Masters....... have your say.
Friday, July 4, 2008 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
Someone suggested the masters make a post about skinners, because some skinners are only skinning correctly, 3/4 and such. So i thought i would start one for them.
This IS NOT a BITCH thread, its a mature discussion of what masters would like to see from us apprentice skinners and what we can do to improve ourselves.
I think this will be VERY REWARDING as we pick up tips and such and hopefully improve our skinning and one day become masters ourselves.....!!
i now give the masters the stage and let them have their say............
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mitche323
Reply #22 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:29 AM
Reply #22 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:29 AM
What I am really curious about is; why is it that when genuine talent shows up, it sometimes just disapears? I will give a couple of examples - there are two skins by mtechnik that at the time were way ahead of everything else.......and then he just disappears? Also, Michael Brandt with a bunch of skins that showed emerging expertise... and whatever happened to him? I honestly thought about learning to skin myself - until I saw mtechniks first skin DiverseXP. And then I woke up, lol.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #23 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:38 AM
Reply #23 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:38 AM
This whole conversation reminds me of American Idol a bit.You want people to be encouraged and you want them to be good...but sometimes you see the occasional contestant that makes you wonder...didnt ANYONE EVER tell them the truth?Didnt anyone love them enough to say,...you really dont have any talent or creativity...maybe this isnt for you.
The look of disbelief on their faces makes me cringe inside.So while you may get a laugh and poke fun at them...you still feel sad for them.
Yes,we should all encourage anyone who wants to try to give it a go...help them out if you can...but if they never show any aptitude for it...be merciful and suggest (nicely) maybe they take up a new hobby.Stop blindly praising EVERYTHING...when I see someone leave a compliment on one of my skins and then you see the same person lavish praise on something terrible...that persons compliment almost becomes an insult.
If someone shows promise...bend over backwards to help them thru the rough parts...keep them interested so they dont get discouraged and quit.
I expected to see vStyler here but then I remembered he was unable to respond to any of Kitty's threads.
The look of disbelief on their faces makes me cringe inside.So while you may get a laugh and poke fun at them...you still feel sad for them.
Yes,we should all encourage anyone who wants to try to give it a go...help them out if you can...but if they never show any aptitude for it...be merciful and suggest (nicely) maybe they take up a new hobby.Stop blindly praising EVERYTHING...when I see someone leave a compliment on one of my skins and then you see the same person lavish praise on something terrible...that persons compliment almost becomes an insult.
If someone shows promise...bend over backwards to help them thru the rough parts...keep them interested so they dont get discouraged and quit.
I expected to see vStyler here but then I remembered he was unable to respond to any of Kitty's threads.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #24 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:42 AM
Plus you should all take into account there are sometimes more to a story than whats on the surface.Things that might change your whole view of what happened.(but not my place to reveal)
Reply #24 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:42 AM
I am the only person that got nasty and I chose to do so.
Plus you should all take into account there are sometimes more to a story than whats on the surface.Things that might change your whole view of what happened.(but not my place to reveal)
ArileenDesign
Reply #25 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:57 AM
Reply #25 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:57 AM
"Do what you love to do and do it well" <---- what gran father told me ages ago and i guess it's the same for everything.
This means, make things completely don't left something cause you guess it's not important; keep improve your skills and yourself even if you or someone else guess you are at the top; and talking especially for skinning: make things cause you love create them not cause you want people love your work and by extension you.
.....
This means, make things completely don't left something cause you guess it's not important; keep improve your skills and yourself even if you or someone else guess you are at the top; and talking especially for skinning: make things cause you love create them not cause you want people love your work and by extension you.
.....
WOM
Reply #26 Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:19 AM
Reply #26 Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:19 AM
If it works and is not a rip, then it gets uploaded(approved). If its crap, that doesn't matter as a lot of people will download it and think its great. With over 3 million members, there will be some, most of which are the newer people that don't really know what is crap, good or great. I have only about 40 skins on my machine(running VISTA), and most of those are older skins as they were great. Granted, they don't have the latest wb6 stuff but they are still great. I have no crap (vista or XP clones) and only a few good skins in that 40. As most know, I'am not a skinner but have been exposed to skinning since july 2001 and lived with a skinner, so I think that qualifies me to speak. I've seen what it takes to produce an origional skin and the time it takes., with all the bitching to get it right. Just ny dime(inflation).
eieio
Reply #27 Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:51 AM
Reply #27 Saturday, July 5, 2008 10:51 AM
Many good comments and tips from Masters and others.
It always comes back to 'skin for yourself and what you feel is good'. Most skinners I know are their own worst critics.
If you are skinning for points, praise, or promotion, you don't need to skin .. you need a therapist.
It always comes back to 'skin for yourself and what you feel is good'. Most skinners I know are their own worst critics.
If you are skinning for points, praise, or promotion, you don't need to skin .. you need a therapist.
Jafo
Reply #28 Saturday, July 5, 2008 11:46 AM
Reply #28 Saturday, July 5, 2008 11:46 AM
Danillo got it 100% right in #7 .... [even with the dodgey English].
