Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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vStyler
Reply #62 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:14 AM
Reply #62 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:14 AM
One thing also that i would note is that the majority of people don't complain. I tend to see the same names cropping up time and again. In most of the Master skin threads the feedback is extremely positive. I feel most people appreciate and do not mind paying for the software.. and the skins. In a few years selling on Maxstyles I have yet to see a single solitary complaint about the sales of skins. Almost 100% positive and appreciative posts.
I am also curious to see what TSF is baking up.
I am also curious to see what TSF is baking up.
ZubaZ
Reply #63 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:17 AM
Reply #63 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:17 AM
Stardock's had a good run. For the longest time it had the feel of a bunch of friends that got together on the weekends and messed around with shit and gave it to the community to cover the costs. Rapid release of betas for their other friends to try out. No one cared about the bugs because they wanted to help. The price point made it easy too. No one was too concerned about a bug or two because you knew it'd be fixed sooner or later . . and for $20 . . who could get too upset?
But over the years Stardock seems to have become successful.
I think it's having to transition from the "shareware' attitude of the early 90s into a "real" business. I think the success (and more standard model) of the games side of the company has helped illustrate what other options are available.
Stardock isn't the same, the skinning community isn't the same, the market isn't the same. It's not possible to pretend we can continue doing things the same way.
I understand that SD needs to focus on the flagship products and charge more for them. I'm cool with that. [I will mourn for ObjectBar though. Can you open source that for the *next* Bargmann to pick up?] I'm also cool with charging for the very best skins.
As an aside . . a user based bug tracking database would make Stardock's life much easier. Why not spend a little more time with SmartException (or something like it) so it can be run from the desktop or the web and capture data, crashlog, user info, versions of everything, and a user note. Post to a database and work from there. Another idea . . collect the power users once in a while in IRC for a bitch session. Other than support (which is great; thanks Milksama, Seabass, highlander!) the community has gotten farther away from the devs. Can we bring them closer? I think your IRC sessions for your games have been interesting and useful. Even if most of the community doesn't attend, readign the logs could do a lot.
Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
But over the years Stardock seems to have become successful.
I think it's having to transition from the "shareware' attitude of the early 90s into a "real" business. I think the success (and more standard model) of the games side of the company has helped illustrate what other options are available.Stardock isn't the same, the skinning community isn't the same, the market isn't the same. It's not possible to pretend we can continue doing things the same way.
I understand that SD needs to focus on the flagship products and charge more for them. I'm cool with that. [I will mourn for ObjectBar though. Can you open source that for the *next* Bargmann to pick up?] I'm also cool with charging for the very best skins.
As an aside . . a user based bug tracking database would make Stardock's life much easier. Why not spend a little more time with SmartException (or something like it) so it can be run from the desktop or the web and capture data, crashlog, user info, versions of everything, and a user note. Post to a database and work from there. Another idea . . collect the power users once in a while in IRC for a bitch session. Other than support (which is great; thanks Milksama, Seabass, highlander!) the community has gotten farther away from the devs. Can we bring them closer? I think your IRC sessions for your games have been interesting and useful. Even if most of the community doesn't attend, readign the logs could do a lot.
Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island?
That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
Phoon
Reply #64 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:00 AM
Reply #64 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:00 AM
Well put Zubaz, however I still feel that quite a bit more could be done on Stardock's end to promote and or encourage new designers. On the otherhand, the general bad behavior and lousy attitude of a large quantity of end users is not encouraging either.
Hell, I have no effing clue as to the solution/cause. I'm just throwing out ideas.
What I do know is that for me, the fun of it left a long time ago after a round of ill behaved asshole remarks about one of my skins. I pretty much threw in the towel at that point.
Hell, I have no effing clue as to the solution/cause. I'm just throwing out ideas.
What I do know is that for me, the fun of it left a long time ago after a round of ill behaved asshole remarks about one of my skins. I pretty much threw in the towel at that point.
Island Dog
Reply #65 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:33 AM
I don't let the comments of people bother me regardless of what it is. The problem is with skin comments is many people don't even look at the skin, they see it's a WB skin and immediately trash it no matter how "good" it is. That is a side effect of skinning becoming "mainstream" and more popular. Unfortunately, that really won't go away as you will always have people who feel everything should be "free".
I for one would like to see you skin again (don't take that out of context!)
As far as encouraging new skinners, that is another tough one, but not impossible. SkinStudio 6 has made it much easier to create skins, and we have a great set of tutorials upcoming that will show people almost step by step how to make a skin. The WinCustomize Wiki is a great source of info and it's slowly being built up.
We can show someone "how" to make a WindowBlinds skin for instance, but the skinner has to have the initiative and skills to make a showcase skin.
Just to speak about WindowBlinds for a moment. One thing that always impressed me was the continuation of the $20 price point, a good upgrade policy, and the "open ear" from Stardock when it comes to things people want to see. It's hard to find a $20 application that does that. So now that the community is always evolving, where is the next step?
Does WindowBlinds stay the "same"?
Do we include more premium skins and increase the price?
