Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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eieio
Reply #82 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:43 PM
Reply #82 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:43 PM
No, I think one of the things that's going to result from this is a better way to communicate with beta testers and to reward them.
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #83 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:06 PM
Right, not at current volumes it is definitely not a money maker.
The question is does Stardock want to keep WB a niche tool or bring it to the masses.
I can see that being the case in the past. Customization(not skinning) is more and more common, the more computer savy people become. The other issue is really brand recognition, WB itself is great the real issue is getting people to know it. Even if digital sales remain higher, boxes on shelves buys product visibility and recognition.
Really the question is where does Stardock want to take it. To the masses, or remain niche? As I see it, generally users are not happy with the amount of new content and master skinners are not happy with the amount of money they are making. Staying niche doesn't solve those issues. If you can bring the product to the masses, regardless of the packaging(master skins, skin packs however you want to do it) it seems you have more options to bring people the things they want at a price that pleases everyone(or is at least acceptable to a majority anyway). However truly bringing the product to the masses comes with its own set of issues, and also generally requires compromises on all sides.
Trying to keep the product a niche when more and more people from outside the skinning community are joining, seems like it is at least a part of the problem with the community. If you want to keep the community small and happy, that is an option, but to do so I would think you would have to find a way to keep the kind of customers you don't want out. This obviously would have an effect on the bottom line, and as much as taking the products to the masses seems a scary proposition, I personally think this route is even scarier.
Reply #83 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:06 PM
As for the buck a download concept. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone actually making money at that price point...maybe (doubtful) if there where millions of actual downloads monthly.
Right, not at current volumes it is definitely not a money maker.
The question is does Stardock want to keep WB a niche tool or bring it to the masses.
WindowBlinds was at retail. But it wasn't worth the effort versus the sales (we sell a lot more copies digitally).
I can see that being the case in the past. Customization(not skinning) is more and more common, the more computer savy people become. The other issue is really brand recognition, WB itself is great the real issue is getting people to know it. Even if digital sales remain higher, boxes on shelves buys product visibility and recognition.
Really the question is where does Stardock want to take it. To the masses, or remain niche? As I see it, generally users are not happy with the amount of new content and master skinners are not happy with the amount of money they are making. Staying niche doesn't solve those issues. If you can bring the product to the masses, regardless of the packaging(master skins, skin packs however you want to do it) it seems you have more options to bring people the things they want at a price that pleases everyone(or is at least acceptable to a majority anyway). However truly bringing the product to the masses comes with its own set of issues, and also generally requires compromises on all sides.
Trying to keep the product a niche when more and more people from outside the skinning community are joining, seems like it is at least a part of the problem with the community. If you want to keep the community small and happy, that is an option, but to do so I would think you would have to find a way to keep the kind of customers you don't want out. This obviously would have an effect on the bottom line, and as much as taking the products to the masses seems a scary proposition, I personally think this route is even scarier.
ZubaZ
Reply #84 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:23 PM
Reply #84 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:23 PM
Yeah . . what Jeffrey said. (much better than I did) 
BigDogBigFeet
Reply #85 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:26 PM
Reply #85 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:26 PM
I must say I've spent some time reading through this one. My advice is take your time and learn from whatever is going on. It does no good to resist or to protest what people are telling you with their dollars. Noone is sending WC free servers with the latest liquid cooled quad cores purring out the bandwidth with ease. What's here took some blood, sweat tears and years and of course eeekkk $$$$. That said, although I haven't tried to tally my expenses in the endeaver, it isn't $20 either or $35. I realize I have been free to choose so it all works can't complain.
Yet, I'm unsure of what problem our Frog prince is trying to solve. The US economy has got a bad flu bug to be sure and when this happens there's less free cash flow for people. My expenses keeping going up and I can't just raise the price I charge to my employer. Corners get cut in different ways. I stay home more. I eat alot of beans and potatoes these days and other staples(which is good that I stay home more). I still buy really good toothpaste and mouthwash. Priorities you know.
In any case, I've never been made aware of any "Beta Test" program here. I have CursorXP Plus. I downloaded the free CursorFX after its release, lots of stuff I like about it, but it never showed up im my SDC as a Beta release. I did bite on an early release of Sound Packager another great new product but no real idea of how to effectively communicate my "tester experience". Should be a separate "invisible forum" fot the beta testers for that I would think.
