Here's how I see it...

IMO

Tuesday, July 8, 2008 by vStyler | Discussion: Community

 

  In reading a recent thread I felt the need to say a couple of things..Personally, I would like to say I agree with IR, I don't think the threads title reflected the exact motive of its contents and I would have posted but could not...so with that said..

As far as tips go, there isn't some book of hidden tips and tricks we keep to ourselves, as problems arise when skinning I try to attack them with vigor, with stubborness, hard work and amibition, part of skinning IS figuring these things out, SKinning is like anything else in life, the harder you work, the more pride you take, the less apt you are to ask for help... the better your chances of success are. Ive been skinning a LONG time and can , with pride and honestly say 98% of it I learned by myself.. through trial and error, long hours, lots of coffee and cigarettes and hundreds of sleepless nights.

I highly doubt Davinci became a Master at his trade by giving up and asking for help everytime he came across what he deemed an insurmountable road block. Know this.. If you try something enough times.. it will work.. If you have the tenacity to keep at it until it's figured out no matter what.. then your well on your way to becoming a master of whatever your heart desires.

I firmly believe that one should not even ask for help until one has thouroughly exhausted body and mind in defiance of a problem, then and only then, when you have tried your best.. explorered EVERY avenue, at your wits end, then.. put your pride aside.. no matter how much it hurts.. and finally buckle.

The sense that people should be entitled to help, to less than glowing praise of their work..to me.. is unacceptable, It seems to me a very liberal philosophy and one that again.. to me.. holds no water. Now obviously.. I have zero problems helping people further their skinning knowledge, I love to help, I imagine that over the last year or so or more, other than maybe Cavan1 that Myself, IR and NT have contributed to 95% of the WB skinning help that has been given on this site so again.. I am not oppsed to helping but I do, in no way, feel obligated to hand out help or critique more mildly ot untruly because of my status on this site.

I see no need for a special Channel, or thread, or round table to be instigated.. when help is asked for.. almost 100% of the time.. it is given..and usually by myself, NT or IR. I would like to think that this in some small part is appreciated but judging by a few comments in the other thread, sometimes I wonder if it's worth it.

To speak to what ignited the post I refer to I shall only say this.... NT said under no uncertain terms exactly what many amongst us were thinking.. was it harsh?.. yes.. but sometimes a blunt sword is better than a speeding bullet. I do not disagree with the main point he made, I completely agree with him. Could he have said it in a more compassionate manner? Sure, he could have, however, this wasn't the first time this had been brought to the attention of the skinner, I myself, had a couple of times mentioned almost exactly the same thing and I wasn't the only one. Point being, nicety was not working. If Craig had not said what was said.. someone else was going to.

 For me the main reason was this.. Its VERY hard to see someone skipping all the work, breaking all the cardinal rules and then bumping those offending skins constantly to the top of page one, knocking down work that some folks spend months on. Straight and simple. If it wrong to think that is wrong. Then 7 out of 7 so called community elders, Masters, Mods alike.. were also wrong. If someone can explain to me why it might have been acceptable then please feel free.

I support stronger critique, less tolerance of the above tactics and a more open dialog when it comes to these things, I think WC may be a better place because of it.

Hard work makes a great skinner\ person. Work hard, don't give up, get it done... be proud.

 

 

 

 

 

First Previous Page 1 of 7 Next Last
sAARGe
Reply #1 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:08 PM
Hard work makes a great skinner\ person. Work hard, don't give up, get it done... be proud.


Totally agree ...   
kenwas
Reply #2 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:37 PM
more open dialog when it comes to these things, I think WC may be a better place because of it.


I agree that these "conversations" might be difficult at times but are sorely needed as it tends to show the work ethic and dedication that makes someone a master and that can only be good for the community at large. For example, it is clear from all the master responses that nothing will replace the hard work and sense of pride in finding solutions. There are no short cuts. I am only a wall guy, but the things that give me the greatest pleasure are things that I have learned about Vue and Cinema 4D through trial and error and just wading in to the programs. Thanks to NT, IR, yourself and the other masters that bar will stay high.
LightStar
Reply #3 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:51 PM
This is probably the finest article you have written here John, I salute you!
NightTrainthedark
Reply #4 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:51 PM
You make an excellent point when you say a beginner needs to do some time on their own trying to figure things out.

I remember a few years ago someone emailing me for help. When I asked them what version of skinstudio they used, they said..... ready?.... what is skinstudio?   
Point being that there are many many people around that can assist in getting people started. Once their feet are wet with skinstudio it is much easier to work with them but from the very start it is taxing.

