XP's Success Isn't Vista's Failure
Saturday, September 29, 2007 by Philly0381 | Discussion: Personal Computing
eWeek Microsoft Watch at times seems to be Microsoft's best friend, if you know what I mean. I've learned to read stuff on the internet much like I listen to talk radio. Read it or listen to it and then if I'm interested check it out.
Microsoft's decision to let OEMs sell Windows XP for six additional months is the right move. But continued XP demand isn't a knock against Windows Vista.
To that statement I say, Yeah, right!
Vista has gotten a bad rap, and Microsoft is partly to blame. In late 2003, Microsoft touted all the great—and, yes, truly innovative—features coming in Windows XP's successor. Later, Microsoft dumped most of the best stuff, failing to deliver on many Vista promises.
If Microsoft is only partly to blame, who gets the rest of the credit, who else is responsible?
WWW Link
Microsoft's decision to let OEMs sell Windows XP for six additional months is the right move. But continued XP demand isn't a knock against Windows Vista.
To that statement I say, Yeah, right!
Vista has gotten a bad rap, and Microsoft is partly to blame. In late 2003, Microsoft touted all the great—and, yes, truly innovative—features coming in Windows XP's successor. Later, Microsoft dumped most of the best stuff, failing to deliver on many Vista promises.
If Microsoft is only partly to blame, who gets the rest of the credit, who else is responsible?
WWW Link
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starkers
Reply #42 Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:22 PM
Sorry, but that's not the way I found it....yeah, surfing the net was simple, but too many times I found stuff that only ran from command lines, etc...or downloaded apps didn't have an exe type install but had to be assembled, sort of like piece by piece and put in place via command like prompts.
For someone without command prompt type experience, Ubuntu is somewhere one can easily get lost/confused. Yeah, it may have come a ways from earlier editions, but it still has a way to go before it can be considered a mainstream OS.
Oh well, I'll continue dual booting XP & Vista until it looks like it's more manageable for non-geeks like me.
Reply #42 Saturday, September 29, 2007 9:22 PM
Ubuntu 7.04 basically works "out of the box" with many systems;
Sorry, but that's not the way I found it....yeah, surfing the net was simple, but too many times I found stuff that only ran from command lines, etc...or downloaded apps didn't have an exe type install but had to be assembled, sort of like piece by piece and put in place via command like prompts.
For someone without command prompt type experience, Ubuntu is somewhere one can easily get lost/confused. Yeah, it may have come a ways from earlier editions, but it still has a way to go before it can be considered a mainstream OS.
Oh well, I'll continue dual booting XP & Vista until it looks like it's more manageable for non-geeks like me.
Leo the Lion
Reply #43 Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:39 AM
No, they have not spent billions the public have done it for them. In fact they beta tested prior to launch and now all those who have purchased Vista are still beta testing it for them. Fancy paying 150 bucks or more to a company to test their product. Does that happen in any other industry? I'll say it again - Vista was 'half baked' when it was launched and still should be in the Microsoft oven, cooking, today. And when it comes to driver and software issues made by third parties can I ask a question. When were those third parties given access to the final release version to allow them to either upgrade or change their product so it would work on Vista?
Reply #43 Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:39 AM
Not in my opinion. It's just plain old fact. Microsoft wouldn't spend Billions creating an OS that would be considered the next Windows ME. You can't blame them for poorly done drivers by 3rd party developers. It's like blaming a car dealership for you getting in an accident while driving drunk.
No, they have not spent billions the public have done it for them. In fact they beta tested prior to launch and now all those who have purchased Vista are still beta testing it for them. Fancy paying 150 bucks or more to a company to test their product. Does that happen in any other industry? I'll say it again - Vista was 'half baked' when it was launched and still should be in the Microsoft oven, cooking, today. And when it comes to driver and software issues made by third parties can I ask a question. When were those third parties given access to the final release version to allow them to either upgrade or change their product so it would work on Vista?
Leo the Lion
Reply #44 Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Reply #44 Sunday, September 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Here's an interesting piece on this subject matter that is worth reading. I don't agree with all the sentiments but it's worth a read.