Another great idea I think would be to have troll gripe posts removed from the main forums. Too often an unknowing visitor might see some of the tripe that gets posted and believe Stardock doesn't have great products, Stardock does. You know put it on a back page that the griper and some members can still see but the general public only sees a mirror. Or, accept this sort of thing as will happen with an open forum.
Finally, after 2 full years with OD behind me and 2 years of renewals in advance you would think the enterprising Stardock would send me an email, an open survey or something to find out what I think from my experience thus far. I mean you know a personal one. What's been working. What falls short. For me, that is.
Anyways, I really like this place. I like to hang out a bit. And, I think the economic mix and community mix can be adjusted. And.. the early feedback is "Sins of a Solar Empire" is wicked. If you like a good game kick the tires on this one. Later.
Yet, I'm unsure of what problem our Frog prince is trying to solve. The US economy has got a bad flu bug to be sure and when this happens there's less free cash flow for people. My expenses keeping going up and I can't just raise the price I charge to my employer. Corners get cut in different ways. I stay home more. I eat alot of beans and potatoes these days and other staples(which is good that I stay home more). I still buy really good toothpaste and mouthwash. Priorities you know.
In any case, I've never been made aware of any "Beta Test" program here. I have CursorXP Plus. I downloaded the free CursorFX after its release, lots of stuff I like about it, but it never showed up im my SDC as a Beta release. I did bite on an early release of Sound Packager another great new product but no real idea of how to effectively communicate my "tester experience". Should be a separate "invisible forum" fot the beta testers for that I would think.
Another great idea I think would be to have troll gripe posts removed from the main forums. Too often an unknowing visitor might see some of the tripe that gets posted and believe Stardock doesn't have great products, Stardock does. You know put it on a back page that the griper and some members can still see but the general public only sees a mirror. Or, accept this sort of thing as will happen with an open forum.
Finally, after 2 full years with OD behind me and 2 years of renewals in advance you would think the enterprising Stardock would send me an email, an open survey or something to find out what I think from my experience thus far. I mean you know a personal one. What's been working. What falls short. For me, that is.
Anyways, I really like this place. I like to hang out a bit. And, I think the economic mix and community mix can be adjusted. And.. the early feedback is "Sins of a Solar Empire" is wicked. If you like a good game kick the tires on this one. Later.
SirSmiley
Reply #86 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:43 PM
This really has been asked, answered, hashed, rehashed, fried and unfried in the forum. From my understanding people get rewarded based on a combination of things such as submissions,tutorials, articles, and forum participation. Actual submissions being only part of the equation. Truthfully I never gave much thought of it until the Master Apprentice status appeared.
As for being "chatty" that's what a community is all about. The bulk of the posts/responses I've done (and I'm sure most others) are helping other users out with specific problems, feedback and all around general ideas. Personally, I think rewarding people solely on the amount of submissions isn't very community minded.
Reply #86 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:43 PM
maybe you should throw some of us long time skinners a bone now and then, make us feel like we are part of the community too. Seems like the only ones that get noticed are the chatty ones in the Forums.
This really has been asked, answered, hashed, rehashed, fried and unfried in the forum. From my understanding people get rewarded based on a combination of things such as submissions,tutorials, articles, and forum participation. Actual submissions being only part of the equation. Truthfully I never gave much thought of it until the Master Apprentice status appeared.
As for being "chatty" that's what a community is all about. The bulk of the posts/responses I've done (and I'm sure most others) are helping other users out with specific problems, feedback and all around general ideas. Personally, I think rewarding people solely on the amount of submissions isn't very community minded.
Vad_M
Reply #87 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:49 PM
Reply #87 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:49 PM
I'm sure that skinning just a community right now. And this thought is much afflicts me because it could be a huge market bringing millions of dollars...
Moreover, it seems to me that the time when it could be transformed into the market is irrevocably missed. Too many free skins around and in the internet. So this is hardly probable that someone will pay money for this.
Moreover, it seems to me that the time when it could be transformed into the market is irrevocably missed. Too many free skins around and in the internet. So this is hardly probable that someone will pay money for this.
