Are we all too scared to 'rock the boat" ?
Sunday, April 29, 2007 by Vampothika | Discussion: Community
.....Due to a recent discussion about a skin, I guess I thought I would bring the topic here so everybody could have a say and share their two cents worth on the matter..
and here is the meat of the question...." are we all too scared to rock the boat when it comes
to critisizing others work, especially when we know it could do with a little tuning and or guidance for improvement?"
I mean helpful critisism, not being mean to others, or saying rubbish like *plain ugly*...instead of just saying 'wow thats great' all the time...
and I guess another question to raise is...how many of us download a skin and test it before we comment?
or do we just comment? (then again i know some of us have to be frugal downloaders.. cause we havent subscribed yet......ect)
I guess the bottom line is......are we too 'touchy' to critisizm when someone gives it? why should others jump to defend if the critisizm is good and useable? especially if it's going to help the skinner....
Its a very intersting topic I think, and something that I think that we all need to address...specially since we are a community of skinners, and there is competition out there........
From my own point of view and experience, I nearly died when boopish actually critiqued my skin, FINALLY someone had pointed out things I could do to improve...it was heaven! 
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Z71
Reply #22 Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:07 PM
I guess I should have explained it a little better. I meant making that person a partner and showing him the business side of skinning. I didn't mean the help skinning part.
I got carried away on the rant...
Reply #22 Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:07 PM
Why do you feel it was a waste of your time?
I guess I should have explained it a little better. I meant making that person a partner and showing him the business side of skinning. I didn't mean the help skinning part.
I got carried away on the rant...
unclerob
Reply #23 Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:48 PM
Reply #23 Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:48 PM
I still consider myself an amateur wb skinner, I know what really great skin work looks like (as do we all I'm sure) and what my personal preferences are (we each have our own). That being said, I appreciate almost all feedback I receive: good or bad.
The feedback I/we don't need is when someone makes a point of telling you that it looks like !@#$%, etc. That is useless feedback, profanity won't make my skin or any other skin on this site look better - I'd like to see that type of hurtful profanity removed (but again that's just me, I can't force that type of rule on anyone).
If you don't like a skin that someone has made, I think it's good to say so but don't just leave it at that. If someone tells me that they don't like one of my skins and leave it at that, I have no idea what I've done wrong, what area I should focus on to improve, if it's just a general lack of artistic ability on my part or lack of technical ability that turns a success into a failure.
The comment section on a person's skin can definitely handle a few words, so I would say make use of the space (but that's just my humble opinion, no one is forced to do anything and should never feel that they are). Help can come in many forms, you don't need to be give a person a skin tutorial but you can tell them what you would have liked to see that would have made a certain skin better or more appealing to you.
This discussion has had many different viewpoints, one thing that stands out as a good thing is that it remained a mature discussion; I've been on some other forums where stuff can get downright ugly, I'm glad I haven't seen that happen too much on this site.
The feedback I/we don't need is when someone makes a point of telling you that it looks like !@#$%, etc. That is useless feedback, profanity won't make my skin or any other skin on this site look better - I'd like to see that type of hurtful profanity removed (but again that's just me, I can't force that type of rule on anyone).
If you don't like a skin that someone has made, I think it's good to say so but don't just leave it at that. If someone tells me that they don't like one of my skins and leave it at that, I have no idea what I've done wrong, what area I should focus on to improve, if it's just a general lack of artistic ability on my part or lack of technical ability that turns a success into a failure.
The comment section on a person's skin can definitely handle a few words, so I would say make use of the space (but that's just my humble opinion, no one is forced to do anything and should never feel that they are). Help can come in many forms, you don't need to be give a person a skin tutorial but you can tell them what you would have liked to see that would have made a certain skin better or more appealing to you.