WWW Link
WWW Link
MonkeyGroin
Reply #45 Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:20 AM
Reply #45 Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:20 AM
Let's face it,MicroSh*t has been ripping people off for years. Windows 98 was what Windows 95 was supposed to be, Windows Xp is what Me was supposed to be. Me was one of the crappiest operating systems to ever come out, with its memory leakage problems to name just a few consumers should have gotten a rebate if they got stuck with it. Now Vista comes out and you know the next operating system to come out will really be the fix for it. All the years they had working on Vista it should not have all these compatability problems. Microsoft has been passing shoddy programs for years and now people are starting to finally realize just what a terrible company they really are. They were good in their early days since most of what they came out with was stolen from the people who really created great programs and their way to deal with it was to keep you in court so long you just settled with them just to get your money. Now that they are doing it on their own it shows what kind of company they really are.
whatwhere
Reply #46 Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:26 AM
be glad you didn't..ME was THEE biggest POS OS's you will ever have..i ran that for around 10 months and let me tell ya it was one of THEE most biggest,hugest piece of shite OS's you will ever run...constant BSOD's,constant screw ups,constant lock up's ETC i had to litterally nuke the drive once and sometimes twice a week...it was that bad...and the only thing i used to do on it,was play video games...98 was millions of times better then ME..LOL 95 was better then ME.the only thing good about ME was the system restore...though you had to reboot your system when you disbaled it where as XP and vista you can disable it and not have to reboot and if you got nailed with a virus ME's system restore would not allow your antivirus product to delete the virus where as XP and vista will.
Reply #46 Sunday, September 30, 2007 1:26 AM
Never used Windows ME
be glad you didn't..ME was THEE biggest POS OS's you will ever have..i ran that for around 10 months and let me tell ya it was one of THEE most biggest,hugest piece of shite OS's you will ever run...constant BSOD's,constant screw ups,constant lock up's ETC i had to litterally nuke the drive once and sometimes twice a week...it was that bad...and the only thing i used to do on it,was play video games...98 was millions of times better then ME..LOL 95 was better then ME.the only thing good about ME was the system restore...though you had to reboot your system when you disbaled it where as XP and vista you can disable it and not have to reboot and if you got nailed with a virus ME's system restore would not allow your antivirus product to delete the virus where as XP and vista will.
starkers
Reply #47 Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:36 AM
Reply #47 Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:36 AM
I really need to get out more....the anti-MS sentiment/Vista bashing has me feeling somewhat depressed....Vista is doomed, my copy will be obsolete before I get my money's worth and I'll need a replacement cos XP 'll be in pretty much the same boat by then.
I need some air.
I need some air.
aufisch
Reply #48 Sunday, September 30, 2007 4:42 AM
Reply #48 Sunday, September 30, 2007 4:42 AM
I found that a large proportion (not all of course) of the people who cry: 'Vista is crap', are people who got their version of Vista through a p2p-Network. Pirated copies of Vista have been around since the beta-versions, and many of those are still being distributed as the real thing. There are also tons of "customized" and "light" Versions available. I believe Vista was probably the first OS to be pirated so heavily at such an early stage.
During the time I contemplated buying a new computer I did some research about Vista, and I was absolutely stumped on how many idiots out there tried to load their pirated 64bit beta-version onto their Pentium III systems. - Guess what, Vista didn't work and was of course "crap" - buh-huu
People who have bought an XP machine, should run XP or upgrade their PC to be Vista compliant.
One would have thought that should be clear by now. After all, it was already the same back when Win95 came out. My old "designed for Windows for Workstations 3.11" - laptop never ran really good with Win95, even though I spent an arm and a leg to upgrade the Memory to a whooping 16Mb.
Much the same can be said for the so called "new"-systems which are obviously still available through some 'extremely cheap' supermarket chains. That's just really old hardware, which is now sold off/cleared through those chains, and was never really designed to go with Vista.
It is of course not the customers fault if those shops then throw 'Vista home basic' on it, just to make it look like as if the hardware were actually new.
And it is surely understanding if the computer savvy but cash-strapped customer who buys such older "new" systems then insists of running his new box with the OS it was originally designed for; WinXP.
During the time I contemplated buying a new computer I did some research about Vista, and I was absolutely stumped on how many idiots out there tried to load their pirated 64bit beta-version onto their Pentium III systems. - Guess what, Vista didn't work and was of course "crap" - buh-huu
People who have bought an XP machine, should run XP or upgrade their PC to be Vista compliant.
One would have thought that should be clear by now. After all, it was already the same back when Win95 came out. My old "designed for Windows for Workstations 3.11" - laptop never ran really good with Win95, even though I spent an arm and a leg to upgrade the Memory to a whooping 16Mb.
Much the same can be said for the so called "new"-systems which are obviously still available through some 'extremely cheap' supermarket chains. That's just really old hardware, which is now sold off/cleared through those chains, and was never really designed to go with Vista.
