Are we all too scared to 'rock the boat" ?
Sunday, April 29, 2007 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
.....Due to a recent discussion about a skin, I guess I thought I would bring the topic here so everybody could have a say and share their two cents worth on the matter..
and here is the meat of the question...." are we all too scared to rock the boat when it comes
to critisizing others work, especially when we know it could do with a little tuning and or guidance for improvement?"
I mean helpful critisism, not being mean to others, or saying rubbish like *plain ugly*...instead of just saying 'wow thats great' all the time...
and I guess another question to raise is...how many of us download a skin and test it before we comment?
or do we just comment? (then again i know some of us have to be frugal downloaders.. cause we havent subscribed yet......ect)
I guess the bottom line is......are we too 'touchy' to critisizm when someone gives it? why should others jump to defend if the critisizm is good and useable? especially if it's going to help the skinner....
Its a very intersting topic I think, and something that I think that we all need to address...specially since we are a community of skinners, and there is competition out there........
From my own point of view and experience, I nearly died when boopish actually critiqued my skin, FINALLY someone had pointed out things I could do to improve...it was heaven! 
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Reply #42 Monday, April 30, 2007 4:15 AM
Ya didit to me at the gui champs...its kinda a joke to a few of us...its not a singular event.
As were we...and you tsk tsked on us...I singled you out because we kept seeing a recurring Never Mind...as tho its ok for you to leave a snarky comment ,but not us.
Reply #43 Monday, April 30, 2007 4:48 AM
Lets let this thread get back to being a "discussion" please... and back to it's original topic. 
Got a beef? ...Please take it to PM. Thanks all.
Lucky you
It is disappointing for me to see senior members behaving in a way which could easily be misinterpreted. Lead by example.
Its nice to see a discussion about comments, it's an important area of learning for some people. Please remember though, the comment section is for comments, however large or small, not everyone is able to give a detailed critique. Feel free to say what you wish, but always be respectful - there is someone on the other end of your comment
+1
Reply #44 Monday, April 30, 2007 5:07 AM
Reply #45 Monday, April 30, 2007 6:29 AM
Reply #46 Monday, April 30, 2007 8:28 AM
I try not to be "critical" of other people's art. That's art and it's their vision. I may leave a comment on how *I* would make it different but that's not being critical. Finding an pointing out errors isn't art either. Telling an artist what I liked in a piece isn't criticism either. I don't want to be a critic here. I just want to share thoughts and opinions. Everyone can be a winner then.
This is true for skins or forum threads or anyplace dialog occurs. Calm, reasoned, discussion lifts us all.
(as an aside to Murex:)
Reply #47 Monday, April 30, 2007 9:05 AM
Don't just say it. Provide a link, so I can defend myself. I do remember not being able to comment and I did a test on one of your skins (which you were helpful on).
Maybe I asked a question and before anyone could answer I found out the answer and removed the question. I don't know because I don't have it in front of me to see what went on.
Please don't lie about me unless you have proof to back it up.
Don't just provide one link, show me them all, since I seem to say it all the time or as you put it "it's not a singular event".
I didn't single any one person out (on the skin in question), like you did me here.
If I recall there were more than one person commenting.
Reply #48 Monday, April 30, 2007 9:33 AM
Reply #49 Monday, April 30, 2007 9:39 AM
This is all from the same skin.
Comment #1(Master) Z71Feb 26, 2007 8:50 AM
Looks like a nice, clean and simple skin.
I read in your description, on the SS, components are toolbars and shell styles. Does it have animations, also?
Comment #23(Skinner) JJ YingFeb 27, 2007 7:49 PM
Though I used default arial fonts instead of Segoe UI in Ecliz Deluxe, but it seems that the titlbebar text bg issue still exists in certain systems, I will try to figure it out soon.
And sorry for the annoying thing to you guys
Comment #25(Master) Z71Feb 27, 2007 11:16 PM
Never mind....
My question was the very first comment.
My question went unanswered. I did find out the answer, so I left a never mind, so he didn't have to bother answering it later.
I guess I should have said. "Thank you for the skin. The question need not be answered now. I have found out for myself".
Maybe that would have cleared everything up.
Did anyone wonder why I left that message or did they come to the conclusion that I was just being rude, all by themselves.
Thanks for making me look like someone that doesn't care or is to good to leave comments.
Reply #50 Monday, April 30, 2007 9:48 AM
Yes, I did...ages ago...looked like it 'might' have been a response to a by-then deleted previous comment...which had me wondering who, how, and why [the deletion].
It probably WOULD be better if comments in response to others much earlier were given some form of reference.....saves confusion at least...
Now, let's just pretend this is done with...and get back specifically ON TOPIC....
Reply #51 Monday, April 30, 2007 9:48 AM
Reply #52 Monday, April 30, 2007 2:23 PM
Anyway, I'm over the whole issue and thx for Zubaz as usual being the voice of reason in the storm of controversy.
Reply #53 Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:17 AM
When I first came to WC, I was looking for the most dressed up skins I could find to cover up the Fischer Price look of XP - and I still look for and use this type of skin - but I've also found minimalistic skins to be more than useful when a wallpaper and icon set demand something less 'flowery' and/or intricate.
Like I said, there's no such thing as a 'bad' skin, because someone somewhere will like and happily use it, and that's all it takes to make it a good skin, regardless of any negative or untoward comments by those who happen not to fancy it. Therefore, I feel that negative and/or downright nasty comments can also be insulting to the users who like the skins, not just to the creator. Such things are not good for anyone involved in the community and are best left out so as to foster good-will rather than ill-will.
