Self promoting premium skins in the forums.
Friday, November 16, 2007 by NightTrainthedark | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Continuation of the other thread.
The issue at hand was summed up by Zoomba in the other thread.
The thread is about what is and isn't OK to post on WinCustomize; forums, news, skins etc. that might border on the edge of unacceptable advertising or spam. Do Masters get a bit of leeway? Can non-masters sell their stuff on outside sites and advertise it here in the forums? What are the limits? What's fair to both the community at large, and the skinners who have contributed free work for years?
I feel that now is the time to discuss this as a proactive approach will save some trouble down the road.
The issue at hand was summed up by Zoomba in the other thread.
The thread is about what is and isn't OK to post on WinCustomize; forums, news, skins etc. that might border on the edge of unacceptable advertising or spam. Do Masters get a bit of leeway? Can non-masters sell their stuff on outside sites and advertise it here in the forums? What are the limits? What's fair to both the community at large, and the skinners who have contributed free work for years?
I feel that now is the time to discuss this as a proactive approach will save some trouble down the road.
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WOM
Reply #2 Friday, November 16, 2007 8:55 PM
Reply #2 Friday, November 16, 2007 8:55 PM
I'am currious to know if people can sell on their site and post the ad here on WC. 
ZubaZ
Reply #3 Friday, November 16, 2007 8:59 PM
Reply #3 Friday, November 16, 2007 8:59 PM
I support all promotion of skins. Here or there and everywhere.
If Joe Master or Joe Brycewall want to try their hand at marketing in a way that doesn't violate the TOS (specifically section 'm' : "Interfere with another member's use and enjoyment of the Service or another entity's use and enjoyment of similar services") more power to them. The market and moderators will handle any "issues".
Some guild lines might be nice but precedent works well enough too.
My opinion as a WC subscriber.
If Joe Master or Joe Brycewall want to try their hand at marketing in a way that doesn't violate the TOS (specifically section 'm' : "Interfere with another member's use and enjoyment of the Service or another entity's use and enjoyment of similar services") more power to them. The market and moderators will handle any "issues".
Some guild lines might be nice but precedent works well enough too.
My opinion as a WC subscriber.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #4 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:10 PM
Reply #4 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:10 PM
Go here if you have anything more to ad. This thread should have been removed when the other was unlocked. 
WWW Link
WWW Link
sViz
Reply #5 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:11 PM
Reply #5 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:11 PM
I didn't get to see Z71's post before it was altered; are we talking about work that is not uploaded to this site but is promoted here?
ZubaZ
Reply #6 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:12 PM
Reply #6 Friday, November 16, 2007 9:12 PM
I didn't get to see Z71's post before it was altered; are we talking about work that is not uploaded to this site but is promoted here?
Yes.
sViz
Reply #7 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:23 PM
Reply #7 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:23 PM
Hmm, it's a slippery slope.
I guess I'd be okay with a long-standing community member with the rank of Master promoting their off-site work here. It might also be in how it is promoted; i.e. is it more of an ad than a friendly notice to the community?
I guess I'd be okay with a long-standing community member with the rank of Master promoting their off-site work here. It might also be in how it is promoted; i.e. is it more of an ad than a friendly notice to the community?
vStyler
Reply #8 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:26 PM
64 million dollar question.. and well put sViz
Reply #8 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:26 PM
is it more of an ad than a friendly notice to the community?
64 million dollar question.. and well put sViz
killajosh
Reply #9 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:32 PM
Reply #9 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:32 PM
I'm not a skinner, so I hope you don't mind my 2-cents worth. I see no harm in promoting off-site work by master skinners. What I don't want to see is the forums become some kind of "flea-market" or yard sale advetisement for anyone who thinks they can skin.
Once again, just my 2-cents worth (that's mexican money, 2 centavos, or .002 american cents... I'm cheap like that
)
Once again, just my 2-cents worth (that's mexican money, 2 centavos, or .002 american cents... I'm cheap like that
)
vStyler
Reply #10 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:52 PM
Reply #10 Friday, November 16, 2007 10:52 PM
Really if you think about it quality of product would soon weed out that kind of problem... that doesnt concern me, what concerned me initially was I assumed it would have been unacceptable to Stardock as frankly it would indeed cut into their profits.. via their bandwidth and patronage. More traffic to outside sites equates to less Master skin sales.. from what I have read to today It seems for some reason I'm clueless about that.. that is not an issue?