A lot of questions can be asked, but how to proceed from here on is a difficult one to answer.
Reply #65 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:33 AM
What I do know is that for me, the fun of it left
a long time ago after a round of ill behaved asshole remarks about one
of my skins. I pretty much threw in the towel at that point.
I don't let the comments of people bother me regardless of what it is. The problem is with skin comments is many people don't even look at the skin, they see it's a WB skin and immediately trash it no matter how "good" it is. That is a side effect of skinning becoming "mainstream" and more popular. Unfortunately, that really won't go away as you will always have people who feel everything should be "free".
I for one would like to see you skin again (don't take that out of context!)
As far as encouraging new skinners, that is another tough one, but not impossible. SkinStudio 6 has made it much easier to create skins, and we have a great set of tutorials upcoming that will show people almost step by step how to make a skin. The WinCustomize Wiki is a great source of info and it's slowly being built up.
We can show someone "how" to make a WindowBlinds skin for instance, but the skinner has to have the initiative and skills to make a showcase skin.
Just to speak about WindowBlinds for a moment. One thing that always impressed me was the continuation of the $20 price point, a good upgrade policy, and the "open ear" from Stardock when it comes to things people want to see. It's hard to find a $20 application that does that. So now that the community is always evolving, where is the next step?
Does WindowBlinds stay the "same"?
Do we include more premium skins and increase the price?
A lot of questions can be asked, but how to proceed from here on is a difficult one to answer.
vStyler
Reply #66 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:17 AM
From a skinners point of view it would be to tighten up the program to where we weren't fighting to use it.
I LOVE WB... but its a definate love\hate relationship. Solidify it, you will get better skins. Free and Pay and most assuredly.. less complaining.
Reply #66 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:17 AM
So now that the community is always evolving, where is the next step?
From a skinners point of view it would be to tighten up the program to where we weren't fighting to use it.
I LOVE WB... but its a definate love\hate relationship. Solidify it, you will get better skins. Free and Pay and most assuredly.. less complaining.
kenwas
Reply #67 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:19 AM
Reply #67 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:19 AM
"The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users)."
To have the pricing of the product based on literally a handful of dedicated skinners seems absurd on the face of it. Price the product in accordance with the "user" market of today and be done with it. Give promotional copies to you ever you wish.
To have the pricing of the product based on literally a handful of dedicated skinners seems absurd on the face of it. Price the product in accordance with the "user" market of today and be done with it. Give promotional copies to you ever you wish.
SirSmiley
Reply #68 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:54 AM
Reply #68 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 11:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't MyColors the better option for users that just want to apply themes? Not the typical skinner.
As for the buck a download concept. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone actually making money at that price point...maybe (doubtful) if there where millions of actual downloads monthly.
Not sure where Stardock is taking MyColors or if it is exclusive to Stardock design but, an idea might be a MyColors specific gallery where all the skins are commercial and Master Skinners and individuals/businesses that satisfy some type of criteria can submit their skins. Just a thought.
As for the buck a download concept. I'd be hard pressed to see anyone actually making money at that price point...maybe (doubtful) if there where millions of actual downloads monthly.
Not sure where Stardock is taking MyColors or if it is exclusive to Stardock design but, an idea might be a MyColors specific gallery where all the skins are commercial and Master Skinners and individuals/businesses that satisfy some type of criteria can submit their skins. Just a thought.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #69 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:29 PM
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
Reply #69 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:29 PM
Price the product in accordance with the "user" market of today and be done with it.
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
ZubaZ
Reply #70 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:39 PM
Marketing can drive volume sales and a small price boost (because somtimes being priced too low makes your app seem cheap) might be the right commercial thing to do.
I can see it now . . "From the publisher of Sins of a Solar Empire and the developers of Galactic Civilization, a new way to make your PC your own: Windowblinds!"
I've often wondered how most people got either to WindowBlinds or WC? Is it through the "I want a new wallpaper for my PC?" or something else. I got hooked back with OS/2 fo rthe desktop apps. But it seems that Stardock has been niche almost by design. When is the right time to go after the greater market and make them skinners (or at least skin users)?
Reply #70 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:39 PM
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
But maybe the masses are finally ready for a mass-produced Windowblinds. 
Marketing can drive volume sales and a small price boost (because somtimes being priced too low makes your app seem cheap) might be the right commercial thing to do.I can see it now . . "From the publisher of Sins of a Solar Empire and the developers of Galactic Civilization, a new way to make your PC your own: Windowblinds!"
I've often wondered how most people got either to WindowBlinds or WC? Is it through the "I want a new wallpaper for my PC?" or something else. I got hooked back with OS/2 fo rthe desktop apps. But it seems that Stardock has been niche almost by design. When is the right time to go after the greater market and make them skinners (or at least skin users)?
kenwas
Reply #71 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:45 PM
I really wouldn't know Craig as there aren't really any comps out there for comparison. Unless I am mis-reading the quote I used from Brad's statement, he seems to think is should be priced at a 100% increase($40) from the current pricing of $20. Whether this was at the current distribution method or reflective of packaging and store distribution I do not know. Perhaps he will enlighten us.