One thing to remember, folks....even Masters really only have an 'opinion', like any other member. Yes, they may also have time and experience/competence...but their 'opinion' is still just that.
This thread/topic would benefit a damn sight more by NOT referring to specifics...aka singling out ANY ONE individual....'good or bad', for that matter.
Skinning is quite simple....it's an artform that can be appreciated on many levels, and practised by any level of 'expertise'. To discriminate is generally to be elitist - somewhat of an undesirable trait...in anyone.
This thread could be a handy forum for suggesting improvements in skinning and skinners' expertise... such as those '10 commandments' posted above, but let's not have it as yet another thing a poster listed as detracting/degrading Wincustomize.com....
Daiwa
Reply #29 Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:52 PM
Reply #29 Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:52 PM
I'm no Master, by a longshot, but I am a bit anal-retentive about skinning and my advice would be:
Refine, refine, refine... then refine again.
For me, a skin is never really "finished." I use a skin for several weeks in an effort to expose all the potentially affected windows, toolwindows, dialogs, etc., of the apps I use routinely before I consider uploading it, and often that isn't long enough. I'll upload one I think is as finished as I can get it, only to find something subtle weeks later that bugs me & needs to be polished up. There are also so many skinning nooks, crannies & attics that no single user alone can hope to stumble across - you can't really "complete" a skin without feedback from users who do different things & use different apps, which is why I really have no problem with skinners posting updates. I don't care if that puts it back on the front page.
There's also the fact that many of us can only develop on one OS platform, which is likely true for most non-Master skinners, leaving us unable to take skins for a shakedown cruise on both XP & Vista. The differences between SKS5 & SKS6 are also proving to be challenges to many part-time skinners.
.02. And thanks, Kitty, for stimulating the discussion.
Refine, refine, refine... then refine again.
For me, a skin is never really "finished." I use a skin for several weeks in an effort to expose all the potentially affected windows, toolwindows, dialogs, etc., of the apps I use routinely before I consider uploading it, and often that isn't long enough. I'll upload one I think is as finished as I can get it, only to find something subtle weeks later that bugs me & needs to be polished up. There are also so many skinning nooks, crannies & attics that no single user alone can hope to stumble across - you can't really "complete" a skin without feedback from users who do different things & use different apps, which is why I really have no problem with skinners posting updates. I don't care if that puts it back on the front page.
There's also the fact that many of us can only develop on one OS platform, which is likely true for most non-Master skinners, leaving us unable to take skins for a shakedown cruise on both XP & Vista. The differences between SKS5 & SKS6 are also proving to be challenges to many part-time skinners.
.02. And thanks, Kitty, for stimulating the discussion.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #30 Saturday, July 5, 2008 2:29 PM
Reply #30 Saturday, July 5, 2008 2:29 PM
To add to Fuzzy and the folks advise.....
Details details details. The more time dedicated on a skin the better. It will show your dedication to perfection, slaping out a skin is not enough, one must strive for the next level at all times. Also never be afraid to take a plunge. Stepping out side your norm style and broadening your range of either skin types or styles, is always rewarding, even if the skin flops, you still gain knowledge.
Being a master IMO not only pertains to skinning but your presence within the skinning community. Time, Effort, Dedication, Community support/service , are all part of being a Master.
Skinning is quite simple....it's an art form that can be appreciated on many levels, and practised by any level of 'expertise'. To discriminate is generally to be elitist - somewhat of an undesirable trait...in anyone.
Exactly. Slamming another's works instead of offering constructive criticisms, Will benefit no one. Not everybody wants to dedicate the time and effort needed to be a Master, not everybody wants to become one.
A true master offers those who are willing to learn ,the opportunity to expand their horizons by offering help and constructive criticisms. Yet knows when to back off and let those who don't want the help, sink or swim on their own
Details details details. The more time dedicated on a skin the better. It will show your dedication to perfection, slaping out a skin is not enough, one must strive for the next level at all times. Also never be afraid to take a plunge. Stepping out side your norm style and broadening your range of either skin types or styles, is always rewarding, even if the skin flops, you still gain knowledge.
Being a master IMO not only pertains to skinning but your presence within the skinning community. Time, Effort, Dedication, Community support/service , are all part of being a Master.
Skinning is quite simple....it's an art form that can be appreciated on many levels, and practised by any level of 'expertise'. To discriminate is generally to be elitist - somewhat of an undesirable trait...in anyone.
Exactly. Slamming another's works instead of offering constructive criticisms, Will benefit no one. Not everybody wants to dedicate the time and effort needed to be a Master, not everybody wants to become one.
A true master offers those who are willing to learn ,the opportunity to expand their horizons by offering help and constructive criticisms. Yet knows when to back off and let those who don't want the help, sink or swim on their own
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #31 Saturday, July 5, 2008 3:41 PM
Snobbery is an undesirable trait...but elitist?...not such a bad thing if aquired honestly.
If vStyler was here he would tell you why he does this and is so good at it.Its his job and he believes he is good as the best and better than the rest.He aspires with every pixel to move closer to perfection.
I wanted to be like Mike...and Hippy,Treetog,Dani,Tiggz and so on...if I didnt believe I could some day get there...I probably would have quit already.