This discussion has had many different viewpoints, one thing that stands out as a good thing is that it remained a mature discussion; I've been on some other forums where stuff can get downright ugly, I'm glad I haven't seen that happen too much on this site.
elvee
Reply #24 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:28 PM
Reply #24 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:28 PM
Honesty is the best policy....but what about in my case? I am not a skinner but over the years, I have gotten good at noticing things good and/or not so. I download a skin and try it out. It looks good but I find a discrepancy. Well i can point it out to the person but not being a Skinner I cannot tell how to fix it. So what do I do? I can't just say 'nice skin bud but you have a problem" and leave it at that. The best i can do is to let them know what i found and try to point them in the right direction in the form of tutorials. For some, trying to figure something out from a tutorial is not enough. They could use some 'ojt' from experienced skinners. Now before some feathers get ruffled...I am not saying that Skinners are obligated to help everyone that ask. Some really don't have the extra time. It's just that Some people learn better by listening(or in this case Reading) and some learn better by watching.
unclerob
Reply #25 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:52 PM
Reply #25 Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:52 PM
to answer that 2nd question (which I could have added to previous verbose post), I pretty much download as much as I want, I have a wincustomize subscription which entitles me to limitless downloads on the site so any skin I have ever commented on was tested by myself before leaving feedback.
Nicholasworld
Reply #26 Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:34 PM
Reply #26 Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:34 PM
The issue isn't being a dilettantish or pedagogic. It should be given the newbie a encouraging suggestions whether it matches personal taste or not. However as those 2 vaudevillians did,it would escape apiring stars undoubtedly. Besides,what the rating system for??? No wonder it been existed from old Wincustomize.
On being constructive,it's moot point. You would see some skinner didn't take those words to their chink easily,more correctly said,unabashedly incorrigible.
On being constructive,it's moot point. You would see some skinner didn't take those words to their chink easily,more correctly said,unabashedly incorrigible.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #27 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:03 AM
Reply #27 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:03 AM
Greetings friend Nicholas,always a pleasure. 
Chris is no newbie.Nicholas,you spew more venom than anyone...how appropriate to see you here.
The first time since I have been here at Winc and I express a severe negative reaction to a skin and its a horrible crime.Tarnished my halo and slipped from grace.
Called out by fellow 'Master'Z71 for hate comments...best known for the ultrasnide 'Never Mind'...as tho commenting on your work was beneath him.Real class,hit and run.
Should have seen the reception Not of This Earth got at Neowin...WOW!They HATED it!
Said it looked like I was new to skinning...didnt lose a wink o' sleep over that.
Chris is no newbie.Nicholas,you spew more venom than anyone...how appropriate to see you here.
The first time since I have been here at Winc and I express a severe negative reaction to a skin and its a horrible crime.Tarnished my halo and slipped from grace.
Called out by fellow 'Master'Z71 for hate comments...best known for the ultrasnide 'Never Mind'...as tho commenting on your work was beneath him.Real class,hit and run.
Should have seen the reception Not of This Earth got at Neowin...WOW!They HATED it!
Said it looked like I was new to skinning...didnt lose a wink o' sleep over that.
Nicholasworld
Reply #28 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:13 AM
Drawing the red herring across this thread. What is apposite would be judged by Mods with/without odious words.
Reply #28 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:13 AM
.Nicholas,you spew more venom than anyone...how appropriate to see you here.
Drawing the red herring across this thread. What is apposite would be judged by Mods with/without odious words.
boss0190
Reply #29 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:25 AM
Reply #29 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:25 AM
You both should have just kept your mouths shut in the first place.
vStyler
Reply #30 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:26 AM
Same here. Shows you who your friends are at the very least.
@ nicholasworld.. one day my friend Im going to expose you not only for WHO you are but for the FAKE you are. YOU above everyone haven't the right to say a DAMN thing to me especially the lies and spin you seem to spew in EVERY single one of my submissions.. YOu a little jealous of me?..You want to rattle my cage?.. go ahead.. just dont ask for redemption when I eventually come down on you like a TON of bricks my friend. You accuse me ONE more time of copying or stealing and I WILL have you banned. I have kept very detailed records of your unsubstantiated slander with regards to my work.
@ Z71.. what exactly does going into people's threads and leaving "..nevermind" mean? Sounds like your own little version of hate talk to me. If you wanna say something, SAY it brother. Act like you got a pair
In life .. you get what you give.. I give 99% encouragement, check my posts and PLEASE someone prove me wrong...I have put up with the nastiest comments imaginable on my way to where I am today and I'll be damned if someone is going to try knock me down because of one negative comment on a skin that IMO deserves VERY little respect from a community of skinners that in some cases give their heart and soul to provide THE very best that is posssible by way of useabilty via imagination and innovation.
Last time I post in this thread so feel free to take your shots now.
Reply #30 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:26 AM
The first time since I have been here at Winc and I express a severe negative reaction to a skin and its a horrible crime
Same here. Shows you who your friends are at the very least.