Goldwing
Reply #88 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:22 PM
I agree 100%....Maybe I should of just submitted a bunch of screen shots and spent the time I put into SKS in the forums. I would have been a Master by now.
Reply #88 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:22 PM
I think rewarding people solely on the amount of submissions isn't very community minded.
I agree 100%....Maybe I should of just submitted a bunch of screen shots and spent the time I put into SKS in the forums. I would have been a Master by now.
vStyler
Reply #89 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:35 PM
IR is the official WB breaker.
Reply #89 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:35 PM
Now go break something!
IR is the official WB breaker.
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #90 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:13 PM
I agree and disagree.
Selling skins by themselves is a tough sell especially with all the free stuff available, but it is hard to say what people will pay for. I don't know if just buying skins is something I would be interested in(probably not), however sold as a themed skin pack with WB as a way to customize Windows I think it could have legs. However skins would have to be packaged better than now, and fully supported on the same level as the product itself IMHO. What I mean by "packaged better" is that is too often a skin comes close but misses the mark on details for my personal preference. Too hit a broader target a skin would need more options. For example big/small start panel is pretty standard but things like thick borders, thin borders, big buttons, small buttons, etc... maybe it would really be like 5 variations on the same theme loosely called 1 skin, a pack would contain several of these. Anyway, however they decide to put it together I don't think it's too late to capitalize on the customization market, if anything I would think the market is still growing.
Reply #90 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:13 PM
Moreover, it seems to me that the time when it could be transformed into the market is irrevocably missed. Too many free skins around and in the internet. So this is hardly probable that someone will pay money for this.
I agree and disagree.
Selling skins by themselves is a tough sell especially with all the free stuff available, but it is hard to say what people will pay for. I don't know if just buying skins is something I would be interested in(probably not), however sold as a themed skin pack with WB as a way to customize Windows I think it could have legs. However skins would have to be packaged better than now, and fully supported on the same level as the product itself IMHO. What I mean by "packaged better" is that is too often a skin comes close but misses the mark on details for my personal preference. Too hit a broader target a skin would need more options. For example big/small start panel is pretty standard but things like thick borders, thin borders, big buttons, small buttons, etc... maybe it would really be like 5 variations on the same theme loosely called 1 skin, a pack would contain several of these. Anyway, however they decide to put it together I don't think it's too late to capitalize on the customization market, if anything I would think the market is still growing.
SirSmiley
Reply #91 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:36 PM
Trust me I've tried that...sadly it doesn't work.
You'll always be a Master in my books!
Reply #91 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:36 PM
I agree 100%....Maybe I should of just submitted a bunch of screen shots and spent the time I put into SKS in the forums. I would have been a Master by now.
Trust me I've tried that...sadly it doesn't work.
You'll always be a Master in my books!
Goldwing
Reply #92 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:54 PM
Reply #92 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:54 PM
Thanks Smiley...Never been bitter about it, just could never understand it.
Sadly I have seen it. Not to Master though.
Sadly I have seen it. Not to Master though.
Jafo
Reply #93 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:18 AM
Reply #93 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:18 AM
I am still a citizen 1 after 5 or 6 years. Just my opinion but if you want people to buy and use the software maybe you should throw some of us long time skinners a bone now and then, make us feel like we are part of the community too. Seems like the only ones that get noticed are the chatty ones in the Forums.
That's something that's being looked at. It's certainly not enough simply to be 'chatty' on the forums [even though it may look that way at times]. It's about people being noticed contributing to the site/community in all sorts of ways, but in particular there can be the odd skinner or three who gets misplaced.
One thing we're committed to doing is looking after the skinners, particularly when skinning gets more daunting these days, so plans are afoot to ensure 'overlooking' doesn't happen...
Jafo
Reply #94 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:21 AM
Reply #94 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:21 AM
Moreover, it seems to me that the time when it could be transformed into the market is irrevocably missed. Too many free skins around and in the internet. So this is hardly probable that someone will pay money for this.
I don't think that's the case. To a degree it has needed a 'maturation' of skinning to take it from the realm of backyard DIY people [hobbyists] to commercial viability/acceptance...