Mediocrity is no sin...contentment with it is.
Reply #31 Saturday, July 5, 2008 3:41 PM
Don't make yourselves into elitist snobs.
Snobbery is an undesirable trait...but elitist?...not such a bad thing if aquired honestly.
If vStyler was here he would tell you why he does this and is so good at it.Its his job and he believes he is good as the best and better than the rest.He aspires with every pixel to move closer to perfection.
I wanted to be like Mike...and Hippy,Treetog,Dani,Tiggz and so on...if I didnt believe I could some day get there...I probably would have quit already.
Mediocrity is no sin...contentment with it is.
Jafo
Reply #32 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:53 PM
Reply #32 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:53 PM
I wanted to be like Mike...and Hippy,Treetog,Dani,Tiggz and so on...if I didnt believe I could some day get there...I probably would have quit already.
IRB....that's 'ego', not 'elitism'....there's a difference.
It's healthy to have an ego....just not quite as healthy to be arrogant with it.
And I don't think being content with one's mediocrity is a sin...but I do think that despising it in others is....
Jafo
Reply #33 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:55 PM
Reply #33 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:55 PM
"I think I'm good" is better than "I'm better than everyone else" ....
Vampothika
Reply #34 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:59 PM
Reply #34 Saturday, July 5, 2008 7:59 PM
...for the record, i just want to state that i started this thread not to red flag anyone, ask for people to make appologies and the like, or point fingers.....
i just want basic tips, suggestions, ideas of what masters would like to see from us up and coming skinners.......
i just want basic tips, suggestions, ideas of what masters would like to see from us up and coming skinners.......
NightTrainthedark
Reply #35 Saturday, July 5, 2008 8:56 PM
Reply #35 Saturday, July 5, 2008 8:56 PM
I guess that protecting the integrity of skinning and being an elitist are opposite sides of the same coin.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #36 Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:00 AM
Just because I'm bettern' thems...dosnt mean I shant grant thems an audience...or allow thems to touch the hem of my garments.
Arrogance may not be an attractive quality,but it may be a necessary(or at least somewhat unavoidable)trait in those who are driven to excel.
Lets be real here...admit it not,conceil it well or not...I havnt met a talented person who didnt harbor some level of at least mild arrogance...I think its darn near a requirement to be successful at anything.(maybe thats why I'm not doing well,I'm just too sweeeeeet )
Despise may be too strong a word for the contented mediocre...I dont despise the stupid either(stupidity cant be helped)...but the lazy ignorant that refuse to learn should be ignored.Same as the mediocre...if thats the best they got,thats cool...but like NT said...some of them can do better.
Dont despise them,ignore them.
Nt's reasons for not ignoring Butch go deeper than is proper to be discussed here.
Reply #36 Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:00 AM
It's healthy to have an ego....just not quite as healthy to be arrogant with it.
And I don't think being content with one's mediocrity is a sin...but I do think that despising it in others is....
And I don't think being content with one's mediocrity is a sin...but I do think that despising it in others is....
Just because I'm bettern' thems...dosnt mean I shant grant thems an audience...or allow thems to touch the hem of my garments.
Arrogance may not be an attractive quality,but it may be a necessary(or at least somewhat unavoidable)trait in those who are driven to excel.
Lets be real here...admit it not,conceil it well or not...I havnt met a talented person who didnt harbor some level of at least mild arrogance...I think its darn near a requirement to be successful at anything.(maybe thats why I'm not doing well,I'm just too sweeeeeet
)Despise may be too strong a word for the contented mediocre...I dont despise the stupid either(stupidity cant be helped)...but the lazy ignorant that refuse to learn should be ignored.Same as the mediocre...if thats the best they got,thats cool...but like NT said...some of them can do better.
Dont despise them,ignore them.Nt's reasons for not ignoring Butch go deeper than is proper to be discussed here.
superman
Reply #37 Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:26 AM
Reply #37 Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:26 AM
1.SirSmiley has no arrogance. He doesn't mind these little things jokes or taunts...and he never encouraged fights. He is really helpful.
2. Hankers always acts for peace..and he too has no arrogance.
3. And only sugar and girls are sweet....not me some great men said...
2. Hankers always acts for peace..and he too has no arrogance.
3. And only sugar and girls are sweet....not me some great men said...
Vampothika
Reply #38 Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:46 PM
I have.....but each to their own and so forth. thanks for the insites and tips that everyone has given.
Reply #38 Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:46 PM
I havnt met a talented person who didnt harbor some level of at least mild arrogance...
I have.....but each to their own and so forth. thanks for the insites and tips that everyone has given.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #39 Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:49 PM
I suspect they were just intelligent enough to keep it well hidden...as is best.
Reply #39 Sunday, July 6, 2008 7:49 PM
I have
I suspect they were just intelligent enough to keep it well hidden...as is best.
superman
Reply #40 Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:02 PM
Reply #40 Sunday, July 6, 2008 9:02 PM
If arrogance is hidden it has no meaning...but if you express it, it's really childish.
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Reply #21 Saturday, July 5, 2008 9:27 AM