@ nicholasworld.. one day my friend Im going to expose you not only for WHO you are but for the FAKE you are. YOU above everyone haven't the right to say a DAMN thing to me especially the lies and spin you seem to spew in EVERY single one of my submissions.. YOu a little jealous of me?..You want to rattle my cage?.. go ahead.. just dont ask for redemption when I eventually come down on you like a TON of bricks my friend.
You accuse me ONE more time of copying or stealing and I WILL have you banned. I have kept very detailed records of your unsubstantiated slander with regards to my work.@ Z71.. what exactly does going into people's threads and leaving "..nevermind" mean? Sounds like your own little version of hate talk to me. If you wanna say something, SAY it brother. Act like you got a pair
In life .. you get what you give.. I give 99% encouragement, check my posts and PLEASE someone prove me wrong...I have put up with the nastiest comments imaginable on my way to where I am today and I'll be damned if someone is going to try knock me down because of one negative comment on a skin that IMO deserves VERY little respect from a community of skinners that in some cases give their heart and soul to provide THE very best that is posssible by way of useabilty via imagination and innovation.
Last time I post in this thread so feel free to take your shots now.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #31 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:34 AM
That is becoming painfully clear.
mutter mutter...this is why I usually steer clear of the drama around here...just distracts me from skinning.I'll go crawl back in me hole now...this damn prednisone makes me mean.
Reply #31 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:34 AM
You both should have just kept your mouths shut in the first place.
That is becoming painfully clear.
mutter mutter...this is why I usually steer clear of the drama around here...just distracts me from skinning.I'll go crawl back in me hole now...this damn prednisone makes me mean.
Erk.
Reply #32 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:46 AM
Reply #32 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:46 AM
Lets let this thread get back to being a "discussion" please... and back to it's original topic.
Got a beef? ...Please take it to PM. Thanks all.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #33 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Reply #33 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Yeah,I sent Chris a message...still dont like the skin but I apologized fer the joyless soul remark. 
MSethWeisberg
Reply #34 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:55 AM
Reply #34 Monday, April 30, 2007 12:55 AM
I will break it into 2 worlds:
The real world: I am not afraid to give my opinion of what is good and bad happening at work or at home. I have been told that is not the greatest trait of mine but that is me. On the other hand I have a very good sarcastic humor to me that off sets it.
Artistic skinning: I am still somewhat new to it. I don't skin much, I help people snuff out bugs from the skins they are making. But I won't hesitate to offer up my opinion.
The real world: I am not afraid to give my opinion of what is good and bad happening at work or at home. I have been told that is not the greatest trait of mine but that is me. On the other hand I have a very good sarcastic humor to me that off sets it.
Artistic skinning: I am still somewhat new to it. I don't skin much, I help people snuff out bugs from the skins they are making. But I won't hesitate to offer up my opinion.
Uvah
Reply #36 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:31 AM
Reply #36 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:31 AM
On May something 2007 I'll be with WC one year. I've been skinning rainlendar about two maybe three months...I think...My latest, Windowblinds Collection, got two and a half stars. That's fine with me and MySecret told me that some of them had white around them. My mistake was not making the background transparent and I uploaded them as such. I spent my first vacation in three years, a total of nine days, working on them. At times I got so confused between so many that I forgot to do that. I prefer honesty...if something is wrong say so. If you know a better way and there are those who do, I'm still a newbie, tell me...don't pull no punches...I don't expect each one to be perfect. Perfection is an illusion, therefore unattainable, it can only be as good as the time you are willing to spend on it and whether or not you want it to be better than what you have done before.
To use profanity in my view is unacceptable. It says only one thing, you either can't do and/or match the quality of someone else's work or you just plain don't care.
I have downloaded skins of all kinds. In truth I just can't get enough. My rainy folder has over 400 skins! My windowblinds I have archived with 300 in it, same with sysmetrix.
I guess you could call me a hoarder and that wouldn't be far from the truth. I don't always comment on skins I DL...but I do use them. In all honesty I change my desktop once a day, sometimes twice. There isn't one better than the next, just different, unique in it's own way. I love the diversity. If I were to try and emulate all the different styles I'd go totally bananas. I can only do my own thing and if there are those who like them, fine...if not that's fine too. The ratings to me are irrelevent...what is relevent is that they are out there for the masses to see. I like to see my rainies up there. This whole thing of being part of something is very dear to me...I've not had that before.