Reply #71 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:45 PM
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
I really wouldn't know Craig as there aren't really any comps out there for comparison. Unless I am mis-reading the quote I used from Brad's statement, he seems to think is should be priced at a 100% increase($40) from the current pricing of $20. Whether this was at the current distribution method or reflective of packaging and store distribution I do not know. Perhaps he will enlighten us.
Frogboy
Reply #72 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:47 PM
Reply #72 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:47 PM
Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
Sleep.
Frogboy
Reply #73 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM
Reply #73 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM
I believe it is. If Stardock started putting the software on store shelves, packaging, distribution, etc, would drive the price up. This is part of the reason the software is cheaper becuase they don't have all that overhead to deal with. (I beleieve)
WindowBlinds was at retail. But it wasn't worth the effort versus the sales (we sell a lot more copies digitally).
Also, very very few software programs these days are $20. The only reason WindowBlinds has been able to say at $20 is thanks to the skinners and people who help beta test it.
Skinners effectively subsidized WindowBlinds so that others could get it cheaper. And skinners often get deplorable treatment from some of the new generation of "entitled consumers".
ZubaZ
Reply #74 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:53 PM
Reply #74 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:53 PM
Brad . . What's the most important thing to you right now in regards to Stardock? Growth? Innovation? The community? A private island? That is what is going to determine the next few years. I'll be along for the ride.
Sleep.
At least I can assume you read my whole comment. That's more than Bill Gates has ever done. Sleep.
eieio
Reply #75 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:04 PM
Although this has been mentioned a few times in this thread and the other related thread, as well as in the past, I get the feeling it will be largely ignored ... again.
Reply #75 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:04 PM
Feedback on products: I have seen this go several ways, I have posted numerous posts on DX problems, bug, feature requests, some of them were fixed in days (hell in hours on 1) and other just get ignored. And at some point you get tired of bringing up the same problems over and over, so you stop giving feedback. I'm sure that has happened to all of us. I know this happened to me with CursorFX, it keep messing up over and over, I posted on this, gave people the feedback, and the only response i got (from sd and wd people) was to un-install it all, and re-install it. When i did that and it still didnt fix things, and posted on it still doing the same thing (moving the cursor UNDER the menus) I get told that i need to uninstall again. So we give up. If you want the feedback, have a dedicated place for it. I think thats the main issue. There are too many places here to post on DX for example. Multiple places to post, if we had 1 forum location for each product called BUGs and Feature Requests 1 for each product. That would be somewhere that SD personell need to monitor it not just WC Admins. This could help a lot. Instead of having dozens (or hundreds) of posts on the same issues all over the place.
Although this has been mentioned a few times in this thread and the other related thread, as well as in the past, I get the feeling it will be largely ignored ... again.
killajosh
Reply #77 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:16 PM
I think that may be a little drastic. I'm more than content with the FREE skins I find on WC. I love the 3 skins SD has put out this year. I have even purchased a couple of master skins. No complaints from me. I think SD is doing a great job, and if I have to suffer through a couple of glitches here and there, well.....so be it. Anything is better than friggin' Windows blue!!!
People need to realize that SD doesn't HAVE to support WC, doesn't HAVE to hire skinners to produce quality skins for the general public (free-of-charge, nonetheless), doesn't HAVE to do any of the things they do OUTSIDE OF SELLING SOFTWARE.
Reply #77 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:16 PM
But the real message here is: If people are going to treat Stardock like it's just a purely for-profit corporation rather than a community driven company of like minded users, then we can do that. We can eliminate all the marginally profitable programs in a swoop, raise our prices, hire a few more QA and support people and call it a day.
I think that may be a little drastic. I'm more than content with the FREE skins I find on WC. I love the 3 skins SD has put out this year. I have even purchased a couple of master skins. No complaints from me. I think SD is doing a great job, and if I have to suffer through a couple of glitches here and there, well.....so be it. Anything is better than friggin' Windows blue!!!
People need to realize that SD doesn't HAVE to support WC, doesn't HAVE to hire skinners to produce quality skins for the general public (free-of-charge, nonetheless), doesn't HAVE to do any of the things they do OUTSIDE OF SELLING SOFTWARE.
Frogboy
Reply #78 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:02 PM
Reply #78 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:02 PM
Although this has been mentioned a few times in this thread and the other related thread, as well as in the past, I get the feeling it will be largely ignored ... again.
No, I think one of the things that's going to result from this is a better way to communicate with beta testers and to reward them.
RomanDA
Reply #79 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:08 PM
sounds cool to me... where do i sign up.. oh wait.. i think i have.. LOL
Reply #79 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:08 PM
No, I think one of the things that's going to result from this is a better way to communicate with beta testers and to reward them.
sounds cool to me... where do i sign up.. oh wait.. i think i have.. LOL
ZubaZ
Reply #80 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:32 PM
Reply #80 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:32 PM
sounds cool to me... where do i sign up.. oh wait.. i think i have.. LOL
Now go break something!
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Reply #61 Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:59 AM
Half-baked? Interesting....