Good post John.
messiah1
Reply #5 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:52 PM
If you try something enough times.. it will work


Agree. And that applies to not only skinning. That's the way I learned HTML, Visual Basic and SQL...try and try again.
Zoomba
Reply #6 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:52 PM

I don't necessarily agree with your point that people shouldn't ask for help until they've gone to their wits end.  Yes, people should work to figure something out first, so they learn from their mistakes, but saying that they shouldn't seek help until they've reached the point of extreme frustration is, in my view, more likely to drive someone away than it is to keep them in skinning.

I would like to see Masters and such being more proactive in reaching out to younger skinners.  Working to help build up the next group that will come up once the current big names have moved on.  It was a big problem for a while when the folks like MikeB, treetog, essorant etc moved into professional skinning and out of the community.  Why?  Because there was a massive talent drain and it took a while for new folks to step up to fill that gap.  In that period of time many declared that skinning was dead and that if only the old masters had taken the time to teach the younger skinners, there wouldn't be a huge gap.

Yes, eventually others stepped into fill that void.  But there was a dry period there.

Does outreach have to mean that you walk them through every step?  No, it doesn't have to.  Does offering tips and tricks, hints for particularly obscure bits of skinning lessen a skinner's later contribution?  Nope.

Maybe it's a sort of "I had to go through hell, so should everyone else" mentality, but I don't think that's really necessary.  Where is it written that only people who bang their head against the proverbial wall for hours upon hours, are the ones who should be elevated.  If a user has the art talent to create the images, but is stymied by technical hurdles learning things like SkinStudio, how is that a good thing?  I would love to see these barriers go away, and reach a point where if people have the talent to make the art, that assembling the technical skin is not the challenge that halts the whole thing.

Wizard1956
Reply #7 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:54 PM
And yet,a skin identical to the one that started this is now in the gallery.Where are the harsh words there? It's just another glass Vista clone,and the skinner has done it before,just different colors.Apparently these rules only apply to some,however.

I smell the stink of a double standard here.I didn't disagree so much with the message,just the venue in which it took place.A private discussion with the mods was more appropriate,but the "rulers" of WC chose the comments section.

If WC is going to be controlled by these so-called "masters" you just lost a subscriber.
vStyler
Reply #8 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:55 PM
but I don't think that's really necessary.


Definately not neccessary, more fulfilling, more worthwhile..more beneficial in the grand scheme of things? each can be their own judge, this was one skinners thoughts.
vStyler
Reply #9 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:57 PM
I would like to see Masters and such being more proactive in reaching out to younger skinners. Working to help build up the next group that will come up once the current big names have moved on.


I thought we already did that?   
bilbo1930
Reply #10 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:58 PM
Hard work makes a great skinner\ person. Work hard, don't give up, get it done... be proud.



Totally agree with John.
I made widgets from he's graphics, and test he's wb's.
I SEE , (because I see the build) what a hard work made new, and perfect skin, pixel by pixel.
He and I.R, give me sometimes hard critics, Im trying to learn from that.
I think the Masters support the Community.
If gave critics not gave to personnal attack, just trying to help others, or give ideas or tricks, for the better look .
..masters always deserves the respect..they not just skinners , but friends too.
vStyler
Reply #11 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:03 PM
I would like to see Masters and such being more proactive in reaching out to younger skinners. Working to help build up the next group that will come up once the current big names have moved on.


couldnt edit,

I thought we were already doing that?? Who gives the most help around here? You say that as if we haven't to this point been offering as much help as is possible, many times without a thankyou in return.

You know it pains me to say this but if WC is that worried about fledgling skinners then why is there still after years and years no manual or comprehensive guide to skinning in WB and SKS?


If WC is going to be controlled by these so-called "masters" you just lost a subscriber.


No one is controlling anything, I think thats taking it a little too far... don't you?
NightTrainthedark
Reply #12 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:04 PM
Maybe it's a sort of "I had to go through hell, so should everyone else" mentality,


That is part of it but you really won't "get it" until you struggle a bit. It's not that I want them to struggle, it's that they have to in order to understand everything. I can tell someone how to change a button but I can't teach them how to blend the button into the background properly. It's something that just clicks one day and then they are at the next level of skinning.
God, I hope that made sense.
ZubaZ
Reply #13 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:04 PM
To echo what Zoomba said to add what I said in the "other" Master thread, publicly taking on apprentices to teach them what a master has learned would be a good thing.

Wizard, I agree with you too that there was a failure here at the admin/moderator level too.  Pleas trust me that we're all taking this very seriously and are working for the success of Wincustomize above anything else.

As has always been the case, everyone at WC is part of a system that prevents abuse.  The admins and mods do what they can.  The community brings things missed to their attention (hopefully privately).   They cycle repeats with adjustment as things change.
vStyler
Reply #14 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:06 PM
God, I hope that made sense.


Perfect sense.


publicly taking on apprentices to teach them what a master has learned would be a good thing.