To use profanity in my view is unacceptable. It says only one thing, you either can't do and/or match the quality of someone else's work or you just plain don't care.
I have downloaded skins of all kinds. In truth I just can't get enough. My rainy folder has over 400 skins! My windowblinds I have archived with 300 in it, same with sysmetrix.
I guess you could call me a hoarder and that wouldn't be far from the truth. I don't always comment on skins I DL...but I do use them. In all honesty I change my desktop once a day, sometimes twice. There isn't one better than the next, just different, unique in it's own way. I love the diversity. If I were to try and emulate all the different styles I'd go totally bananas. I can only do my own thing and if there are those who like them, fine...if not that's fine too. The ratings to me are irrelevent...what is relevent is that they are out there for the masses to see. I like to see my rainies up there. This whole thing of being part of something is very dear to me...I've not had that before.
buzzh58
Reply #37 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:52 AM
Reply #37 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:52 AM
I dont want to debate the rights or wrongs of the arguments going on in this thread but VStyler, I would be interested to know why the big turnaround in attitude toward Chris's first blind 'Dew', in which you left a rather pleasant comment, and this latest one. They are both, after all, of the same "minimalistic" style.
cybermessiah
Reply #38 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:57 AM
Reply #38 Monday, April 30, 2007 1:57 AM
to elaborate......
to suggest that someones skin is undserverving of respect wthin the community is, to me, kind of defeating te purpose of this site.
Sure, there may be skins that we personally dont like but it still desrves respect in the fact that it may be a serious attempt by an individual to create something that they wish to share.
Offer some suggestions of how you think it could be better improved to bring it up to a standard which you yourself would find acceptable ie. colorization changes, tab changes etc.
Personally, I recieved great constructive criticism on a WB i submitted here and the info I got helped me only improve it in my and everyone elses opinion.
But in the last 18 months,browsing through comments on skins, I have seen more and more comments that are not helpful to making the skin more aesthetically pleasing...comments that are fueled by egos in some cases just plain meaness.
There is an easy way to aviod this...just dont upload ur skins and use them for personal use. Perhaps we have seen and will see more of this in the future...though i hardly think that is going to be adventageous to the skinning community.
@ VStyler... I admire your work alot and have held u in high regard as both a great skinner and on most occasions, genereous to give helpful insights, but, as far as I think....every skin....whether it be to your personal taste or not...if accepted into the library....is totally desrving of respect by the skinnning community.
to suggest that someones skin is undserverving of respect wthin the community is, to me, kind of defeating te purpose of this site.
Sure, there may be skins that we personally dont like but it still desrves respect in the fact that it may be a serious attempt by an individual to create something that they wish to share.
Offer some suggestions of how you think it could be better improved to bring it up to a standard which you yourself would find acceptable ie. colorization changes, tab changes etc.
Personally, I recieved great constructive criticism on a WB i submitted here and the info I got helped me only improve it in my and everyone elses opinion.
But in the last 18 months,browsing through comments on skins, I have seen more and more comments that are not helpful to making the skin more aesthetically pleasing...comments that are fueled by egos in some cases just plain meaness.
There is an easy way to aviod this...just dont upload ur skins and use them for personal use. Perhaps we have seen and will see more of this in the future...though i hardly think that is going to be adventageous to the skinning community.
@ VStyler... I admire your work alot and have held u in high regard as both a great skinner and on most occasions, genereous to give helpful insights, but, as far as I think....every skin....whether it be to your personal taste or not...if accepted into the library....is totally desrving of respect by the skinnning community.
BoXXi
Reply #39 Monday, April 30, 2007 2:36 AM
Reply #39 Monday, April 30, 2007 2:36 AM
Some days I'm glad I'm not involved in all this any more.............. 
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #40 Monday, April 30, 2007 3:29 AM
Reply #40 Monday, April 30, 2007 3:29 AM
Lucky you
It is disappointing for me to see senior members behaving in a way which could easily be misinterpreted. Lead by example.
Its nice to see a discussion about comments, it's an important area of learning for some people. Please remember though, the comment section is for comments, however large or small, not everyone is able to give a detailed critique. Feel free to say what you wish, but always be respectful - there is someone on the other end of your comment
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Reply #21 Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:19 PM
as long as people are nice about it...then critacism is okay.