Shadow Lord
Reply #95 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:57 AM
Hmmm. I goeth back to my ye old post on the mycolors "news item" from a few days back and boy was I right on the money again! Man this company never ceases to amaze me but not surprise me... I find it weird that people are surprised about this post and the whining from the developers. This has been coming for years folks: it started w/ free vs. pro versions, then came wincustomize subscriptions, then came master skins, then came all the stupid focus on corporate sponsorships. The developers expect to give less and less to the people (less service, less support) charge more (yes the SW price may have not changed much BUT everything else that makes the software worthwhile costs more) and sit there wondering why nobody is interested in helping their big faceless corporation.
Reply #95 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 1:57 AM
Maybe this is a sign that Stardock should simply abandon the consumer market entirely. It's simply not worth the effort anymore.
The basic problem is that people have unreasonable expectations for $20 programs. You say you've spent $150 in the past 5 years. Okay, that almost pays for an upgrade to Windows Vista which generates BILLIONS in revenue. Is Windows Vista perfect?
I see two likely scenarios:
Either:
a) Stardock simply moves out of the consumer software market and moves exclusively to things like MyColors and other complete solutions.
The basic problem is that people have unreasonable expectations for $20 programs. You say you've spent $150 in the past 5 years. Okay, that almost pays for an upgrade to Windows Vista which generates BILLIONS in revenue. Is Windows Vista perfect?
I see two likely scenarios:
Either:
a) Stardock simply moves out of the consumer software market and moves exclusively to things like MyColors and other complete solutions.
Hmmm. I goeth back to my ye old post on the mycolors "news item" from a few days back and boy was I right on the money again! Man this company never ceases to amaze me but not surprise me... I find it weird that people are surprised about this post and the whining from the developers. This has been coming for years folks: it started w/ free vs. pro versions, then came wincustomize subscriptions, then came master skins, then came all the stupid focus on corporate sponsorships. The developers expect to give less and less to the people (less service, less support) charge more (yes the SW price may have not changed much BUT everything else that makes the software worthwhile costs more) and sit there wondering why nobody is interested in helping their big faceless corporation.
Shadow Lord
Reply #96 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:00 AM
IR I was going to commend you as one of the old timers for standing up and not toting the party line (brad and company are god, WB is my master) but I unfortunately see one post later and you are there praising how vlaid their points are and telling them to jack up prices... So does this mean you will now buy a JACKED UP IN PRICE OD2K8 or are you still going to let your subscription run out?
Reply #96 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:00 AM
Sorry Brad,I meant the feedback from people who are knowledgeable and concise...it still gets ignored...I agree,MOST feedback is vague and incoherent...from users who may have no clue how to manage a pc.
For the first time buyer,WB is a great deal...for a longtime supporter it sometimes seems lacking in completeness.
I'm not giving up,I still love OD despite my(and it's) occasional crankiness.Lots of software seems to become really good about version 7 so I'm still a fan.
I see all your points as valid...if the software needs to become more expensive to truly rise above...I'm all for it.
For the first time buyer,WB is a great deal...for a longtime supporter it sometimes seems lacking in completeness.
I'm not giving up,I still love OD despite my(and it's) occasional crankiness.Lots of software seems to become really good about version 7 so I'm still a fan.
I see all your points as valid...if the software needs to become more expensive to truly rise above...I'm all for it.
IR I was going to commend you as one of the old timers for standing up and not toting the party line (brad and company are god, WB is my master) but I unfortunately see one post later and you are there praising how vlaid their points are and telling them to jack up prices... So does this mean you will now buy a JACKED UP IN PRICE OD2K8 or are you still going to let your subscription run out?
Shadow Lord
Reply #97 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:06 AM
Which it is! You have said it many times your self this is not a hobby, you are in it to make money and I have always said that is o.k. And please do dump your marginally profitable programs... How long do you think you will last in the consumer space charging a ton for a toy? Yes, a toy... WB does cute things if you have a good skin for it (which more than likely these days will cost you) but it certainly does not make my PC more user friendly... Of course commercial accounts will be different... You can continue to be a force for marketing in that sector but I think that would die a rather quick death... I mean how many people are dying to have coke themed desktop and if you think users here are bad in terms of support imagine every joe shmoe who got a CD w/ his six pack of beer and now his "puter no work no more" after installing my colors...