I for one will stand by my guns and even if it is instituted as an accepted practice I will not, I repeat, will not post articles with skins for sale in the WC forums unless a specific category was put in place for that ( wont happen ) If it was DA.. sure.. the place is a mess..My subscription will soon expire there and I have no desire to re-up it.
I call these forums home, I like it here and I'm not going to use it to blatently pander to folks that are here to read up on day to day skinning activity. Forums should be forums and a store a store. We all knew this topic was going to come up sooner or later and I'm glad it did. I hope that by not participating in direct promotion of pay skins in the forums that others will decide not to as well, I've always stood by what I believe is a strong conviction and I don't see any reason to abandon that now for a few more bucks.
WC has afforded me an enormous opportunity to better myself and I have done everything in my power to jump at the chance, I hope that my work can speak far louder than my words and that in the end doing the right thing (IMO) will pay off.
Lastly I apologize to Z71 for being harsh early on.. it just struck a cord with me. I assumed you were trying to be sneaky when in fact you probably hadn't thought into it as much as I have.
I for one will stand by my guns and even if it is instituted as an accepted practice I will not, I repeat, will not post articles with skins for sale in the WC forums unless a specific category was put in place for that ( wont happen ) If it was DA.. sure.. the place is a mess..My subscription will soon expire there and I have no desire to re-up it.
I call these forums home, I like it here and I'm not going to use it to blatently pander to folks that are here to read up on day to day skinning activity. Forums should be forums and a store a store. We all knew this topic was going to come up sooner or later and I'm glad it did. I hope that by not participating in direct promotion of pay skins in the forums that others will decide not to as well, I've always stood by what I believe is a strong conviction and I don't see any reason to abandon that now for a few more bucks.
WC has afforded me an enormous opportunity to better myself and I have done everything in my power to jump at the chance, I hope that my work can speak far louder than my words and that in the end doing the right thing (IMO) will pay off.
Lastly I apologize to Z71 for being harsh early on.. it just struck a cord with me. I assumed you were trying to be sneaky when in fact you probably hadn't thought into it as much as I have.
sViz
Reply #11 Friday, November 16, 2007 11:48 PM
Reply #11 Friday, November 16, 2007 11:48 PM
vStyler, you mean if you were ever to stop uploading here (perish the thought!), you wouldn't drop us a line on what your latest and greatest is at the moment?
I think it's great to have the Masters be a big part of the community as well as keeping their work on site, too (as with most of your work), but if for some reason a Master couldn't/didn't upload here anymore I don't think that should be the last we ever hear of them. So long as they are an active part of the community I think any promotion of their work would be of an informative nature rather than a BUY BUY BUY! nature. If we didn't hear from them ever, except when they wanted to promote their skin, then I'd say something was.....fishy.
I guess anyone would feel...self-conscious about self-promotion but I think being a Master might give you more entitlement to that. As I understood the terms of being a master, there is alot of trust that goes into promoting someone to that rank; trust that they have the best interest of the community at heart rather than purely selfish motives. Trust that they strive for excellence and not just the quickest and largest download count. From the Masters I've seen/heard from the most (you included), they each have those qualities. I would hope people like that wouldn't try to shamelessly take advantage of the Master rank or the WC community.
Of course, there's no guarantee on that, which is why I still think it's a slippery slope. It may be easier to give hard-line 'you may not promote off-site work here' and close the case, but if it is a categorical 'yes, you can promote your off-site work here' there definitely needs to be some ground rules or guidelines. It is way too easy for an ill-intentioned person to take advantage and go over the top with spam.
I think it's great to have the Masters be a big part of the community as well as keeping their work on site, too (as with most of your work), but if for some reason a Master couldn't/didn't upload here anymore I don't think that should be the last we ever hear of them. So long as they are an active part of the community I think any promotion of their work would be of an informative nature rather than a BUY BUY BUY! nature. If we didn't hear from them ever, except when they wanted to promote their skin, then I'd say something was.....fishy.
I guess anyone would feel...self-conscious about self-promotion but I think being a Master might give you more entitlement to that. As I understood the terms of being a master, there is alot of trust that goes into promoting someone to that rank; trust that they have the best interest of the community at heart rather than purely selfish motives. Trust that they strive for excellence and not just the quickest and largest download count. From the Masters I've seen/heard from the most (you included), they each have those qualities. I would hope people like that wouldn't try to shamelessly take advantage of the Master rank or the WC community.
Of course, there's no guarantee on that, which is why I still think it's a slippery slope. It may be easier to give hard-line 'you may not promote off-site work here' and close the case, but if it is a categorical 'yes, you can promote your off-site work here' there definitely needs to be some ground rules or guidelines. It is way too easy for an ill-intentioned person to take advantage and go over the top with spam.