It is of course not the customers fault if those shops then throw 'Vista home basic' on it, just to make it look like as if the hardware were actually new.
And it is surely understanding if the computer savvy but cash-strapped customer who buys such older "new" systems then insists of running his new box with the OS it was originally designed for; WinXP.
Gideon MacLeish
Reply #49 Sunday, September 30, 2007 6:14 AM
Not as long as Macs cost twice as much as a PC, in my opinion.
EX: I am buying a new laptop. The $1200 starting price for an iBook is too rich for my blood.
Besides, as long as Mac stays completely proprietary, with an extremely limited set of vendors, I don't think most Americans will give them serious consideration.
starkers,
You run a wider variety of programs than most EU's, though. Yes, Linux has limitations. So does Microsoft, actually, it's just that we've become so used to working in an MS environment that we do not notice them. I will agree with Excalpius that there is more that needs to be done (but this is a good time to do it), however, I remain firm in my contention that Linux requires no more of a learning curve than Vista, we just tolerate it with Vista because it's what we know.
LOL starkers.
The anti MS sentiment is, in my opinion, good for the industry. If people consider options besides Microsoft, then ultimately it will make their developers work harder. And that benefits everyone.
aufisch,
Yes, many who cry "Vista is crap" are running it on substandard machines. Can't argue there. I wouldn't, for instance, even consider it on my main home box (Dell gx260, 1.8Ghz P4 Processor, 1GB RAM, 256MB video) because, while it technically meets the system requirements, it's not powerful enough to run it with the other apps I want in an optimal environment.
But there are many legitimate arguments as well. One of the games I cannot play on Vista, for instance, is "Rise of Nations". I'm not about to throw out all of my software simply because Microsoft doesn't like to create backwards compatibility.
As I said above, I believe this debate is good. It is productive. Microsoft won't allow itself to fade into oblivion, and if end users seriously consider jumping ship, it will give the boys in Redmond a much needed heads up. Microsoft is not listening to the consumer because, historically, they haven't had to, and it's about time they did start listening. Because while Grandpa Joe, who has stuck with his faithful Pentium computer running Windows 95, may not be the market they are after, he does represent a portion of it that shouldn't be ignored entirely.
Reply #49 Sunday, September 30, 2007 6:14 AM
Since most people have to buy a new computer to use Vista, MS has given Apple a terrible opportunity to capitalize on this.
Not as long as Macs cost twice as much as a PC, in my opinion.
EX: I am buying a new laptop. The $1200 starting price for an iBook is too rich for my blood.
Besides, as long as Mac stays completely proprietary, with an extremely limited set of vendors, I don't think most Americans will give them serious consideration.
Sorry, but that's not the way I found it....yeah, surfing the net was simple, but too many times I found stuff that only ran from command lines, etc...or downloaded apps didn't have an exe type install but had to be assembled, sort of like piece by piece and put in place via command like prompts.
starkers,
You run a wider variety of programs than most EU's, though. Yes, Linux has limitations. So does Microsoft, actually, it's just that we've become so used to working in an MS environment that we do not notice them. I will agree with Excalpius that there is more that needs to be done (but this is a good time to do it), however, I remain firm in my contention that Linux requires no more of a learning curve than Vista, we just tolerate it with Vista because it's what we know.
I really need to get out more....the anti-MS sentiment/Vista bashing has me feeling somewhat depressed....Vista is doomed, my copy will be obsolete before I get my money's worth and I'll need a replacement cos XP 'll be in pretty much the same boat by then.
I need some air.
I need some air.
LOL starkers.
The anti MS sentiment is, in my opinion, good for the industry. If people consider options besides Microsoft, then ultimately it will make their developers work harder. And that benefits everyone.
aufisch,
Yes, many who cry "Vista is crap" are running it on substandard machines. Can't argue there. I wouldn't, for instance, even consider it on my main home box (Dell gx260, 1.8Ghz P4 Processor, 1GB RAM, 256MB video) because, while it technically meets the system requirements, it's not powerful enough to run it with the other apps I want in an optimal environment.
But there are many legitimate arguments as well. One of the games I cannot play on Vista, for instance, is "Rise of Nations". I'm not about to throw out all of my software simply because Microsoft doesn't like to create backwards compatibility.