Reply #97 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:06 AM
But the real message here is: If people are going to treat Stardock like it's just a purely for-profit corporation rather than a community driven company of like minded users, then we can do that. We can eliminate all the marginally profitable programs in a swoop, raise our prices, hire a few more QA and support people and call it a day.
Which it is! You have said it many times your self this is not a hobby, you are in it to make money and I have always said that is o.k. And please do dump your marginally profitable programs... How long do you think you will last in the consumer space charging a ton for a toy? Yes, a toy... WB does cute things if you have a good skin for it (which more than likely these days will cost you) but it certainly does not make my PC more user friendly... Of course commercial accounts will be different... You can continue to be a force for marketing in that sector but I think that would die a rather quick death... I mean how many people are dying to have coke themed desktop and if you think users here are bad in terms of support imagine every joe shmoe who got a CD w/ his six pack of beer and now his "puter no work no more" after installing my colors...
Shadow Lord
Reply #98 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:07 AM
It is. It is owned and operated by Stardock. It is their mouth piece if you will...
Reply #98 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:07 AM
Actually I was thinking this site was related to Stardock. My apologies.
It is. It is owned and operated by Stardock. It is their mouth piece if you will...
Shadow Lord
Reply #99 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:13 AM
Zoomba,
Unfortunately that is your problem and not the consumers. See you guys havea ctach 22 that is put you between a rock and a hard place namely: you have SW that is useless w/o content and content that is useless w/o software. When aconsumer buys your program it is useless to him unless there is content to go with it. If there is no content, or it costs money (no matter what the cost to you to produce the content) the consumer will feel robbed..
Reply #99 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:13 AM
guess what's at issue is the percieved value of software and content. For those who themselves do not create the content, there is a certain lack of understanding of what is involved in making a professional quality skin. When you don't know how something goes together, and if there's no physical product in your hands at the end, it's too easy to just assume that it's cheap or of little real value.
Zoomba,
Unfortunately that is your problem and not the consumers. See you guys havea ctach 22 that is put you between a rock and a hard place namely: you have SW that is useless w/o content and content that is useless w/o software. When aconsumer buys your program it is useless to him unless there is content to go with it. If there is no content, or it costs money (no matter what the cost to you to produce the content) the consumer will feel robbed..
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #100 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:29 AM
Free is easy when your small. Just about all of the things you mentioned pissed me off too...
And I am sure as hell not usually one to stand on their side, but...
The feature set has grown, the customer base has grown, and the overhead has grown.
Now granted I don't know what kind of margin they are pulling,and I am a firm believer in maximizing both sides of the customer benefit/business benefit equation, but they gotta do what they gotta do to stay in business. Now the decisions they have made along the line I may not agree with, but I do support the product and would hate to see it gone. If raising prices or changing the product line up is what it takes, that is fine with me as long as I feel it is still good value for my money. At the end of the day whatever their expenses are, it has to be good value to us the customers, and finding that line between reasonable price and profitablity ain't easy especially with a niche product.
Reply #100 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:29 AM
it started w/ free vs. pro versions, then came wincustomize subscriptions, then came master skins, then came all the stupid focus on corporate sponsorships.
Free is easy when your small. Just about all of the things you mentioned pissed me off too...
And I am sure as hell not usually one to stand on their side, but...
The feature set has grown, the customer base has grown, and the overhead has grown.
Now granted I don't know what kind of margin they are pulling,and I am a firm believer in maximizing both sides of the customer benefit/business benefit equation, but they gotta do what they gotta do to stay in business. Now the decisions they have made along the line I may not agree with, but I do support the product and would hate to see it gone. If raising prices or changing the product line up is what it takes, that is fine with me as long as I feel it is still good value for my money. At the end of the day whatever their expenses are, it has to be good value to us the customers, and finding that line between reasonable price and profitablity ain't easy especially with a niche product.
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Reply #81 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:34 PM
I always considered this to be a community first. Yes the software has been a bit buggy (but it's a very good product) it's cheap and it works.
Here is another thought. Look at how many people are actually submitting content today, not many. I let my OD account expire because of all the work I put into it and never even got a Featured skin out of it. I am still a citizen 1 after 5 or 6 years.
Just different view on the subject.