ZubaZ
Reply #12 Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:20 AM
Reply #12 Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:20 AM
It is way too easy for an ill-intentioned person to take advantage and go over the top with spam.
It is unlikely that someone like that would ever make Master (which I think you intimated earlier in your post; "trust").
sViz
Reply #13 Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:50 AM
Ah, but that's only if the hypothetical rules would limit promoting off-site work to Masters; which might actually be a good guidline but might rub some people the wrong way.
Reply #13 Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:50 AM
It is unlikely that someone like that would ever make Master
Ah, but that's only if the hypothetical rules would limit promoting off-site work to Masters; which might actually be a good guidline but might rub some people the wrong way.
killajosh
Reply #14 Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:55 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only skinners allowed to sell their wares masters? If so, why should that change if promoting off-site work is allowed? It wouldn't bother me (tho I am just one grain of sand in the WC community). The way I see it, only masters SHOULD be allowed to sell/promote skins on this site. If it's for the betterment of the community, then wouldn't a majority of the members understand?
Reply #14 Saturday, November 17, 2007 2:55 AM
Ah, but that's only if the hypothetical rules would limit promoting off-site work to Masters; which might actually be a good guidline but might rub some people the wrong way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only skinners allowed to sell their wares masters? If so, why should that change if promoting off-site work is allowed? It wouldn't bother me (tho I am just one grain of sand in the WC community). The way I see it, only masters SHOULD be allowed to sell/promote skins on this site. If it's for the betterment of the community, then wouldn't a majority of the members understand?
PoSmedley
Reply #15 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:19 AM
Reply #15 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:19 AM
Self-promoting doesn't bother me. If the quality of the skin is good and people like it, as a Master skin it really shouldn't 'need' promoting. The Masters have their own space on the front page for their top skins, to boot. But if someone feels the need to promote it, I really don't see a problem with a 'single' thread for that skin. In the end, folks are only going to buy it if 'they' like it.
I do have a problem with Master skins being promoted on other sites 'before' they are posted here. I look at being made 'Master' as a huge privilege. I think WC should hold the Master's to similar guidelines as they do when running certain contests. It should appear here first and only here for a set amount of time, after which they can release it on their site or wherever they chose. I don't know, maybe they can make more on it releasing it on their own site first (no percentage taken? I don't know) but I think that besides having to earn the title of Master, having them post here first should be part of keeping that title. It makes sense to me because of how it was all addressed from the start, that WC was 'giving back to the skinners' and that the percantage WC was taking on each sale was going back into running the site.
I do have a problem with Master skins being promoted on other sites 'before' they are posted here. I look at being made 'Master' as a huge privilege. I think WC should hold the Master's to similar guidelines as they do when running certain contests. It should appear here first and only here for a set amount of time, after which they can release it on their site or wherever they chose. I don't know, maybe they can make more on it releasing it on their own site first (no percentage taken? I don't know) but I think that besides having to earn the title of Master, having them post here first should be part of keeping that title. It makes sense to me because of how it was all addressed from the start, that WC was 'giving back to the skinners' and that the percantage WC was taking on each sale was going back into running the site.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #16 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:35 AM
Reply #16 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:35 AM
Why would anybody ever post a skin in the Master Skin section again if they are allowed to advertise?
Stardock has everything to lose and nothing to gain.
Stardock has everything to lose and nothing to gain.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #17 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:38 AM
Reply #17 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:38 AM
I wish I could edit the thread to title to "Offsite premium skins".
vStyler
Reply #18 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:44 AM
I wouldn't
ditto
Reply #18 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:44 AM
vStyler, you mean if you were ever to stop uploading here (perish the thought!),
I wouldn't
Why would anybody ever post a skin in the Master Skin section again if they are allowed to advertise?
ditto
PoSmedley
Reply #19 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:45 AM
NT, don't know if that was in response to me..but incase..I meant that I didn't have a problem if they promoted a skin they posted 'here'...not on another site.
Reply #19 Saturday, November 17, 2007 7:45 AM
Why would anybody ever post a skin in the Master Skin section again if they are allowed to advertise?
NT, don't know if that was in response to me..but incase..I meant that I didn't have a problem if they promoted a skin they posted 'here'...not on another site.
vStyler
Reply #20 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:09 AM
Nothing wrong with that at all.
Reply #20 Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:09 AM
if they promoted a skin they posted 'here'...not on another site.
Nothing wrong with that at all.
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Reply #1 Friday, November 16, 2007 8:44 PM