As I said above, I believe this debate is good. It is productive. Microsoft won't allow itself to fade into oblivion, and if end users seriously consider jumping ship, it will give the boys in Redmond a much needed heads up. Microsoft is not listening to the consumer because, historically, they haven't had to, and it's about time they did start listening. Because while Grandpa Joe, who has stuck with his faithful Pentium computer running Windows 95, may not be the market they are after, he does represent a portion of it that shouldn't be ignored entirely.
GH33DA
Reply #50 Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:40 AM
I dont like Vista
I have a dual boot..that may as well be a single boot.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Reply #50 Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:40 AM
I dont like Vista
I have a dual boot..that may as well be a single boot.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
starkers
Reply #51 Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:05 AM
You're probably right, but it's all a bit late for my purchase of Vista
just when I was getting to like it, too 
and now it's obsolete...BOO, HOO, HOO SOB, SOB.
Yeah, I am disappointed Vista hasn't fared better, but the getting out/needing some air was more to do with my daily constitutional than any woes concerning PC's or OSes.
Thing is, I'm happy with what I've got, and hopefully the industry will have resolved the various issues by the time I need to replace my current OSes....Vista AND XP.
That it is...it's debates like these that come to the attention of MS, Apple and Linux, etc, and while I may be happy with what I have right now, there are no defining boundaries in the computing world that say there's no room for improvement.
Reply #51 Sunday, September 30, 2007 9:05 AM
The anti MS sentiment is, in my opinion, good for the industry. If people consider options besides Microsoft, then ultimately it will make their developers work harder. And that benefits everyone.
You're probably right, but it's all a bit late for my purchase of Vista
just when I was getting to like it, too 
and now it's obsolete...BOO, HOO, HOO SOB, SOB.Yeah, I am disappointed Vista hasn't fared better, but the getting out/needing some air was more to do with my daily constitutional than any woes concerning PC's or OSes.
Thing is, I'm happy with what I've got, and hopefully the industry will have resolved the various issues by the time I need to replace my current OSes....Vista AND XP.
As I said above, I believe this debate is good.
That it is...it's debates like these that come to the attention of MS, Apple and Linux, etc, and while I may be happy with what I have right now, there are no defining boundaries in the computing world that say there's no room for improvement.
Philly0381
Reply #52 Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:01 AM
Reply #52 Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:01 AM
Onec again, with a gentle nudge, I use Microsoft software and probably will untill something shows that it's up to the challenge. Some will say Apple is it, others will say Linux in the way to go. We all make a choice and move on.
The intent was not to bash Microsoft, it was to point out more the swaying in the breeze that they have come to. When it comes down to it they are just another big company wanting the consumer dollar.
The intent was not to bash Microsoft, it was to point out more the swaying in the breeze that they have come to. When it comes down to it they are just another big company wanting the consumer dollar.
whatwhere
Reply #53 Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:17 AM
Reply #53 Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:17 AM
but then again people must realize is that when ANY new OS comes out which includes and does not exclude windows,linux,unix,solaris ETC some people will like it some will not...the reason being is the new OS has more features and a completely different look plus it's got more security features some people will like these feature some will not, some people will love those features some will not.XP got good when SP1 was released and got greater when SP2 was released.vista is going to be the same way,when SP1 comes out it will be alot geater then what it is now.though i do agree they should of left all the "goodies" in there..and for ultimate users they should give us more since we paid what? 500 on over for the OS.as far as the UAC goes they should of did some type of "trusted platform" where if you install a program that has been from a company known to add malicious code such as spyware,adware ETC. it would decline the install..but company that are known NOT to add malicious code would be allowed to install.and if you go to a website that has malicious code that tries to self install the "trusted platform" will not allow it or will not allow you to on that site.
Leo the Lion
Reply #54 Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:30 AM
Reply #54 Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:30 AM
Microsoft has got to listen this time. Forget the past. They need to set some goals on Vista and get to work otherwise they will have problems. Gates needs to get with his top men and start repairing some of the damage NOW. Goals should be as follows:-
1. Get SP1 out as soon as possible but only when it has been fully tried and tested. The initial feedback I have heard from testers is very good.
2. Get with some of the third party software and driver makers who are still having problems and help them.
3. Get those extra's and more to Ultimate users like they promised. No-one likes to be cheated on and this is causing a lot of customer 'bad feeling' and unneeded bad publicy for Microsoft.
Address these 'pretty big' issues and they should start winning the masses over and when I say masses I also mean the area that is most important to them too - the business sector - because at the moment most businesses will not touch it with a barge pole.
1. Get SP1 out as soon as possible but only when it has been fully tried and tested. The initial feedback I have heard from testers is very good.
