posted and missed page 3, good suggestion Po (Walmart?, po baby)

THis is the first time I have seen them and before I even read the comments I had the same thoughts as some of the commenters. Oxidized recolored.

This is the kind of stuff I mean when I say 'play it safe' only this would fall into more of a 'no effort' response. I don't think 'purple' when I think Dance Floor. I think multicolored, bright, striking...or even something more formal (as in ballroom) like crystal, white light, stars, and glossy wood. Where is the 'disco ball' or 'spotlight' icon? Where is the DJ turntable? WHere is the 'white polyester vest' or 'platform shoes'?

I think folks expect more from Stardock than recolored packages. Especially when it comes to one so instantly recognizable. When you consider the stable of artists that they have it's disturbing. If a Master recolored a one of their own blinds or iconpacks and posted it for sale I doubt it would get through moderation. I would hope not.

I suppose it's their right. If they can take the Wii and make a black one and charge a few more bucks by making it a limited release or whatever, I guess it's okay to recolor whatever you want and call it 'new'. You couldn't recolor the Oxidized pack as it is and have it look the same as the dance floor pack, so there is that. But people are going to notice and voice there opinions in the comments or by keeping their walltes closed.

*edit slighly off topic...a lot of this and stuff said here and  in other threads has been slightly discouraging for me as far as my ever completeing a skin. I operate on one humble little PC with one OS. When one dies, I haven't had the emans to step up to a better PC or monitor, let alone purchasing or running multiple PCs or OS'. I like to think had I the time and resources I could accomplish a great deal but I don't see it happening any time soon or even later. My problem is I have all these ideas and graphics and stuff in my head. I would like to offer my limited abilitys to anyone who would like to take them and assemble them/partenr with me on them so I can see them come to pass. I'm not talking about selling them or anything like that, I just want to see them as a finished working skin. Selfish, I know, but sincere.

I think if u hit the Top Master skins gallery and go thru the litany of comments associated with them you may find quite a few negative comments by folks that obviously did not purchase the skin but felt free to leave that opinion anyway.

C'est la vie.

btw Po, my friend.. a few posts back... you formed and stated an opinion...from a screenshot.  

I rest my case

well, there is no money back guarantee on these skins so the picture is all most of us would be able to comment on..

go back to Po's idea of skinner's reviews, I like that, I'll volunteer.

Sure.

But in the particular case of the Dance Floor Icons we are talking about an obviously recolored package, not their quality or usability. Not even the craftmanship. (though, IMO, the recoloring turned them into generic icons and did nothing to enhance them) For lack of a better word, I think the overall dissapointment was a general feeling that the icons were 'recycled'. Again, I think people expect more from Stardock. That, in itself, does not mean Stardock was wrong. IMO, I would rather see the Oxidized pack 'updated' with live folders and such.

It's like purchasing a DVD. How many editions of Blade Runner have been released? Some are altered (Directors Cut, DIrectors Final Cut, etc) but each offers something 'new' or offers 'more'. And people buy them. How many would run out and purchase it if they decided to release a 'black and white' version?

If we are referring to your SS from the linked forum thread...I did not get into the area of bugs or how it ran on my system, etc. I reviewed the screenshot. That is a far cry from 'This is not Master quality, so I will pass' which is generic and all encompassing without any definitive reasons given. IMO, that is not even an opinion but more of an episode of torrets.

So, to be clear, from a full screenshot, one designed to sell the artwork, you are claiming one is incapable of determining that the elements shown... Start menu, Taskbar, Taskbuttons, Frames, buttons, Titlebuttons, Loggoff buttons are or are not of what one may consider a Master quality graphics and\or design in their specific opinion??

Pardon my expression Po, but that my friend, is tripe.

Edit - Who are you and what have you done with Po ?