I don't have the talent, knowledge or expertise to advise skinners as to how they can technically skin various aspects of their skins any better, so I can only speak about what I like in the skin, or perhaps that I'd like to see something in addition to or aesthetically done differently....but as a suggestion rather than critique.
It may be considered a positive thing (by some) for some skinners/people around here to grow thicker skins, but it'd be more positive and peaceful if those with nothing nice to say actually said nothing at all.....cos ultimately it's far better to exchange pleasantries than engage in an avoidable altercation.
Reply #54 Wednesday, May 2, 2007 3:37 AM
Making such a scene over a percieved slight was and is not me.
Reply #56 Wednesday, May 2, 2007 9:01 AM
I know better than this. I should have taken it off the thread and cleared things up immediately.
I have no excuse. I'm hoping we can say that we all make mistakes and get back to normal.
My apologies, also, to Kitty for taking over the thread.
Reply #58 Wednesday, May 2, 2007 3:04 PM
Not at all very lenient, few categories to define it.
Constructive criticism is not defined by someone saying "it SHOULD be like this, or I would have done it THAT way". Sorry to say, that leaving comments on how YOU would have done it, is a moot point, and pompous to be direct. It's not your skin to say what the outcome should be. This goes for oil paintings, wallpapers, graphic design...etc, etc.
My view on constructive criticism, is HOW the skin reacts with the desktop environment. Some have noted that they download the theme, apply it...and see how well it responds to use. I seemed to see that the Control Panel issue runs rampant among starter skins, all the way up to the levels of JJ Ying, or VStyler... simple things, yet people get bashed for it with the words "needs to be fixed". Comments like "needs rollover buttons or I'm not going to use it"... WHAT!?!?! The skin is as it is. Use it, Like it....or not. No one's bending your arm over your head and up your anal region to get you to like it.
If you plan on offering true criticism, there are lots of ways to do this...so that the person creating the theme sees it thru YOUR eyes. Get that person to stand in front of that same mirror you're looking into so they can see what you do. I think more and more nowadays, people use things like "the start menu fonts look like shit" as an effort to compile constructive criticism, when, (like I've had to endure) it can boil down to an issue with a desktop setting, or worse, it didn't install correctly.
I've seen themes here get great attention....but in a real world, they are almost useless to use on a daily basis. Why? The artistry going into them is fantastic, but then you apply the theme to see that the window border size is GIGANTIC taking up valuable screen real estate. Or the bottom window frame is so small, that the typical program text that would otherwise show up at the bottom, isn't there anymore. As someone already pointed out, the DELETE button is there and it takes a millionth of a second to click, vs typing a long speech on how you disliked the theme and offer it as criticism.
In my little world, I appreciate the artistry of the themes I've seen over the years. It's come a long way... however, what makes a usable theme to me, isn't easy to find.
I'm not sure if anyone really noticed the full effect of the last GUI Championships...but in my opinion, a winning theme (not for the purpose of a prize) is a usable theme. Themes that tend to have nothing to them, or those that try and stuff ten pounds of crap in a five pound bag...well, it's like Hell, great place to visit, don't want to live there.
Remember, true criticism allows another to see things thru another's eyes...let the artist make the fixes if that is the proper course. Using your power as a "master" creator to thrust your opinions to reflect changes you want in a theme...(not reflecting on a master level user here, just those that have been around the block)...well, that's what you have Skin Studio for. Ask permission, and change it yourself to use.
Reply #59 Wednesday, May 2, 2007 3:30 PM
Criticism is a tough thing to pull off. Some handle it well, even when it's rude, brutal and coarse. Some handle it very poorly even if it's stated with the utmost care, respect and tact. The percieved tone of any feedback is mostly dependent on the artist receiving it.
I've seen cases where someone posted a comment about how they didn't like a skin because it was too transparent and made it hard for them to use. It was reasonably stated, honest, not hurtful or mean and was merely feedback from the user as to why they did not like the skin. The artist did not react well. (no, no links, names or any hints to help narrow down the specific instance). They were fine so long as all the feedback was positive. First sign of of a non-glowing review and things turned ugly. Friends of the artist turned on the dissenting view and were less than nice themselves. All because someone expressed an opinion.
With the exception of those who are just out-and-out-rude (NewJerseyDevil being a recent example), I think many people simply don't bother because posting anything that's an honest bit of feedback, but not necessarily fawning over the artist and their work, isn't worth the backlash that could very likely result. Some people just have a very thin skin and don't handle negative feedback well (even a constructive critique is seen as negative by some).
And as we've seen on even these forums many times over, sometimes a comment that was meant well enough by, can be misinterpreted as being mean and spiteful (or insincere with the overuse of smileys). So any comment that isn't 100% positive and praising has to run an obstacle course of tact, careful wording, and consideration of egos of all involved.
It's a lot of work to post a comment saying you might not like something about a skin or icon pack.
Reply #60 Wednesday, May 2, 2007 5:56 PM
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Reply #41 Monday, April 30, 2007 3:36 AM
I don't understand the "never Mind" bit. It showed up on my personal page and I asked you about it.
That was it. It's OK for you to do it but not me in asking?
Please show me some examples were I just left the remark never mind. Did I ever do it to you?
Oh, and thanks for the personal attack. I just left my opinion. You're acting like you're calling me out. I made an honest comment but now I'm being crusified.