2. Get with some of the third party software and driver makers who are still having problems and help them.
3. Get those extra's and more to Ultimate users like they promised. No-one likes to be cheated on and this is causing a lot of customer 'bad feeling' and unneeded bad publicy for Microsoft.
Address these 'pretty big' issues and they should start winning the masses over and when I say masses I also mean the area that is most important to them too - the business sector - because at the moment most businesses will not touch it with a barge pole.
starkers
Reply #55 Monday, October 1, 2007 12:54 AM
Believe it or not, I know of companies still using Win2000...religiously adhering to it because XP, according to them, still hasn't proven itself.
Dunno whether or not that may be 'a why fix what ain't broken' or a cost saving thing, and it's not just in one or two companies, either. In fact, some are rather large Aussie businesses (insurance companies and the like), so it's not an isolated thing that's confined to small outfits.
In fact, I had a neighbour in Tasmania who ran a small volunteer organisation with 98SE as his OS of choice. He was adamant that XP was an over-bloated piece of crap that offered him nothing 98 couldn't, no matter what anyone said to the contrary.
I have to wonder how much of the dislike of Vista is a fear of change....people not wanting to step outside their comfort zone now that XP has become more stable/reliable.
Yeah, MS needs to address various Vista issues, but that was the same with XP in its infancy, wasn't it....now millions of people swear by XP as being most stable and THE OS of choice. Hopefully, MS will overcome these 'new OS' teething problems quickly and Vista is more widely accepted than it is now, because it is a good OS with great potential.
Reply #55 Monday, October 1, 2007 12:54 AM
because at the moment most businesses will not touch it with a barge pole.
Believe it or not, I know of companies still using Win2000...religiously adhering to it because XP, according to them, still hasn't proven itself.
Dunno whether or not that may be 'a why fix what ain't broken' or a cost saving thing, and it's not just in one or two companies, either. In fact, some are rather large Aussie businesses (insurance companies and the like), so it's not an isolated thing that's confined to small outfits.
In fact, I had a neighbour in Tasmania who ran a small volunteer organisation with 98SE as his OS of choice. He was adamant that XP was an over-bloated piece of crap that offered him nothing 98 couldn't, no matter what anyone said to the contrary.
I have to wonder how much of the dislike of Vista is a fear of change....people not wanting to step outside their comfort zone now that XP has become more stable/reliable.
Yeah, MS needs to address various Vista issues, but that was the same with XP in its infancy, wasn't it....now millions of people swear by XP as being most stable and THE OS of choice. Hopefully, MS will overcome these 'new OS' teething problems quickly and Vista is more widely accepted than it is now, because it is a good OS with great potential.
Leo the Lion
Reply #56 Monday, October 1, 2007 1:57 AM
Reply #56 Monday, October 1, 2007 1:57 AM
Starkers, I agree with many of your sentiments and like you I hope Microsoft overcome these difficulties because I firmly believe that Vista can still be a very good platform and an improvement on XP
ZubaZ
Reply #57 Monday, October 1, 2007 8:01 AM
Reply #57 Monday, October 1, 2007 8:01 AM
An OS is a tool to get your real job done. CP/M (MS-DOS), 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2k, XP, Vista, *nix, OSX, Amiga, BeOS, OS/2 . . whatever.
Does it run the apps you want?
Does it have the security level you need?
Does it run the hardware you have?
Everything else is marketing.
Until we had the newest version of whatever OS we use, we got by successfully with what came before. I run Vista and XP for the most part (I don't remember when I last booted my G4) and they both take me here to WC. Problem solved.
Does it run the apps you want?
Does it have the security level you need?
Does it run the hardware you have?
Everything else is marketing.
Until we had the newest version of whatever OS we use, we got by successfully with what came before. I run Vista and XP for the most part (I don't remember when I last booted my G4) and they both take me here to WC. Problem solved.
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Reply #41 Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:46 PM
MS would never do this unless the OEMs demanded it (by already offering this option). They lost the 2006 holiday sales season because of the initial Vista delay and they don't want to lose another one because of the current negative publicity.
As far as the holiday season goes, Apple will have a new OS X revision with bootcamp installed by default. The only way Jobs could go for the jugular even more would be to offer a Windows to OS X upgrade path for existing PCs. Fortunately for MS, I doubt Apple had enough programmers on hand to cover the iPhone and the new OS rev AND such an ambitious undertaking. As it was, a lot of the really interesting OS X developments won't make it into this new release because of the iPhone coding push.
Either way, it should be an interesting showdown.