Ive done that too.. in one case turned out to be a very bad mistake... in every other case.. worked out wonderfully.
HAPTORK
Reply #15 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:14 PM
Nice read. Thanks.
Zoomba
Reply #16 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:18 PM

The Masters don't control the site.  No single user, nor any group of users controls the site.  The site is run by the moderation team and the site admins (myself, Jafo, ID, Brad etc).

My point on the outreach is not that it's not happening, it's more that it's not very visible.  You could be tutoring dozens of people behind the scenes, but if I can't see it, I don't know it's happening.  I've always hoped for more in the way of tutorials, threads on tips and tricks for sticky bits in SKS, or photoshop etc.  We see them from time to time, but they've gotten increasingly rare.  Even the Wiki, which has such promise, hasn't been very well utilized.

And please remember to distinguish WC from Stardock.  Manuals are the realm of SD and since WC really only employs me, with ID and Jafo doing part-time work, we don't have the resources to properly do it ourselves.  Plus, a manual from someone like me poking through the technical bits of the app isn't going to be nearly as useful as even a miniguide from a skinner who actually uses it to make a skin.

vStyler
Reply #17 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:44 PM
publicly taking on apprentices to teach them what a master has learned would be a good thing.


Ive done that too.. in one case turned out to be a very bad mistake... in every other case.. worked out wonderfully.

I would love to see these barriers go away, and reach a point where if people have the talent to make the art, that assembling the technical skin is not the challenge that halts the whole thing.


Wouldn't we all, in a prefect world, I'd love to see me not have to work at all, for the paycheck to just roll in while I bathed in sun rays and drank chocolate milk from platinum coated cows too.. fact is.. lets not make it sound as though skinning isn't hard work, it is, will always be... there is no easy path, golden gate you can walk through, To know this from the start, to not have any illusions is a good thing.

Again, If help is asked of us we give, if going the extra mile is asked of us, we have given, why do I get the feeling nothing any of has done in recent months has even been acknowledged? How many other Masters, and yes those that skin commercially ( as I also do ) do you see in the forums offering assistance?

proposing that someone should be willing to work hard to succeed shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing.. IMO.

If you cannot find time, or have the technical resources then perhaps... paying... someone to make a manual would be the next logical choice. I don't know many skinners, let alone master skinners that have that much spare time either to foster skinners to any noteable extent.. and honestly.. again.. Ive done that.

I actually foster, tutor, help several skinners behind the scenes right now, I see no reason for it to be a public showing and not because I have to but because its a rewarding experience on both ends but lastly I have to say if spending almost all day and all night of every day on the forums answering every question.. almost.. that we can is not an outreach and\or is not visible I have to ask myself why are we bothering.
kenwas
Reply #18 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:54 PM
I would love to see these barriers go away, and reach a point where if people have the talent to make the art, that assembling the technical skin is not the challenge that halts the whole thing.


I don't think this is particular to skinning. It is true with almost all form of computer graphic art. Dig into Cinema 4D, Maya, Max, Photoshop...all require a fairly intense learning curve to use the programs to their full capability. It goes with the territory. Tutorials are helpful in many ways but can also lead to just copying someone's technique if not combined with a good deal of plain old poking around within the program.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #19 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3:55 PM
The skin that Wizard is barking about is a "mis use" of one of alexandries skins but I can't find Alexandries skin for comparison.   

Otherwise something might have already been said.     

I am always willing to take on an apprentice as long as they are not batshiat crazy and are willing to try. It's not as easy as some think at first and when they really get into it, it is too much for them. This is saddening becuase I feel like I failed but I really don't believe that to be the case.

Wanting to do it and actually doing it are completely different things. People get a different perspective of skinning once they get into it and I understand why/how they might be driven away.

How many times have you heard someone say they open skinstudio all the time and then close it 5 minutes later? If they just spent a couple hours completely farting around, they will learn alot and not be as intimidated with Skinstudio. You won't break anything permanently. The worst you will suffer is a reboot.

SKS6 is supposed to make skinning easier but I don't think that is the case. The program really doesn't make any difference. It is the user that has the shortcomings, not the software.

There are new things in Vista that have alot of us pulling hair right now. In a small way we are in the same boat. We don't get breakdowns of all the changes made with updates to WB or SKS. We have to discover them ourselves and then when we can't figure it out we go to Danillo, Miks B or Niel. Trying to get that information can sometimes take somre work.
ZubaZ
Reply #20 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 4:37 PM
The skin that Wizard is barking about is a "mis use" of one of alexandries skins but I can't find Alexandries skin for comparison.
Please remember that all report of rips or other things that might embarrass anyone publicly (whether it is proven true or false) should be handled privately with the WC staff.

(as an aside, Alexandrieis aware of that skin and didn't see an issue.  )

Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

  • Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
  • Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
  • Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
  • It's simple, and FREE!



web-wc01